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If America adopts Canada's health care system

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I don't know where you studied economics, but that statement doesn't make sense.

Sorry-You are correct.  I should have said  :p  that ratcheting up prices will not happen where there are many practitioners and this will cause some to move into more specialized fields where the margins are better.  Does that fix it?

Remember, it takes about a decade for a specialist to be trained and given current
conditions I wouldn't expect any free market miracle.

There has been a deliberate effort on the part of government to hold costs down.
If these controls are removed we will find a new normal.

I don't think we can compare computers to health care.
Computers are designed to sold.  As such, longevity of computers and all
consumer products have declined somewhat we can reasonably expect to
replace a computer in a short time. 
This time frame has grown shorter.
The other issue is that computer purchases are largely optional. 
Healthcare is not. To make your commoditization comment more relevant
I think we would have to consider flying to India for a kidney transplant, or
China for a hip replacement.

I think it's more reasonable to compare healthcare to public utilities that have
been privatized.  The results here have not been beneficial.


 
Quote
1. Reduce costs - ie. services rendered
- or become more innovative and find practical methods of delivering the SAME services.

Recce Soldier,

What methods do you imagine they would develop that they are not free to develop
now?  I can describe several initiatives that have occured in the existing system.

 
Flip said:
Recce Soldier,

What methods do you imagine they would develop that they are not free to develop
now?  I can describe several initiatives that have occured in the existing system.

A great deal of what we spend on Healthcare is currently eaten up by a huge and inneficcient bureaucracy.  I'm not a Doctor so I was not commenting on medical advancements.

Also is the lack of Doctors that you alluded to a result of not enough doctors being trained or is it that the doctors that are being trained are exercizing their choice in a free market and going where they can make more money and pay less tax?  It's interesting to note when considering this that 30% of our taxes in this country go to healthcare...

Cause, meet effect.
 
So, I think we can agree that the trouble with healthcare today is -
drum roll please - The suits who are mis-managing it .......

The bloated bureaucracy and the shortage of training can be directly
linked to bad choices made by government in the 80's and 90's.

The trend to train fewer nurses and doctors was a collective
NorthAmerican wide mistake.  There's why they could make so
much more by emigrating.

My point has always been that if we manage the system more
responsibly we can have the healthcare system we are paying for.

The drive to privatize(in my opinion) has been a very destructive
distraction from the real issue.  As a tax payer, I'm not getting what
I'm paying for and I wanna talk to the management! :rage:

 
Flip said:
As a tax payer, I'm not getting what
I'm paying for and I wanna talk to the management! :rage: 

And the management has heard your complaint, but because you can't vote not to pay your taxes they just smile and nod.

Thanks for participating.  See you next election where you will have the opportunity to repeat your first mistake and relinquish control to a new set of officials who will also smile and nod when you complain.
 
See you next election where you will have the opportunity to repeat your first mistake and relinquish control to a new set of officials who will also smile and nod when you complain.
:cheers:

Actually, we might get some change here in Alberta.
King Ralph is gone and we might just NOT continue the
PC dynasty.

Sorry, I don't assume a large corporation is going to be any
more responsive to my issues or any one else's.
Just like the energy deregulation - I'm free to sign
a contract and pay someone else more if I don't like
how my gas is packaged.  ;D

 
Many of the privitizations were botched because governments remained large and intrusive partners in the enterprise. Perhaps the biggest "booby prize" goes to California, which wrote degegulation rules in such a way as to privitize PG&E but prevent the entry of competitors to the energy market. (Most of the energy sector deregulations across N America suffer from similar flaws, but not to the same extent). ENRON discoverd a loophole when PG&E was unable to keep up with demand, and "wheeled" power from neighbouring states to the California grid at peak prices. Regulatory failure rewarded ENRON with great profits, but of course the spin wasn't against the stupid State Representatives and Bureaucrats who created the situation in the first place, but against the company which exploited their mistake.

Suggesting hapless Canadian politicians and bureaucrats would not make similar errors of comprable magnitude is a touching expression of faith, but real world evidence is not in favor of that proposition (to say the least).

 
Flip said:
:cheers:

Actually, we might get some change here in Alberta.
King Ralph is gone and we might just NOT continue the
PC dynasty.

Sorry, I don't assume a large corporation is going to be any
more responsive to my issues or any one else's.
Just like the energy deregulation - I'm free to sign
a contract and pay someone else more if I don't like
how my gas is packaged.  ;D

You continue to refer to the energy deregulation do you honestly believe the price you pay for energy is significantly and artificially inflated today?  I don't.  To do so is to disregard the fact that our energy consumption has outpaced our supply.
 
You continue to refer to the energy deregulation do you honestly believe the price you pay for energy is significantly and artificially inflated today?
At my business and at home I have been offered contracts rather than to continue with the default program set out by government.
Consumers in Alberta have been badgered and pressured for years to sign on the dotted line.
One scheme even mailed out $100 cheques - if it's cashed , we have a deal!

In EVERY instance and example, the deal offered would have cost me significantly more.

I also see actual consumption figures removed from bills and user fees increased.
So, Yes I would expect to pay more for an alternate health care system,

Edit to add;

Last month my wife and I bought life and critical care insurance.
Last week we got the contracts from the insurance company.
We had 10 days to cancel - We got the papers after many changes to
our application and long after the cancelation date.

We got boned.
We now have to pay significantly more than we signed on for.

If you think this is a good thing to add to our healthcare riddle - I Don't agree.



 
Flip said:
At my business and at home I have been offered contracts rather than to continue with the default program set out by government.
Consumers in Alberta have been badgered and pressured for years to sign on the dotted line.
One scheme even mailed out $100 cheques - if it's cashed , we have a deal!

In EVERY instance and example, the deal offered would have cost me significantly more.

I also see actual consumption figures removed from bills and user fees increased.
So, Yes I would expect to pay more for an alternate health care system,

So you have a choice to lock in or ride the market price and you choose not to lock in.  Good for you.

Now as far as healthcare is concerned you prefer to be locked in to a system that does not provide what it says it will, will not give you a choice about what is covered and what is not and can not give you more (or less) value for your money based on your choice.  It will not show you the actual consumption figures and every year your user fees (taxes) are increased without a proportionate increase in service.

You're beginning to sound a little bi-polar there Flip.  ;)
 
Ok...I've seen the back-and-forth of Canadian vs. American systems...

Now what I would like to know, is why can we not adopt European mixed systems with low public costs and superior treatment, care and outcomes?  In places like France, Germany and Switzerland, everyone has quick access to private and public facilities, paid for by public funds.  No one goes without, and public healthcare costs are under control, compared to our fair Dominion.

If I recall correctly, last week a study compared our outcomes to other industrialised nations.  We were near the bottom and European countries were at the top.  And we spend a far greater chunk of our government budgets on healthcare than the Europeans do.

I'm sick of this asinine "us and them" debate.  As far as I'm concerned, it's not an either/or (100% public/100% free market) debate.  Why will European solutions not work here?
 
Well, for one thing, they aren't burdened by incompetent bureaucracies creating newer more efficient ways to mismanage our files, money and services in creating even more bureaucracies who hire consultants to study why they haven't become more efficient, only to not pay any heed to said papers or to create more consulting jobs to study what has already been studied in order to find a different solution, thus needing an even larger bureaucracy to administer creating even more jobs, sucking up more from the Public Purse.    ;D
 
I'm sick of this asinine "us and them" debate.  As far as I'm concerned, it's not an either/or (100% public/100% free market) debate.  Why will European solutions not work here?

That's probably a fair point.  We have turned this into a public vs. private debate
and I have said that it's the wrong question in addition to the wrong answer.

To be honest I don't know much about the european systems of healthcare.
But I do know "Americanizing" our system is a non-starter.

I guess it's worth more study.

I hit the "post" button and George has jumped in!

I think there is an issue of proximity - The American system is bound to have some
effect on ours. Many Canadian physicians have worked in the American system and
many of the supplies come from the same sources.  In a sense our system is in
competion with theirs. And there is also the simple truth that outcomes have been affected by
artificial means.  Chop the budget = close the beds = people die out in the hall.



 
RangerRay, your answer is found in Flip's post. 

Flip, I'm sorry but I'm going to incorrectly use this for a moment ;)

Flip said:
But I do know "Americanizing" our system is a non-starter.

That line, and that line alone would be used by (in my opinion) every special interest and all three opposition parties in the current HOC to beat the Canadian population about the head and shoulders until they believed that was indeed what it is all about.

If you don't believe me recall if you will the Harris governments plan to have a private for profit company to build and administer the new Royal Ottawa Hospital.  I can't tell you how many times I heard that phrase or sound bites with that sentiment during the election.  Hell there were even claims that the buildings private ownership would encourage two tier healthcare.  :blotto:

I'd like to see what the free market could do, but I would not be against a compromise like, it seems, the left is.
 
Damn!
That line, and that line alone would be used by (in my opinion) every special interest and all three opposition parties in the current HOC to beat the Canadian population about the head and shoulders until they believed that was indeed what it is all about.
You got me!

I think compromise is not so much the issue as information is.

Let me rephrase if you would.

Privatization for privatisation's sake is the practice of idiology - miss spelling intended  ;)
In Alberta that's exactly what's gone on.

Sorry if I come out like a knob, That's my perspective.



 
Flip said:
Damn!You got me!

I think compromise is not so much the issue as information is.

Let me rephrase if you would.

Privatization for privatisation's sake is the practice of idiology - miss spelling intended  ;)
In Alberta that's exactly what's gone on.

Flip, once again thanks for the time and energy you are devoting to this discussion on universal health care.
I find your contributions clear and informed.

:salute:
 
This position paper by the American College of Physicians recently published in Annals of Internal Medicine may be of interest to some.  It is a comprehensive (and lengthy) article.  While it is from an American perspective, some of it can be applied to the Canadian debate on health care reform.

Achieving a High-Performance Health Care System with Universal Access: What the United States Can Learn from Other Countries
This position paper concerns improving health care in the United States. Unlike previous highly focused policy papers by the American College of Physicians, this article takes a comprehensive approach to improving access, quality, and efficiency of care. The first part describes health care in the United States. The second compares it with health care in other countries. The concluding section proposes lessons that the United States can learn from these countries and recommendations for achieving a high-performance health care system in the United States. The articles are based on a position paper developed by the American College of Physicians' Health and Public Policy Committee. This policy paper (not included in this article) also provides a detailed analysis of health care systems in 12 other industrialized countries.

Although we can learn much from other health systems, the College recognizes that our political and social culture, demographics, and form of government will shape any solution for the United States. This caution notwithstanding, we have identified several approaches that have worked well for countries like ours and could probably be adapted to the unique circumstances in the United States.

The "political and social culture, demographics, and form of government" is, in my opinion, a  very significant factor (maybe the most important factor) in the how and why the health care system of the United States (and other countries) developed as it has.  It should be kept in mind that this also applies to Canada, maybe more so than any other country.  Not only do we see ourselves in our own mirror, we (more than any other country) have a background reflection of our neighours to the south to which we always compare ourselves.  Yes, there are better performing health care models in other countries and yes, some of the things they are doing may be the answer to some of our problems.  But keep in mind that their systems (like ours) developed from their political and social culture and must be examined in that light.

 
Baden Guy, Thankyou for your encouragement and support!

Backadder thankyou for the most relevant post on this thread in a while!  ;)

This thread is the only one where I don't feel like I might as well be
in the silly buggers club.

I'm not a troll, I am a human being!  ;D
( with humble apologies to John Merrick )
 
Thanks for the link Blackadder, very interesting article. Maybe there is hope for those dam Yankees yet. :)

As you say heath care that Americans receive is particular to their cultural and historical background.

It is sad that a country of such wealth has so many receiving inadequate care as cited in the article.

 
Now this I find interesting. A lot of this article hits on the conundrum a universal care system faces.
You haave the money to buy appropriate timely care for your loved one but our system has no means to allow that to happen.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/21/world/europe/21britain.html?em&ex=1203829200&en=4080ecd5da2fc01c&ei=5087%0A

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

February 21, 2008
Paying Patients Test British Health Care System
By SARAH LYALL
LONDON — Created 60 years ago as a cornerstone of the British welfare state, the National Health Service is devoted to the principle of free medical care for everyone. But recently it has been wrestling with a problem its founders never anticipated: how to handle patients with complex illnesses who want to pay for parts of their treatment while receiving the rest free from the health service.

Although the government is reluctant to discuss the issue, hopscotching back and forth between private and public care has long been standard here for those who can afford it. But a few recent cases have exposed fundamental contradictions between policy and practice in the system, and tested its founding philosophy to its very limits.

One such case was Debbie Hirst’s. Her breast cancer had metastasized, and the health service would not provide her with Avastin, a drug that is widely used in the United States and Europe to keep such cancers at bay. So, with her oncologist’s support, she decided last year to try to pay the $120,000 cost herself, while continuing with the rest of her publicly financed treatment.

By December, she had raised $20,000 and was preparing to sell her house to raise more. But then the government, which had tacitly allowed such arrangements before, put its foot down. Mrs. Hirst heard the news from her doctor.

“He looked at me and said: ‘I’m so sorry, Debbie. I’ve had my wrists slapped from the people upstairs, and I can no longer offer you that service,’ ” Mrs. Hirst said in an interview.

“I said, ‘Where does that leave me?’ He said, ‘If you pay for Avastin, you’ll have to pay for everything’ ” — in other words, for all her cancer treatment, far more than she could afford.

Officials said that allowing Mrs. Hirst and others like her to pay for extra drugs to supplement government care would violate the philosophy of the health service by giving richer patients an unfair advantage over poorer ones.

Patients “cannot, in one episode of treatment, be treated on the N.H.S. and then allowed, as part of the same episode and the same treatment, to pay money for more drugs,” the health secretary, Alan Johnson, told Parliament.

“That way lies the end of the founding principles of the N.H.S.,” Mr. Johnson said.

But Mrs. Hirst, 57, whose cancer was diagnosed in 1999, went to the news media, and so did other patients in similar situations. And it became clear that theirs were not isolated cases.

In fact, patients, doctors and officials across the health care system widely acknowledge that patients suffering from every imaginable complaint regularly pay for some parts of their treatment while receiving the rest free.

“Of course it’s going on in the N.H.S. all the time, but a lot of it is hidden — it’s not explicit,” said Dr. Paul Charlson, a general practitioner in Yorkshire and a member of Doctors for Reform, a group that is highly critical of the health service. Last year, he was a co-author of a paper laying out examples of how patients with the initiative and the money dip in and out of the system, in effect buying upgrades to their basic free medical care.

“People swap from public to private sector all the time, and they’re topping up for virtually everything,” Dr. Charlson said in an interview. For instance, he said, a patient put on a five-month waiting list to see an orthopedic surgeon may pay $250 for a private consultation, and then switch back to the health service for the actual operation from the same doctor.

“Or they’ll buy an M.R.I. scan because the wait is so long, and then take the results back to the N.H.S.,” Dr. Charlson said.

In his paper, he also wrote about a 46-year-old woman with breast cancer who paid $250 for a second opinion when the health service refused to provide her with one; an elderly man who spent thousands of dollars on a new hearing aid instead of enduring a yearlong wait on the health service; and a 29-year-old woman who, with her doctor’s blessing, bought a three-month supply of Tarceva, a drug to treat pancreatic cancer, for more than $6,000 on the Internet because she could not get it through the N.H.S.

Asked why these were different from cases like Mrs. Hirst’s, a spokeswoman for the health service said no officials were available to comment.

In any case, the rules about private co-payments, as they are called, in cancer care are contradictory and hard to understand, said Nigel Edwards, the director of policy for the N.H.S. Confederation, which represents hospitals and other health care providers. “I’ve had conflicting advice from different lawyers,” he said, “but it does seem like a violation of natural justice to say that either you don’t get the drug you want, or you have to pay for all your treatment.”

Karol Sikora, a professor of cancer medicine at the Imperial College School of Medicine and one of Dr. Charlson’s co-authors, said that co-payments were particularly prevalent in cancer care. Armed with information from the Internet and patients’ networks, cancer patients are increasingly likely to demand, and pay for, cutting-edge drugs that the health service considers too expensive to be cost-effective.

“You have a population that is informed and consumerist about how it behaves about health care information, and an N.H.S. that can no longer afford to pay for everything for everybody,” he said.

Professor Sikora said oncologists were adept at circumventing the system by, for example, referring patients to other doctors who can provide the private medication separately. As wrenching as it can be to administer more sophisticated drugs to some patients than to others, he said, “if you’re a doctor working in the system, you should let your patients have the treatment they want, if they can afford to pay for it.”

In any case, he said, the health service is riddled with inequities. Some drugs are available in some parts of the country but not in others. Waiting lists for treatment vary wildly from place to place. Some regions spend $280 per capita on cancer care, Professor Sikora said, while others spend just $90.

In Mrs. Hirst’s case, the confusion was compounded by the fact that three other patients at her hospital were already doing what she had been forbidden to do — buying extra drugs to supplement their cancer care. The arrangements had “evolved without anyone questioning whether it was right or wrong,” said Laura Mason, a hospital spokeswoman. Because their treatment began before the Health Department explicitly condemned the practice, they have been allowed to continue.

The rules are confusing. “It’s quite a fine line,” Ms. Mason said. “You can’t have a course of N.H.S. and private treatment at the same time on the same appointment — for instance, if a particular drug has to be administered alongside another drug which is N.H.S.-funded.” But, she said, the health service rules seem to allow patients to receive the drugs during separate hospital visits — the N.H.S. drugs during an N.H.S. appointment, the extra drugs during a private appointment.

One of Mrs. Hirst’s troubles came, it seems, because the Avastin she proposed to pay for would have had to be administered at the same time as the drug Taxol, which she was receiving free on the health service. Because of that, she could not schedule separate appointments.

But in a final irony, Mrs. Hirst was told early this month that her cancer had spread and that her condition had deteriorated so much that she could have the Avastin after all — paid for by the health service. In other words, a system that forbade her to buy the medicine earlier was now saying that she was so sick she could have it at public expense.

Mrs. Hirst is pleased, but up to a point. Avastin is not a cure, but a way to extend her life, perhaps only by several months, and she has missed valuable time. “It may be too bloody late,” she said.

“I’m a person who left school at 15 and I’ve worked all my life and I’ve paid into the system, and I’m not going to live long enough to get my old-age pension from this government,” she added.

She also knows that the drug can have grave side effects. “I have campaigned for this drug, and if it goes wrong and kills me, c’est la vie,” she said. But, she said, speaking of the government, “If the drug doesn’t have a fair chance because the cancer has advanced so much, then they should be raked over the coals for it.”

 
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