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If America adopts Canada's health care system

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Baden,

So sad, but there are two thoughts that occur.......

The first and obvious. This is a case where the system is being managed to death.
Thank an MHA. >:D

Second and parhaps a little cold. If you take the flip side of her argument and
consider the many more people who are or would be denied treatment because
they can't pay for it......

Well the calculus is grim, but patient mortality is reduced from anecdotes to
numbers for a reason.
 
Flip said:
Baden,

So sad, but there are two thoughts that occur.......

The first and obvious. This is a case where the system is being managed to death.
Thank an MHA. >:D

Second and perhaps a little cold. If you take the flip side of her argument and
consider the many more people who are or would be denied treatment because
they can't pay for it......

Well the calculus is grim, but patient mortality is reduced from anecdotes to
numbers for a reason.

Of course this is with the appreciation that many people in Canada are already going across the border to practice their own version of two tier care.
And second that many provinces are delisting many parts of the health program that require out of pocket expense.
Oh and third, someone real close to me is a MHA.  :)
 
Socialized medicine in the UK: meeting their targets

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=515332&in_page_id=1770

A&E patients left in ambulances for up to FIVE hours 'so trusts can meet government targets'
By DANIEL MARTIN - More by this author » Last updated at 01:01am on 18th February 2008

Seriously ill patients are being kept in ambulances outside hospitals for hours so NHS trusts do not miss Government targets.

Thousands of people a year are having to wait outside accident and emergency departments because trusts will not let them in until they can treat them within four hours, in line with a Labour pledge.

The hold-ups mean ambulances are not available to answer fresh 999 calls.

Doctors warned last night that the practice of "patient-stacking" was putting patients' health at risk.

Figures obtained by the Liberal Democrats show that last year 43,576 patients waited longer than one hour before being let into emergency units.

More than 40,000 patients were kept in ambulances for at least an hour before entering A&E last year

Only seven out of 11 ambulance trusts responded to the survey, so the true figure could be far higher.

Liberal Democrat health spokesman Norman Lamb is writing to health secretary Alan Johnson to demand an urgent investigation into the practice.

"This is evidence of shocking systematic failure in our emergency services," he said.

Labour brought in the four-hour A&E target to end the scandal of patients waiting for days in casualty or being kept on trolleys in corridors.

But a shortage of out-of-hours GP care, after thousands of doctors opted out of treating patients outside working hours under lucrative new contracts, means more and more are going to casualty units, putting them under greater pressure.

Dr Jonathan Fielden of the British Medical Association said: "The vast majority of patients coming into hospital by ambulance are in critical need of care in hospital and therefore delay can worsen their outcome."

Sam Oestreicher of Unison, which represents most ambulance workers, said: "Ambulances should not be used as mobile waiting rooms. They should be freed to do their job.

"These figures show there's a terrible-and colossal waste of ambulance resources."

Conservative health spokesman Mike Penning said: "Not admitting people to hospital but stacking patients in car parks beggars belief in the 21st century."

However the Department of Health said the statistics did not reflect time spent by patients in the ambulance before being admitted to accident and emergency.

"They measure the time taken to turn around an ambulance for its next emergency, including cleaning and restocking the ambulance," said a spokesman.

"These figures must be seen in the context of the 4.3million patient journeys undertaken by emergency vehicles in 2006/07."
 
Oh and third, someone real close to me is a MHA. 

Sorry Baden, It was probably an unfair comment.
It's probably more appropriate to blame the way the budgetary process works
and the level of government funding.

Mismanagement  is what is wrong - and it occurs in private healthcare too.
The difference is that denial of patient care has different consequences.

In a public system, the failures make news. 
 
Flip said:
Mismanagement  is what is wrong - and it occurs in private healthcare too.

In private business (of any kind), mismanagement is punished by loss of market share, profits and eventually the jobs of the mismanagers. In "public sector" there are very few consequences for mismanagement, hence no action to correct deficiencies.
 
Canada needs "American health care" in order to be able to provide health care to Canadians. Too bad if you live too far from the border:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080301.wheart01/BNStory/National/home?cid=al_gam_mostview

Why Ontario keeps sending patients south

LISA PRIEST

From Saturday's Globe and Mail

March 1, 2008 at 12:45 AM EST

More than 400 Canadians in the full throes of a heart attack or other cardiac emergency have been sent to the United States because no hospital can provide the lifesaving care they require here.

Most of the heart patients who have been sent south since 2003 typically show up in Ontario hospitals, where they are given clot-busting drugs. If those drugs fail to open their clogged arteries, the scramble to locate angioplasty in the United States begins.

“They rushed me over to Detroit, did the whole closing of the tunnel,” said Eric Bialkowski, 47, of the heart attack he had on March 14, 2007, in Windsor, Ont. “It was like Disneyworld customer service.”

While other provinces have sent patients out of country – British Columbia has sent 75 pregnant women or their babies to Washington State since February, 2007 – nowhere is the problem as acute as in Ontario.

At least 188 neurosurgery patients and 421 emergency cardiac patients have been sent to the United States from Ontario since the 2003-2004 fiscal year to Feb. 21 this year. Add to that 25 women with high-risk pregnancies sent south of the border in 2007.

Although Queen's Park says it is ensuring patients receive emergency care when they need it, Progressive Conservative health critic Elizabeth Witmer says it reflects poor planning.

That is particularly the case with neurosurgery, she said, noting that four reports since 2003 have predicted a looming shortage.

“This province and the number of people going outside for care – it's increasing in every area,” Ms. Witmer said.

“I definitely believe that it is very bad planning. ...We're simply unable to meet the demand, but we don't even know what the demand is.”

Tom Closson, the Ontario Hospital Association's president and chief executive officer, said 30 per cent of Ontario's hospital medical beds are currently occupied by patients awaiting more appropriate placements, such as assisted living centres, a nursing home, a rehabilitation facility or even their own homes with proper home-care supports.

That squeezes the system at both ends: Patients in intensive care units whose condition improves cannot get into step-down units, and some emergency patients can't get a bed at all, he said, adding that “everything is jam-packed at the moment.”

A method for determining the right mix of beds and health services required in Ontario needs to be developed, he said, noting that that task has not been undertaken on a provincial basis for a decade. (Interpolation. The method of matching supply to demand is called the Free Market.

Laurel Ostfield, press secretary to provincial Health Minister George Smitherman, said that in emergencies, where the patient goes becomes a clinical decision.

It is preferable for someone with a heart attack in Windsor to be sent to Detroit, a few kilometres away, rather than on a long ride to London, Ont.

When demand has peaked, government has responded, she said. It struck a neurosurgery expert panel to study the problem and $4.1-million has been provided to stem the tide of U.S. neurosurgery patients.

As well, stand-alone angioplasty services were created in Windsor in May.

Canadian Medical Association president Brian Day said he couldn't speak about the Ontario problem, but noted this country is the last in the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development to finance hospitals with global budgets.

Under that model, patients – and often doctors – are sometimes viewed as a financial drain.

“We keep coming back to the same root cause,” Dr. Day said in a telephone interview from Ottawa. “The health system is not consumer-focused.”

Patients first learn of the problem when they are critically ill.

Jennifer Walmsley went to Headwaters Health Care Centre in Orangeville in October and was diagnosed with a cerebral hemorrhage due to a ruptured aneurysm. That acute-care hospital does not have neurosurgery and no Ontario hospital that does could take her. She was then rushed to a Buffalo hospital.

Headwater's chief of staff, Jeff McKinnon, said three neurosurgery patients have been sent to Buffalo in the past year. Others have gone to Toronto, Mississauga, Hamilton and London.

Radiologist Louise Keevil said Headwaters has an arrangement with neurosurgeons at other Ontario hospitals to send electronic images for their assessment, but “the limiting factor is availability of beds in their hospital.

“The physicians are very accommodating but their hands are tied by availability of service.”

Kaukab Usman had a heart attack after a gym workout in Windsor on Dec. 9. She was rushed to hospital and given clot-bursting drugs.

When they failed, she was sent to Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit, where she had angioplasty on one clogged artery and two stents inserted.

“It was a miracle for me to be alive,” Ms. Usman said in a telephone interview from Somerset, New Jersey, where she is recuperating.

Aaron Kugelmass, director of the cardiac catheterization laboratory at Henry Ford Hospital, said a system is in place to get these patients the care they need expeditiously.

“We try to make their length of stay in the U.S. as short as possible,” said Dr. Kugelmass, associate division chief of cardiology. “If they are stable for discharge, we discharge them to home in Windsor, with clear follow-up plans.”

Cross-border emergency health care should become less frequent when Amr Morsi, an interventional cardiologist currently in Orlando, Florida, comes to work at Hotel-Dieu Grace Hospital in Windsor in April; a second interventional cardiologist is to come on board there by end of year.

When the program is fully functional, Dr. Morsi expects Hotel-Dieu Grace to be able to do 500 angioplasties a year.

“The idea of starting the program in Windsor is that we will be able to do more of the angioplasty procedures in Windsor without having to send them to Detroit or London,” said the Toronto native who did his cardiology training at the University of Toronto.

“It will take some time to decrease the numbers entirely, but that certainly is the long term plan.”

Mr. Bialkowski of Lakeshore, a town east of Windsor, had angioplasty and received four stents. The stents, typically made of self-expanding, stainless steel mesh, were placed at the site of the fully blocked artery to keep it open.

The price to treat him, including a two-day hospital stay in March, 2007, was $40,826.21 (U.S.) With a 35 per cent discount from Henry Ford Hospital, the bill to the Ontario Health Insurance Plan tallied $26,537.03(U.S.), according to a health ministry document, a copy of which was sent to Mr. Bialkowski.

The father of six, a human resources manager for a manufacturing company based in Windsor, is back at the gym and feels great. It didn't matter where he received the lifesaving care, he said, just so long as he obtained it.

“I guess the Canadian government took care of me,” he said.
 
It is a daily event in Windsor to shut down a lane in the Tunnel for an ambulance which is going to a Detroit area hospital with a priority patient, lights and sirens etc. It is also not uncommon to have an ambulance with an American patient from Detroit going to a Windsor hospital for treatment. Much much more common for the patients to go south than north though.
 
Apologies in advance to some members, but: Bingo!

This article, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Ottawa Citizen, pretty much sums up what I think is wrong with Canada’s health care ‘system’ – ineptitude of a high order:

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/city/story.html?id=e2e7ebe6-7066-42ee-801b-30f0ab2c9067&p=2
Injured? just try getting a bed

Kelly Egan, The Ottawa Citizen

Published: Wednesday, March 05, 2008

What are hospitals for?

I'm not sure we even know anymore.

The Ontario Hospital Association reports, in a front-page story, that one in five beds in Ontario is occupied by a patient who should be receiving home care or moved to a long-term care setting.

It is a "critical" situation, we are told, the No. 1 reason that our hospitals are so overcrowded, our services so backlogged.

The situation at the Queensway-Carleton Hospital is particularly desperate: 30 per cent of patients occupying beds have no medical reason to be there, but can't be discharged because no alternate care is available.

Thirty per cent? Amazing. In fact, hard to believe.

It is, too, a delicate issue, the human dimension of which seems to have been lost. It rather sounds like the hospital bigwigs are annoyed that all these sick people keep showing up -- imagine the nerve! -- at their hospitals.

My impression, built on anecdotal evidence, is the contrary: short of having an axe lodged between your eyes, all effort is made not to give you an actual bed. Can't do that. Now you'd be part of the "problem."

A little story:

One afternoon this winter, an acquaintance was taking snow off his roof when he fell off a small ladder, landing hard on his side.

It was a painful retreat to the house, inch by inch, and took almost an hour. An ambulance was called. He was treated promptly at the Civic campus of The Ottawa Hospital and given an X-ray and diagnosis: a fractured pelvis.

At this point, he could not get out of bed or walk without considerable assistance.

He is 62 years old, in good health, but lives alone. At 1:30 a.m., roughly 12 hours after his fall, the hospital called his girlfriend. Come and get him; he's ready to come home.

Understandably, in the middle of the night, she balked.

For the next 48 hours, he was kept in an observation area attached to the emergency department. There was no surgery or cast, or "acute-care" treatment, to direct his way: only rest and painkillers would do the trick.

After two days, he was moved to a nursing home, never having been admitted to an actual hospital bed.

Another surprise awaited there. Although he had his own room, he was on a locked floor occupied by late-stage Alzheimer's patients. He convalesced for a week, watching a marathon of television, before going home, still using a walker to inch along.

I find it staggering. If a man with a broken pelvis -- in pain and immobile -- is not a suitable candidate for hospital admission, then who is?

The curious thing is, hospital patients do not, generally speaking, occupy beds for very long.

The total number of days patients were kept in all Canadian acute-care hospitals declined from 23.3 million in 1995-96 to 20.3 million in 2005-06, a drop of three million days, or 13 per cent, according to the Canadian Institute for Health Information.

The average length of stay in a Canadian acute-care hospital has been fairly constant during the last decade, somewhere between 7.2 and 7.4 days, the institute found. In Ontario, the figure has dropped from eight days to 6.5 over the last 25 years.

The statistics for those being treated for mental illness, meanwhile, show a sharp drop in length-of-stay over the last few years: from 160 days in 2000-01 to about 110 days in 2004-05 in psychiatric hospitals. For general hospitals, the in-hospital stays for mental illness dropped from 40 days to 20 days over the same period. The point is, patients are not lounging about in hospital beds. It just isn't so.

I imagine many of these "bed blockers," as they were once called, are in the same boat: sick enough to need some kind of daily care -- medical, nursing, personal -- but not sick enough to need the full resources of an acute-care, teaching hospital.

Many, perhaps, have no families to send them home to. This is not their fault. They are not a "problem" that large hospitals need to deal with. They're as entitled to decent health care as anyone else.

And, by the way, this so-called problem has been on the radar for at least 15 years, probably longer. What have a succession of governments, and billions of dollars in public money, done to address it? I think language -- the way the issue is framed -- is part of the dilemma, to the point that some of these labels are becoming meaningless.

A man with a broken pelvis, I would say, is in need of "acute care." Yet he did not qualify for a bed, nor was he counted as an admitted patient at an acute-care institution.

What, it is to wonder, are hospitals for?

Contact Kelly Egan at 613-726-5896 or by e-mail, kegan@thecitizen.canwest.com

© The Ottawa Citizen 2008

The ineptitude starts at the level of the ordinary Canadians who, thanks to a poor education mixed with Lliberal doses of Marxist propaganda believe that the ‘problem’ with healthcare is overpaid doctors. If only, Joe Lunchbucket thinks, we could conscript those rich doctors, all would be well. Codswallop!

The sundry governments, advised by legions of absolutely useless Marxist health-care economists (who are a total waste of money), are so terrified of the ill-informed ‘people’ that they spend most of their time pursuing inane and wasteful solutions to non-problems.

The Ontario Hospital Association is right: the solution to hospital overcrowding, which is also the solution to many of the wait time issues is home care. The existing home care regime is madness – “a tale told by an idiot” and so on. It is ‘designed’ with a huge dose of old fashioned Scottish niggardliness as its guiding principle: the aim is to ensure that no one gets ‘something for nothing’ (thus it appeals to the peasant-like greed and cunning that are at the heart of all Canadian social programmes). A few years ago, when my mother was dying at home, I accepted the 14 hours per week of “home care” simply because that represented $15,000/year I did not have to pay (in cash, under the table) for private duty nursing – which ended up costing well in excess of $175,000 in the final year of her life.

(She was “admissible” as one of those “bed blockers” but we (my mother, herself, my ex-wife, leader of the private duty nursing team, and I) were not persuaded that she would receive anything like “proper” care, even at $35,000+/year for a private room and another $70,000/year for extra nursing staff for in hospital day-by-day care. The ‘system’ estimated a three year wait for anything like what we and her physician regarded as adequate or even minimally acceptable care.)

I remain convinced that, under normal circumstances, bureaucrats, however smart and well intentioned, are incapable of providing operationally and cost effective management to large, complex enterprises – like health care systems. (Yes, bureaucrats ‘won’ the 2nd World War, but those were not normal circumstances and I doubt anyone thinks we they ran WWII in anything like a cost effective manner.) I am equally persuaded that even the most poorly managed public/private system – but, anything but the US model – would provide better care for more people at lower costs.

I know that some Milnet.ca members work in the ‘system’ and I have no doubt you are capable and you work hard but, while I intend no offence, I am convinced that you are failing because the ‘system’ within which you work is fundamentally flawed in its design (Canada Health Act) and management (provincial ministries/bureaucracies).
 
Further evidence, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail that the health care system, in Ontario at least, isn’t systematic:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080311.wtumourr11/BNStory/specialScienceandHealth/home
Even huge tumour can't secure care in Ontario
Woman must cover cost of U.S. surgery


LISA PRIEST

From Tuesday's Globe and Mail
March 11, 2008 at 6:36 AM EDT

Inside Sylvia de Vries lurked an enormous tumour and fluid totalling 18 kilograms. But not even that massive weight gain and a diagnosis of ovarian cancer could assure her timely treatment in Canada.

Fighting for her life, the Windsor woman headed to the United States. In Pontiac, Mich., a surgeon excised the tumour - 35 centimetres at its longest - along with her ovaries, appendix, fallopian tubes, uterus and cervix. In addition, 13 litres of fluid were drained during that October, 2006, operation.

And there was little time to spare: Had she waited two weeks, she would have faced potential multiorgan failure, rendering her unstable for surgery, according to a letter from Michael L. Hicks, who performed the four-hour operation at St. Joseph Mercy Oakland.

"Based on my exam and experience as a gynecological oncologist, I felt it necessary to perform surgery within two weeks," said the letter written by Dr. Hicks, provided to Ms. de Vries's lawyer, Kate Sellar.

But a devastating cancer diagnosis was only the beginning of Ms. de Vries's troubles.

The Ontario Health Insurance Plan says it won't pay for the $60,000 cancer treatment because Ms. de Vries did not fill out the correct form seeking preapproval for out-of-country care.

As well, it says no medical documentation was submitted that indicated a delay in obtaining the service in Ontario would result in death or medically significant, irreversible tissue damage.

That administrative misstep has left Ms. de Vries, a 51-year-old corporate communications manager, with a staggering cancer bill. She has drained her savings, maxed out her credit cards, taken out a line of credit and relied on friends to hold a spaghetti-dinner fundraiser, which earned $11,125.

"I feel abandoned; I was fighting for my life," Ms. de Vries said. "... I definitely would like to get some money back but more importantly, I would like to see the situation rectified so [other patients] don't go through this."

Ms. de Vries's case raises questions about OHIP's out-of-country health coverage program, which was put under a review more than a year ago after cancer patient Suzanne Aucoin of St. Catharines, Ont., was denied funding for treatment she received in the United States.

Only after ombudsman André Marin intervened was Ms. Aucoin reimbursed $76,018.23 in January, 2007, to cover costs associated with the colorectal cancer drug Erbitux, among other expenses and legal fees. (She has since died.)

At the time, Mr. Marin described the out-of-country approval process as "literally impossible for patients and physicians to understand."

Just two months before Mr. Marin made those comments, Ms. de Vries was trying to get access to that same program.

To have an out-of-country treatment approved, the procedure must not be performed in Ontario, cannot be experimental and should be deemed medically appropriate. However, patients can have out-of-country treatment funded even if it is available in Ontario so long as there is a delay that would cause irreversible tissue damage or death. Part of the form must be filled out by the patient's physician.

Patients denied preapproved, out-of-country treatment can appeal their cases to the Health Services Appeal and Review Board. And that is what OHIP has suggested to Ms. de Vries.

But her lawyer, Ms. Sellar, said such an appeal would be futile: Since Ms. de Vries did not fill out the out-of-country form before receiving treatment in the U.S., she cannot win the appeal.

Health Minister George Smitherman has the discretion to reimburse Ms. de Vries for treatment, if he chooses to do so. Ms. de Vries said she contacted her MPP, Sandra Pupatello, about it. In the end, she was told she had to go through the appeal process.

Bill Hryniuk, a past chairman of the board for the Cancer Advocacy Coalition of Canada, said cases like Ms. de Vries are "happening quite a bit." The problem, Dr. Hryniuk said, is that "no one is in charge. No one is in charge of the case and the patient bounces around. ... It really is a bad system. Really, it's no system."

Even after Ms. de Vries obtained a CT scan in the U.S. that suggested she had ovarian cancer, she still couldn't get treatment in Ontario. She was referred to a gynecologist who would not take her as a patient because she had dismissed his practice partner some years earlier. Another gynecologist said he did not believe she had ovarian cancer. And a general surgeon said she needed a gynecological oncologist.

At that point, in October, 2006, her condition was worsening - so she tapped her savings and went to the U.S.

After the surgery, she tried to get into the cancer system in Windsor, this time for chemotherapy. In November, she was told there was a six-week wait for chemotherapy, and she ended up getting chemo in the U.S. as well.

Ron Foster, vice-president of public affairs and communications for Windsor Regional Hospital, which includes the Windsor Regional Cancer Centre, said such a wait even back in 2006 would have been unusual - that it may have been as long as three weeks. Today, chemotherapy begins within one week of being referred by a doctor, he said.

Several improvements have also been made to the out-of-country process. A bulletin describing the program was mailed to the province's physicians, hospitals and associations in October, 2007. The next month, a special website was created. Those who receive denial letters are now provided a special telephone number to call for clarification on why the request was rejected, said Health Ministry spokeswoman Joanne Woodward Fraser.

But all that was too late for Ms. de Vries.

"I feel disappointed that when you're going through something like I did, you had to think about financial issues. It put a tremendous amount of strain on us," she said.

Her husband, Adriaan de Vries, an IT systems engineer, said they had no choice but to go to the U.S. "Nobody was in charge," he said, "and nobody really cared."

In this case there is too much system and not enough health care including, I’m guessing, too few gynecological oncologists – probably a result of the frustrations of practicing medicine within the Canadian system.

Why do countries as diverse as France, Italy, Japan and the UK spend less (per capita) than we do on health care but have, according to the World Health Organization, better overall healthcare system performance? There’s something wrong with the system and, at the very heart of the system we find the Canada Health Act. Canadians, like everyone else in the OECD, want and are willing to pay for a efficient, effective public (universal) healthcare system; the pity is they don’t have one and governments (the plurality of actors being part of the problem) are unable to manage such a large, dynamic and complex creature.

 
E.R. Campbell said:
Why do countries as diverse as France, Italy, Japan and the UK spend less (per capita) than we do on health care but have, according to the World Health Organization, better overall healthcare system performance?

That's easy ... it's because there are so damn many 'experts' around that feel that outcomes should take a back seat to socialist dogma!  Case in point:
Private waiting list illegal, health critic says
Vancouver Sun
Published: Tuesday, March 11, 2008

A private health waiting-list insurance scheme that allows well-heeled patients to jump the queue for medical services in private clinics is illegal and should be shut down, the New Democrats say.

NDP health critic Adrian Dix said the scheme, offered by Alberta-based Acure Health Corp., provides a two-tier system that shuts out low-income patients and people with chronic diseases such as diabetes.

He is calling on the provincial government to immediately shut down the scheme, which promotes the Medical Access Insurance plan to those who have the money to pay for it.

For an annual fee of $800 to $1,200, people can get access to health services covered under the public Medical Services Plan after they have waited 45 days for the service, he said.

Under the scheme, patients can get access to specialists within 21 days, he said. But those with chronic diseases will have a tough time accessing this insurance, Dix said.

The service is provided by for-profit health care providers such as the False Creek and Cambie surgeries, he said.

Dr. Brian Day, president of the Canadian Medical Association who works out of the Cambie Surgery, could not be reached Monday afternoon.

"It's two-tier on health and it's two-tier on finances, and it's plainly illegal what they've been offering for the past few months," Dix said, adding the scheme violates both provincial and national health legislation.

"It's the obligation of the British Columbia government to defend public health care; they've been slow to do that. The existence of this insurance clearly shows the government's record on [waiting lists] isn't very good."

The average wait for an MRI in B.C. is 84 days, he said, compared with 30 days in Ontario.

Health Minister George Abbott was unavailable for comment Monday, but said in a statement the government has received legal advice on the matter and is considering its options.

"The ministry has been aware of the activities of this company for a number of months, and in fact has been reviewing the legalities of the services provided, as they pertain to the Medicare Protection Act," Abbott said in the statement.

He said the provision of insurance by private insurers, and the sale of insurance, rests with the Financial Institutions Commission and the Insurance Council of B.C.
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/westcoastnews/story.html?id=bc0b2090-d363-491c-9292-4cfeda079582
 
E.R. Campbell said:
Further evidence, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail that the health care system, in Ontario at least, isn’t systematic:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080311.wtumourr11/BNStory/specialScienceandHealth/home
In this case there is too much system and not enough health care including, I’m guessing, too few gynecological oncologists – probably a result of the frustrations of practicing medicine within the Canadian system.

Why do countries as diverse as France, Italy, Japan and the UK spend less (per capita) than we do on health care but have, according to the World Health Organization, better overall healthcare system performance? There’s something wrong with the system and, at the very heart of the system we find the Canada Health Act. Canadians, like everyone else in the OECD, want and are willing to pay for a efficient, effective public (universal) healthcare system; the pity is they don’t have one and governments (the plurality of actors being part of the problem) are unable to manage such a large, dynamic and complex creature.

More recent states do not show a significant lead in performance. Just a quick look using this table, we appear to be on par in most areas with the UK.

http://www.who.int/whosis/whostat2007_1mortality.pdf
 
Debt or taxes:

http://westernstandard.blogs.com/shotgun/2008/03/a-matter-of-lif.html

Canadian health care: a matter of life or debt?

Often in Canada, we hear fear mongering about an "American-style" health care system: "We don't want an American system. Health care should be free! You shouldn't have to make the decision to mortgage your house or die!" they'll say.

But the decision to choose between coming up with a total of $60,000 in up-front payments or dying of ovarian cancer was one that Sylvia de Vries, a Canadian woman from Windsor, Ontario had to make.

After she gained 40 pounds it was obvious that she was suffering from something more serious than irritable bowel syndrome, with which she'd been diagnosed. When four doctors in Ontario were unable to find a problem with her, Mrs. de Vries visited an American doctor who diagnosed her with ovarian cancer. She came back to Canada to have the diagnosis confirmed (as you have to to be covered by OHIP) and was shuffled back and forth between doctors and waiting lists before being told by a gynecologist that there was nothing wrong with her.

Luckily, she had the money to pay for surgery in America - four days after making an appointment, a doctor removed a 13 liters of fluid, an 18kg tumor that included her entire reproductive system and appendix, and found cancer on the outside of her stomach. The doctor has informed her lawyer that in two weeks she would likely have been experiencing multiple system failure and would have been too unstable for surgery.

Upon returning to Canada for chemotherapy, she was told there was a 6-week wait to see a doctor to get started, so she went back to America and paid up-front again for chemotherapy treatments. She is now $60,000 in debt, and in spite of the fact that Canadian law bars us from buying health insurance to cover such costs, the public system is refusing to pay for her costs because her case doesn't satisfy system's requirements for coverage.

George Smitherman's office, via his press secretary Laurel Ostfield, issued a response the day after the story was reported on in Windsor:

    "The minister cannot intervene," Ostfield said. "These laws are in place in order to protect Ontario's health care system. If payment was issued for every single circumstance, we wouldn't be able to sustain the health care system for future generations. So we do have these laws in place for a reason. There are safety nets to make sure that people don't fall through the cracks and that they do receive compensation if it was necessary or deserved."

There are some very significant elements of this quote - note that the laws are in place in order to protect Ontario's health care system. No mention is made of Ontarians who might die if they refuse to circumvent the system as Mrs. de Vries did. Further, a system that has failed so utterly is apparently a system that needs to be sustained for future generations!

The sacred cow of public health care has quashed any debate over its effectiveness or its effects. Canadians are so afraid to have a price put on a human life that they can't see that all that's happened is that this price is now set by a detached government bureaucrat rather than by the people whose lives would otherwise be saved if they were allowed to buy more comprehensive insurance policies.

Finally, for all those who are worried about the poor dying as the rich benefit from any system other than a Canadian health care system, all I have to say is that I'm very, very glad that OHIP-covered Sylvia de Vries was fortunate enough to be in a financial position able to come up with $60,000 of her own money. If she had been a poorer, OHIP-covered, taxpaying citizen of Ontario, she might not be around to tell her story today.

Posted by Janet Neilson on March 18, 2008
 
Apparently, the majority of America's doctors- about 60%- reportedly now support Universal Health Care Coverage in the United States.

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSN3143203520080331

Doctors support universal health care: survey
Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:14pm EDT
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - More than half of U.S. doctors now favor switching to a national health care plan and fewer than a third oppose the idea, according to a survey published on Monday.

The survey suggests that opinions have changed substantially since the last survey in 2002 and as the country debates serious changes to the health care system.

Of more than 2,000 doctors surveyed, 59 percent said they support legislation to establish a national health insurance program, while 32 percent said they opposed it, researchers reported in the journal Annals of Internal Medicine.

The 2002 survey found that 49 percent of physicians supported national health insurance and 40 percent opposed it.

"Many claim to speak for physicians and represent their views. We asked doctors directly and found that, contrary to conventional wisdom, most doctors support national health insurance," said Dr. Aaron Carroll of the Indiana University School of Medicine, who led the study.

"As doctors, we find that our patients suffer because of increasing deductibles, co-payments, and restrictions on patient care," said Dr. Ronald Ackermann, who worked on the study with Carroll. "More and more, physicians are turning to national health insurance as a solution to this problem."

PATCHWORK

The United States has no single organized health care system. Instead it relies on a patchwork of insurance provided by the federal and state governments to the elderly, poor, disabled and to some children, along with private insurance and employer-sponsored plans.

Many other countries have national plans, including Britain, France and Canada, and several studies have shown the United States spends more per capita on health care, without achieving better results for patients.

An estimated 47 million people have no insurance coverage at all, meaning they must pay out of their pockets for health care or skip it.

Contenders in the election for president in November all have proposed various changes, but none of the major party candidates has called for a fully national health plan.

Insurance companies, retailers and other employers have joined forces with unions and other interest groups to propose their own plans.

"Across the board, more physicians feel that our fragmented and for-profit insurance system is obstructing good patient care, and a majority now support national insurance as the remedy," Ackermann said in a statement.

The Indiana survey found that 83 percent of psychiatrists, 69 percent of emergency medicine specialists, 65 percent of pediatricians, 64 percent of internists, 60 percent of family physicians and 55 percent of general surgeons favor a national health insurance plan.

The researchers said they believe the survey was representative of the 800,000 U.S. medical doctors.

(Reporting by Maggie Fox; Editing by Will Dunham and Xavier Briand)


© Reuters 2007.

 
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/05/us/05doctors.html?em&ex=1207627200&en=7e890db1d78a1061&ei=5087%0A

April 5, 2008
In Massachusetts, Universal Coverage Strains Care
By KEVIN SACK
AMHERST, Mass. — Once they discover that she is Dr. Kate, the supplicants line up to approach at dinner parties and ballet recitals. Surely, they suggest to Dr. Katherine J. Atkinson, a family physician here, she might find a way to move them up her lengthy waiting list for new patients.

Those fortunate enough to make it soon learn they face another long wait: Dr. Atkinson’s next opening for a physical is not until early May — of 2009.

In pockets of the United States, rural and urban, a confluence of market and medical forces has been widening the gap between the supply of primary care physicians and the demand for their services. Modest pay, medical school debt, an aging population and the prevalence of chronic disease have each played a role.

Now in Massachusetts, in an unintended consequence of universal coverage, the imbalance is being exacerbated by the state’s new law requiring residents to have health insurance.

Since last year, when the landmark law took effect, about 340,000 of Massachusetts’ estimated 600,000 uninsured have gained coverage. Many are now searching for doctors and scheduling appointments for long-deferred care.

Here in western Massachusetts, Dr. Atkinson’s bustling 3,000-patient practice, which was closed to new patients for several years, has taken on 50 newcomers since she hired a part-time nurse practitioner in November. About a third were newly insured, Dr. Atkinson said. Just north of here in Athol, the doctors at North Quabbin Family Physicians are now seeing four to six new patients a day, up from one or two a year ago.

Dr. Patricia A. Sereno, state president of the American Academy of Family Physicians, said an influx of the newly insured to her practice in Malden, just north of Boston, had stretched her daily caseload to as many as 22 to 25 patients, from 18 to 20 a year ago. To fit them in, Dr. Sereno limits the number of 45-minute physicals she schedules each day, thereby doubling the wait for an exam to three months.

“It’s a recipe for disaster,” Dr. Sereno said. “It’s great that people have access to health care, but now we’ve got to find a way to give them access to preventive services. The point of this legislation was not to get people episodic care.”

Whether there is a national shortage of primary care providers is a matter of considerable debate. Some researchers contend the United States has too many doctors, driving overutilization of the system.

But there is little dispute that the general practice of medicine is under strain at a time when there is bipartisan consensus that better prevention and chronic disease management would not only improve health but also help control costs. With its population aging, the country will need 40 percent more primary care doctors by 2020, according to the American College of Physicians, which represents 125,000 internists, and the 94,000-member American Academy of Family Physicians. Community health centers, bolstered by increases in federal financing during the Bush years, are having particular difficulty finding doctors.

“I think it’s pretty serious,” said Dr. David C. Dale, president of the American College of Physicians and former dean of the University of Washington’s medical school. “Maybe we’re at the front of the wave, but there are several factors making it harder for the average American, particularly older Americans, to have a good personal physician.”

Studies show that the number of medical school graduates in the United States entering family medicine training programs, or residencies, has dropped by 50 percent since 1997. A decadelong decline gave way this year to a slight increase in numbers, perhaps because demand is driving up salaries.

There have been slight increases in the number of doctors training in internal medicine, which focuses on the nonsurgical treatment of adults. But the share of those residents who then establish a general practice has plummeted, to 24 percent in 2006 from 54 percent in 1998, according to the American College of Physicians.

The Government Accountability Office reported to Congress in February that the per capita supply of primary care physicians actually grew by 12 percent from 1995 to 2005, at more than double the rate for specialists. But the report also revealed deep shifts in the composition of primary care providers.

While fewer American-trained doctors are pursuing primary care, they are being replaced in droves by foreign medical school graduates and osteopathic doctors. There also has been rapid growth in the ranks of physician assistants and nurse practitioners.

A. Bruce Steinwald, the accountability office’s director of health care, concluded there was not a current nationwide shortage. But Mr. Steinwald urged the overhaul of a fee-for-service reimbursement system that he said undervalued primary care while rewarding expensive procedure-based medicine. His report noted that the Medicare reimbursement for a half-hour primary care visit in Boston is $103.42; for a colonoscopy requiring roughly the same time, a gastroenterologist would receive $449.44.

Numerous studies, in this country and others, have shown that primary care improves health and saves money by encouraging prevention and early diagnosis of chronic conditions like high blood pressure and diabetes. Presidential candidates in both parties stress its importance.

Here in Massachusetts, legislative leaders have proposed bills to forgive medical school debt for those willing to practice primary care in underserved areas; a similar law, worth $15.6 million, passed in New York this week. Massachusetts also recently authorized the opening of clinics in drug stores, hoping to relieve the pressure.

“It is a fundamental truth — which we are learning the hard way in Massachusetts — that comprehensive health care reform cannot work without appropriate access to primary care physicians and providers,” Dr. Bruce Auerbach, the president-elect of the Massachusetts Medical Society, told Congress in February.

Jon M. Kingsdale, executive director of the agency that oversees the Massachusetts initiative, said he had not heard of major problems, but acknowledged “the prospect of a severe shortage” as newly insured patients seek care in doctors’ offices rather than emergency rooms.

Given the presence of four medical schools and Boston’s dense medical infrastructure, it might seem difficult to argue that Massachusetts has too few doctors. The state ranks well above the national average in the per capita supply of all doctors and of primary care physicians.

But those measures do not necessarily translate into adequate access, particularly in remote areas. Annual work force studies by the medical society have found statewide shortages of primary care doctors in each of the last two years.

The share who accept new patients has dropped, to barely half in the case of internists, and the average wait by a new patient for an appointment with an internist rose to 52 days in 2007 from 33 days in 2006. In westernmost Berkshire County, newly insured patients are being referred 25 miles away, said Charles E. Joffe-Halpern, director of an agency that enrolls the uninsured.

The situation may worsen as large numbers of general practitioners retire over the next decade. The incoming pool of doctors is predominantly female, and many are balancing child-rearing with part-time work. The supply is further stretched by the emergence of hospitalists — primary care physicians who practice solely in hospitals, where they can earn more and work regular hours. President Bush has proposed eliminating $48 million in federal support for primary care training programs.

Clinic administrators in western Massachusetts report extreme difficulty in recruiting primary care doctors. Dr. Timothy Soule-Regine, a co-owner of the North Quabbin practice, said it had taken at least two years and as long as five to recruit new physicians.

At the University of Massachusetts Medical School in Worcester, no more than 4 of the 28 internal medicine residents in each class are choosing primary care, down from half a decade ago, said Dr. Richard M. Forster, the program’s director. In Springfield, only one of 16 third-year residents at Baystate Medical Center, which trains physicians from Tufts University, plans to pursue primary care, said Jane Albert, a hospital spokeswoman.

The need to pay off medical school debt, which averages $120,000 at public schools and $160,000 at private schools, is cited as a major reason that graduates gravitate to higher-paying specialties and hospitalist jobs.

Primary care doctors typically fall at the bottom of the medical income scale, with average salaries in the range of $160,000 to $175,000 (compared with $410,000 for orthopedic surgeons and $380,000 for radiologists). In rural Massachusetts, where reimbursement rates are relatively low, some physicians are earning as little as $70,000 after 20 years of practice.

Officials with several large health systems said their primary care practices often lose money, but generate revenue for their companies by referring patients to profit centers like surgery and laboratories.

Dr. Atkinson, 45, said she paid herself a salary of $110,000 last year. Her insurance reimbursements often do not cover her costs, she said.

“I calculated that every time I have a Medicare patient it’s like handing them a $20 bill when they leave,” she said. “I never went into medicine to get rich, but I never expected to feel as disrespected as I feel. Where is the incentive for a practice like ours?”


 
by Aden Gatling:
That's easy ... it's because there are so damn many 'experts' around that feel that outcomes should take a back seat to socialist dogma!  Case in point:

Socialist dogma? You tell that to this guy who's featured in this article below; don't tell me it was his fault that he did not get a lower income to qualify for Medicaid (and please don't tell me I won't read it just because it's CNN). It's about ACCESS, regardless of income, but of course from the way this thread has been steered, you'll probably answer me with "It's not my problem".

http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/04/25/cancer.windsor/index.html

Dying for lack of insurance
Story Highlights
Cancer society: Uninsured 60 percent more likely to die within 5 years of diagnosis

Uninsured Atlanta man has had cancer for 25 of his 52 years

He eventually got insurance, but treatment came too late

By John Bonifield
CNN
ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- Mark Windsor looks exhausted. For a week he's been undergoing radiation treatment on a cancerous tumor in his neck. A metal rod fused to his spine keeps his head stable. His muscles there are gone, the result of multiple failed surgeries to rid him of his disease. He can't turn his head sideways or look up or down. So his look stays fixed, despite his fatigue.

"If I probably had gotten some good treatment several years ago I probably would have been cured," Windsor said from his home in Atlanta, Georgia.

The reason he didn't get care sooner -- he couldn't afford it, because he didn't have insurance. Windsor, a self-employed photographer, has had bone cancer -- a rare chondrosarcoma -- for more than 25 years. At 52, that's almost half his life. While he's found help from a few generous doctors, his efforts to survive have often been desperate. And now he's learned, largely in vain.

"I've been given anywhere from 18 months to three years," Windsor said. "And of course that's if I continue to go through these brutal treatments that I don't know that my body is capable of doing anymore. I'm tired. I've had a lot of operations in my life. And this radiation treatment wasn't much better on it. It's now taken my ability for taste away. My smell is horrible. I feel nauseated every day. And I just don't think this ever had to get to this."

Windsor first asked for the radiation therapy 13 years ago, long before his cancer had advanced into the brutal disease that's now assailing him. If he had been treated anytime sooner, the therapy might have worked to eradicate his tumors, when they were still small. But without insurance, Windsor couldn't afford the proper surgeries and follow-up care needed for the radiation to be effective.

The American Cancer Society says uninsured patients are 60 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis. Without insurance, the diagnosis is twice as likely to come in the later stages of cancer.

Just when Windsor's lack of insurance started killing him is difficult to say. His timeline is long. But Windsor points to a period in the fall of 2006.

His cancer had returned. But this time, the surgeon who had donated his services was no longer on staff at the hospital where Windsor was on a charity plan. His lifesaving operation wouldn't be possible.

"All of a sudden I'm out here in this world with no hospital and no doctor. And everybody I faxed -- I got on my computer and sent out e-mails and faxes to at least 20 neurosurgeons in Atlanta and not a single one responded," Windsor said.

If Windsor were poor, he could've found insurance through Medicaid, but his $30,000 income was too much to qualify. So instead, he walked into an Atlanta emergency room.

"All they did for me ... was check my blood pressure and my temperature," Windsor recalls. "I said, 'This is not the answer.' "

Thirteen hours later, feeling frustrated, he left. A few months later, he found his answer: He got health insurance when he married his good friend, Val Chamberoam, who put him on her health policy.

By the time Windsor got to the operating room, in the summer of 2007, his tumor was so large that it covered his entire neck. It had been growing for 10 months.

"It's just never recovered," Windsor said. "It's gone from grade one to grade three, and also now has spread to my lungs."

Today, there's nothing more doctors can do. The radiation Windsor is receiving will only prolong his life, not save it.

And what about his wife, Val?

"We're going through a divorce," he said. "Because I have so many hospital bills now, insurance companies have denied to pay them...so I've done what I think is proper, filed for divorce, so that my wife is not stuck with my hospital bills."


For now, Windsor finds pleasure in the smiles of the people he photographs. As for his own, you never see it. His face is grim and angry.

"I'm angry at the greed of the insurance companies," Windsor said. "Everybody has the right to make profits. Every corporation has the right to be strong, make the right decisions. But I don't think that it is proper to deny people with chronic disease the opportunity to get well."

Windsor's sentiment is probably shared by many of the nearly 50 million Americans who have no health insurance.

Karen Ignani, president and CEO of America's Health Insurance Plans, says the organization would like to see all Americans covered. "Anytime anyone falls through the cracks, this is a major societal, national problem. What we've done recently is our members have recognized that individuals who are not being sponsored by employers, don't have employer coverage or aren't eligible for public programs need additional help," Ignani said.

"We proposed a strategy that involves setting up risk pools at the state level and our members agreeing to backstop those risk pools by taking everyone who may not be able to be eligible."

In May, Windsor will begin government-sponsored disability insurance. He'll be covered for the remainder of his life, however short it may be

John Bonifield is an associate producer with CNN Medical News.
 
The "socialist dogma" is in fact still part of the problem because the "socialist dogma" impedes solutions which might provide health care to those who lack it without significantly reducing the health care of those who already have it.  A person who has health care for his family is unlikely to look favourably on anyone whose proposals amount to lessening it.  2- or 3- or N-tier health care is better than 0-tier.
 
An example of some changes in the USA.  Recent changes in Massachusetts means most residents of that state must now have health insurance.  For those who don't, tax penalties can be as high as $912 if you stay uninsured for the whole year.  The state has made an effort to provide affordable heath insurance for those who do not qualify for subsidized coverage.  As this is probably one of the few places on the internet where a price is quoted for health insurance, I submitted a form to see what would it cost to get health insurance in Boston.  The rates quoted are for an "individual", are in the "bronze" (low premium/service) category and are per month.  The 'silver' and 'gold' level coverage were much more.  I don't know if there would be any restrictions for pre-existing conditions as the only questions asked (on the internet form) were age, zip code and work industry.

2451352308_24514e54d3.jpg
 
Having been with family members in the ER for over six hours myself (try sitting six hours and waiting for help while your daughter is suffering from a severe asthma attack and can't breath), this story isn't an aberration. Sadly, since there is no accountability, this is the wave of the future:

http://ragingtory.blogspot.com/2009/02/wrha-and-ndp-cover-up-continues-to-get.html

WRHA and NDP cover up continues to get worse.

The cover up of Brian Sinclair's murder continues to thicken. Now it is known that security requested help for him over and over again, and the calls went unanswered.

This was no accident. This is the direct cause of negligence and a socialist medical system. The WRHA and the NDP have covered this up. It is now a murder, for every action could have been taken, and none were. This was a deliberate killing of a human being, and the WRHA, NDP and those on staff at the time are all to blame.

Most of all, this is what happens with a medical system like ours. This system has no accountability, and so no one cares.

In a private system, the doctors care because it is a business, and the customer holds them responsible. Free clinics become available, and the doctors are there because they care, and people don't fall through the cracks.

This is my official call for the ending of unaccountability and uncaring people. It is time we stand up and put an end to this travesty we call a health care system.
 
Just wait until the Obama administration secures this sort of healthcare in America!:

http://thesecretsofvancouver.com/wordpress/blame-canada-our-healthcare-kills/free-health-care

CANADA CARE MAY HAVE KILLED NATASHA

COULD actress Natasha Richardson’s tragic death have been prevented if her skiing accident had occurred in America rather than Canada?

Canadian health care de-emphasizes widespread dissemination of technology like CT scanners and quick access to specialists like neurosurgeons. While all the facts of Richardson’s medical care haven’t been released, enough is known to pose questions with profound implications.

Richardson died of an epidural hematoma — a bleeding artery between the skull and brain that compresses and ultimately causes fatal brain damage via pressure buildup. With prompt diagnosis by CT scan, and surgery to drain the blood, most patients survive.

Could Richardson have received this care? Where it happened in Canada, no. In many US resorts, yes.
 
the problem with the canadian healthcare system is apathy of bueruacrats and underfunding

1. The best doctors tend to go to the states where they can get paid more, who can blame them? the solution is increase their pay, if there is an encentive to stay they will, thus we will have more doctors for shorter workshifts resulting in less mistakes, shorter waiting times, and a drastic improvement in overall effectiveness.

2. The current model of ER Waiting rooms is BS, the triage nurse sits behind a plate glass window which seperates them from the patients while they play solitare on their computer between patients checking in.

first, triage/reception nurse's office should be the waiting room, they should be constantly monitoring their patients until a doctor takes charge of them, they should be more than a secretary in scrubs, they should have all the qualifications and equipment to provide emergency crash support

3. too much meddling in the operation of the system by dogmatic socialists that are concerned with centralized assets preventing the spread of large equipment.

4. we need to increase our healthcare budget by 50%, to aquire more equipment to better kit out all hospitals.

5. No penalties for abusing the system... you bring little johnny in cause he has a sniffle, and you should be fined for the wasted time.

The problem with the american system is:

1. is shortens wait times by not treating people - too poor, you get emergency only service if at all, make some money but not enough for health insurance - you are stuck with bills in the tens o thousands.

2. it provides encentives to doctors to do as little as possible.

3. dollar for dollar, americans pay almost twice what we do for the same service. (I think we should increase our funding to bring us within 75% of what americans pay, we underfund, and they get gouged)

4. yes privatization allows those with extra coin to jump the queue, however we're talking people making several 100 thousand a year or more, not many on this board if any at all would have access to that level of service.


the difference between socalized medicine and privatized medicine is not capitalism vs communism as so many seem to think it is, it's non profit, centralized equal access organized insurance and service in one cohesive organization vs for profit decentralized insurance seperate from the service with profits to shareholders at every step of the way.

Universal healthcare is crown health insurance rolled into your taxes. If you privatize Canadian health care the same thing will happen as every other crown asset that has been privatized.

1, 25% or more of the staff will be laid off
2, services will be cut
3, services will never again be upgraded
4, contracts will be violated by the international corps at will as there is no way to really bring them back under the leash
5, the costs will migrate up, and accidents will be manufactured to support requirements in funding increase.

the privatization of water and other crown services prove this... look at private auto insurance... in provinces where it's privatized, the lowest level of insurance is as much as twice what standard insurance in provinces that have a public system, and some of those public systems are underwritten by the same private insurance companies.

the bottom line is, do you want the administrators who control healthcare worried about getting your vote, or worried about how they'll squeeze 10% out of the existing budget to make profit. In times of hardship it's perfectly fine for a government dept to run into deficit, the same is not true of private firms
 
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