Ignorant Civies

[trucker935]

A friend and I went to get a haircut this week dressed in our uniforms ( Cadpat ) and while at the barber shop an older gentleman asked us if we were going Duck Hunting because of the way we were dressed.

At first we thought he was kidding until he was finished getting his haircut. We were still waiting and upon his return to get his jacket he asked us "Isn't a bit late in the year to be Duck Hunting?"

We explained to him that we were in the military and this is our uniform.

Also during the days leading up to Halloween I have been asked by people if this was my Halloween Costume.

 

[kitako]

Thank you,from a civilian.Dont take it personal people can be rude and ignorant,i for one am very proud of our troops and i salute you all.

 

[Korus]

You can't always blame civvies for their ignorance, and if they do make comments, you should be bigger than getting worked up over it. It's human nature to make fun of things, especially that which they don't know anything about or want to know anything about. Remember when you were a new recruit? I'll admit when I was a brand spankin' new recruit I said/thought some pretty ignorant things, I don't think anyone could say they didn't.

If you start flipping out on a civvie, then how does that look? It helps to harden their negative perceptions.. As mentioned before, take the time to talk to them, inform them.. The most anti-military person I met was actually a friend of a friend whom I was introduced to in a campus bar.. Her immediate reaction to finding out I was in the military was an "Oh my god.." and an expression that looked as if I was killing a baby in front of her. I took the time to explain what the Canadian military is all about, and describe some of the things that our nation's military has done overseas recently, and it immediately changed her opinion 180 degrees.

The most annoying, though, was when we were on our way to the mess dinner last year.. We were in DEU's, and a couple of teenagers started singing "in the navy" as we passed by. (we're Army). We just laughed it off and kept going. Nothing worth getting worked up over.

[edited because I can't spell -Roko]

 

[the 48th regulator]

hehe I remember that everytime I was in a kilt I would get the question "what instrument do you play?"

My answer was " The Assault Rifle!"


nuff said

tess

 

[Korus]

Hah! That's great..

Cheers.

 

[pbi]

MacDonald's and once at Wendy's. So me and two others go to Mc Dicks after a parade night and one of the employees (female around 17 to 19yrs. old) asked if you could eat the buttons on combats because a friend said you could. Then at Wendy's an employee said something about liking to join the army but she said that I think they don't allow females. Well I told otherwise and that you should look into it.

This is a very old story: I heard it in the Army Reserve decades ago. Apparently the tale was that on the old Arctic Parka you could boil the buttons to make soup in case you ran out of rations. I never tried it actually, and I rather suspect it was BS.

On the issue of the civvies, I am in line with those posters who have observed that we are treated FAR better than we were in the 70's an 80's. I cannot remember the last negative experience I had, but I can recall lots of positive ones, from common citizens. I think that we need to get our heads out of our collective a**es and stop being so sensitive. Just let it bounce, then try engaging them in real conversation: you will surprise them. IMHO alot of the BS, especially from geeks in highschool, is envy that they would never admit to.   Of course, if a fight breaks out, win.

 

[48Highlander]

On the issue of the civvies, I am in line with those posters who have observed that we are treated FAR better than we were in the 70's an 80's. I cannot remember the last negative experience I had, but I can recall lots of positive ones, from common citizens.

Try walking around downtown Toronto in uniform and you'll get your share of negative experiences.  From what I've observed, people out west tend to be a lot more conservative, so I wouldn't expect to get as many negative comments out there as I do here.  You're probably right though, we do get a fair bit of positive comments as well, and it seems to me that the public has become a lot more supportive in the years after 9/11.  Even a large portion of those opposed to Canadian involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq seem to be supportive and understanding of the military, and I've had quite a few good, civilized discusions with random citizens whose views are diametricaly opposed to mine.  Like Roko said, we should take the time to educate and inform the public rather than getting upset or blowing them off as "ignorant civvies".

 

[pbi]

Try walking around downtown Toronto in uniform and you'll get your share of negative experiences. From what I've observed, people out west tend to be a lot more conservative, so I wouldn't expect to get as many negative comments out there as I do here. You're probably right though, we do get a fair bit of positive comments as well, and it seems to me that the public has become a lot more supportive in the years after 9/11. Even a large portion of those opposed to Canadian involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq seem to be supportive and understanding of the military, and I've had quite a few good, civilized discusions with random citizens whose views are diametricaly opposed to mine. Like Roko said, we should take the time to educate and inform the public rather than getting upset or blowing them off as "ignorant civvies".

I did my Res service in TO 1974-82 and it was utter shyte: you were asking for trouble to wear your uniform on the street. I guess I use that as my yardstick for measuring "bad", and I use my service (most of it out west...) for measring "good". I am sure you are right: TO, as our biggest city, was always a bit mentally challenged when it came to dealing with the military. I recall being told that during the Toronto Snow Storm, when we deployed Bisons into some of the downtown fire halls, the Chief of TFD (25 years of service?/ 30 years??) said that he had "never seen an Army vehicle before". Cheers.

 

[Blindspot]

I never had any problems during the late 80s in Toronto. Taking the bus, the subway, walking down Queen St. I never got harrassed. In fact all I can recall were the geniune cheers of encouragement from the homeless on Jarvis and Queen we would get when doing PT. Nowadays they have a monster fence around Moss Park Armouries don't they; to keep out the "Homes not Bombs" nutjobs?

 

[Gayson]

Try walking around downtown Toronto in uniform and you'll get your share of negative experiences.   From what I've observed, people out west tend to be a lot more conservative, so I wouldn't expect to get as many negative comments out there as I do here.   You're probably right though, we do get a fair bit of positive comments as well, and it seems to me that the public has become a lot more supportive in the years after 9/11.   Even a large portion of those opposed to Canadian involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq seem to be supportive and understanding of the military, and I've had quite a few good, civilized discusions with random citizens whose views are diametricaly opposed to mine.   Like Roko said, we should take the time to educate and inform the public rather than getting upset or blowing them off as "ignorant civvies".

I have always found people in Toronto and the GTA be very nice.  A few times civiese been very kind when I was on my way to or from Fort York.

For example:  A couple of times I would be short of change to get on the TTC,the driver would just let my give him what I had.
One time I was at York Dale Mall walking towards the subway.  Some civiesked up to me and just gave me his day pass as I suspect he had just finished with it.  I used to go to the nearby coffee time when I got to Fort York early, people would offer to buy me coffee.  Another time I was at York Dale mall, I decided to get something to eat in the food court before hopping on the subway.  I had all my kit with me, I was approached by a security guard who insisted on storing my kit in their security offices safely while I got something to eat so that I could take my ruck off and not have to keep my eye on it while in line for food.

The only time I have ever had troubles in Toronto is the occasional time when civvies would ask me if I was on my way to iraq afghAfghanistancause apparently the TTC thway goes all the way to the middle-east).  Also one civviese fun of me because I had to carry a ruck on the way to the fort and he didn't.

I think people are very supportive of the CF these days.

 

[48Highlander]

Nowadays they have a monster fence around Moss Park Armouries don't they; to keep out the "Homes not Bombs" nutjobs?

It's only around the parking lot (which is normal) and along the side of the armories which facess the park.  A few years back they tried throwing up a barb-wire fence around the entire ermory, but that idea got scrapped for reasons unknown.

I have always found people in Toronto and the GTA be very nice. A few times civiese been very kind when I was on my way to or from Fort York.

Like I said, things have gotten better since 9/11, but I'm still surprised you haven't seen any worse.  For instance, whenever my regiment does a ruck march, we get people telling us they don't "appreciate" us "storming through their neighbourhoods".  Or the one guy (in the worst part of toronto) who told us he didn't want us walking through there because we were "bringing down the property values" .  I've had people call me a baby-killer, yell things like "get out of Iraq" (I'm pretty sure I was in Canada at the time), "homes not bombs", and similar drivel.  Then there's the time when I walked onto a subway car to find myself facing the biggest Mexican I've ever seen.  I'm not quite sure what he said, but I did hear the word "pendaho" several times.  And ofcourse, during this years  rememberance day parade, some Middle Eastern fella decided it'd be good fun to run along yelling insults at us.  Not to mention the homeless types who decided our monuments would make great places to watch the parade from.  I didn't much appriciate having to do an eyes-left for a reviewing officer who regularily sleeps in a puddle of his own piss.

Anyway, it's not all negative experiences.  In fact, generaly, and especially recently, the good ones tend to outweigh the bad ones.  Guess I'm just a wee bit jaded.

 

[GGboy]

A lot of your problems with folks in Toronto may have more to do with the class of people you run into in the neighbourhoods around most of the armouries than any widespread dislike of the military in general or the CF in particular. Most of these people also shout insults at random passers-by -- since a lot of the homeless appear to have "mental health issues." I wouldn't take it too personally ...
I find it kind of appalling that our largest city has virtually no reg force military presence. In fact, now that 2 PPCLI is off in Shilo, most  major Canadian cities don't have large bases located in their boundaries or nearby. Edmonton, Halifax and Ottawa (if you count NDHQ) are the only exceptions I can think of: is it any wonder that so many civilians don't know squat about our military?

 

[sguido]

*snip*
(we were both in flight suits, mine was green and my buddy's was still the old blue one)
*snip*

Old blue one?

Thanks a lot, Inch.  That one little comment was all it took for me to realize how old I'm getting.  Back in my day we were looking forward to the fact that we'd get blue ones in a few years...  

Anywho...

As for civies, the ones that will actually make comments to you are the extremes.  You'll run the gamut from positive comments to negative ones.  Rarely will you get a sheeple to bleat out a, "Thanks for what you're doing."

How to deal with the sheeple?  Thank those who made an effort to communicate with you in a positive light, educate those who are asking a question, and ignore the ones who are out to cause grief.  Remember, no question is a stupid one, and when you're wearing the uniform, you've got to behave as an ambassador of the Forces.

"Ignorant" is a bit of a harsh word.  Misinformed is better.  For the original poster, the edible button question was somebody pulling a 'Mythbusters' and checking out an urban legend.  The person who thought females aren't allowing in the Forces perhaps heard, or saw, something about a branch or service where females aren't permitted to serve, and expanded it to include the entire CF.  (She could have been watching TV, and caught a part about, say, females not serving on US subs.  If she only heard the 'females can't serve' part, she'll believe that until corrected.)

 

[Michael Dorosh]

A lot of your problems with folks in Toronto may have more to do with the class of people you run into in the neighbourhoods around most of the armouries than any widespread dislike of the military in general or the CF in particular. Most of these people also shout insults at random passers-by -- since a lot of the homeless appear to have "mental health issues." I wouldn't take it too personally ...
I find it kind of appalling that our largest city has virtually no reg force military presence. In fact, now that 2 PPCLI is off in Shilo, most   major Canadian cities don't have large bases located in their boundaries or nearby. Edmonton, Halifax and Ottawa (if you count NDHQ) are the only exceptions I can think of: is it any wonder that so many civilians don't know squat about our military?

Absence makes the heart grow fonder....and familiarity breeds contempt.  This is nothing new; when the Canadians landed in England in 1939 and 1940, they were very warmly received in Scotland.  After riding on the train and marching through Aldershot - a garrison town for hundreds of years - they found the locals quite ambivalent to them.

The open hostility is a rare thing where I am from also, and usually from teenagers who pretty much feel that way about everyone, not just the Forces.

 

[enfield]

Civie: "babykiller! fascist pig!"
Soldier1: "Babykiller? nah, I'm the rapist. he's the babykiller. get it right." (points at Soldier 2)
;D

I've been called a babykiller, a fascist, a right wing nutcase, a psycho, etc., but only on the uni campus. Off campus, its just strange looks and a lack of understanding. I've personally found that many people, when you talk to them are curious about the military and what the military does, and are more ignorant than hostile.
In DEU's (wearing a kilt) I've been mistaken for: a bagpiper, a boy scout, a hotel doorman, a tourist guide, a US Marine, a British soldier, and just about anyone and everyone expept a Canadian soldier. That tells me the CF needs to at least let people know what we look like... Incidentally, almost everytime my buddies and I have gone to the bar in DEU's, an American former/current serviceman or group of them buys us a round.

 

[combat_medic]

While I can't voice any experience about civvies in Toronto, I can certainly testify that not all of the west is conservative. Having originally joined up in Edmonton, I noticed most people were farely well informed about the military, and were either openly supportive, or ambivalent to our presence (heck, I used to work at a McDonald's there and saw Iltis and other military vehicles in the drive thru on a regular basis).

However, I got a HUGE culture shock after moving to Vancouver. I worked downtown briefly, and would change into my uniform at work and take a quick bus to the armouries on parade nights. In the brief course of walking 2 blocks to the bus stop, and a 5 minute bus ride, I was subjected to shouts of "baby killer" or "warmonger" and other such nonsense all the time. During some training that took course at an armoury downtown, there was a huge anti war protest and, upon heading to my car, I had crazy war protesters throwing posters in my face and yelling obscenities at me.

In addition to this, there are stories from people out this way who tell of being denied entrance to a bar or club on Remembrance Day in dress uniform. People here are extremely anti-military and are not afraid to show their true colours.

All this aside, I did a recruiting drive at a women's show in Vancouver, and expected that, because most of the people attending were middle aged+ women and the occasional husband, that the questions would be more intelligent. I was sadly mistaken. Things like "you can't be in the army, they don't let women in" (to which I nearly responded, "thanks, that must mean I can go home now") or "you aren't paid as much as the men, are you?" or "my neighbour's kid is a brat, can I sign him up and you come by and take him?" Canadians in general seem to be grossly misinformed, and, despite the frustration at hearing the same stupid questions over and over, the best we can do is to try to be patient and help them be more informed.

 

[48Highlander]

Civie: "babykiller! fascist pig!"
Soldier1: "Babykiller? nah, I'm the rapist. he's the babykiller. get it right." (points at Soldier 2)
;D

I've witnessed a better response than that.  After being called a babykiller, the soldier in question leaned in nice and close and in the roughest voice he could manage groweld "and I always eat what I kill".  Might not have been too good for public relations, but the look on their faces was absolutely priceless.

 

[Bograt]

So Babykiller is an insult? Perhaps they should closely examine the political platform of the NDP.

I realize that this reference is objectionable. My point is the hypocrisy of their self righteousness. Anything counter to their opinion is labeled racist, right wing, or repressive.

Recently in a staff room over coffee a colleague stated to the left leaning audience "I don't know why we have a military, it seems like a waste of money to me..." Immediately I replied, "Don't you feel glad that they're people like me willing to volunteer to protect your right to say that? Silence was his response.

I come from an Air Force family. i know of the sacrifice associated with this line of work-the loss of life, strains on the family etc... Now as I prepare to join, these little exchanges keep me awake at night. My family and I are about to radically change the way we live. It is going to be very hard. Its frustrating hearing comments like that.

I have had a chat about this with a close family friend who just recently retired. He said,"ahh don't worry, you will be called worst by better people "

 

[bossi]

"The proof is in the pudding."
The simple fact of the matter is that many Canadians only know what they see on TV - thus, the "get out of Iraq" stuff shouldn't surprise anybody, inasmuch as these people only know that every night they see soldiers in Iraq.  They can't tell the difference between American and Canadian soldiers, hence the confusion.

So what?  Well, the Canadian Army is trying to "Connect With Canadians" in order to correct this lack of knowledge.
In order to try and show the Canadian taxpayer what their soldiers look like, we wear CADPAT in public (... as opposed to the "bad old days" when cbt clo in public was forbidden by the bumbling briefcase bandits ...)

 

[foerestedwarrior]

The worst I've run into was watching a drunk guy trow a 12 case of empty bottles over our compund fence and walk away, when we asked him to pick them up(politely) He promplty told us to screw off. So the two police officers that both worked for the city had a little chat with him, nedless to say they were picked up by him. I have ony run into the normal, arnt you afraid of dying in iraq junk, you have to take it in stride. All of you are saying it is lack of info that causes ignorance, why not try to inform them, i have conversasions with peopel all the time. They usually come out a much better educated person.