Indian Artillery meets Monty Python

[Old Sweat]

This is the first time I have seen the quotation, but it falls into the "I wish I had written that" category.

Now, to get back to the gun detachment issue, the voice on the PA on the clip mentioned an eight man detachment. That seems pretty well to negate the huge savings from the use of an APU argument. Eight is still none too many, especially if we put it in the Canadian context with an austere gun position with a troop responsible for its own defence and providing direct support. (You probably raise the eight to ten by using the drivers of the gun tractor and the TLAV that carried most of the detachment.) Let's send one gunner on leave and have one sick and one or two on sentry and we are talking a six or seven member detachment for 24/7/365 operations. Duties in action (we identify gun numbers by number, which  . . circular argument): 1 commands the detachment; 2 operates the breech and fires the howitzer; 3 sets the sights and lays the howitzer; 4 and 5 put the projectile on the tray and ram it; 6 loads the propelling charge; and 7 along with 4-6 prepare ammunition.

Put that in the context of a quick fire plan to support a company attack with two or three serials including both smoke and proximity fuzed rounds along with basic HE impact fuzes. There's an awful lot of scrambling before the fire plan starts to prepare and lay out the rounds and propelling charges for each target on the fire plan and then the detachment has to maintain the ordered rate and exact duration of fire for each target. Tell me how an APU really adds anything to this equation. Better yet, try it with three gun numbers even with automatic loading.

 

[George Wallace]

As well, when that APU breaks down at the worse of all moments (Murphy's Law), how much extra weight do the Gun Members now have to contend with?

 

[fraserdw]

The equipment is old and dates from a time when M114 was king of the towed 155s.  As noted by others the APU can actually be disadvantage even if a manual back up system is employed the weight of the APU has to be considered when using the manual system.  An APU is also one more infernal (yes I mean infernal) combustion engine for the battery to maintain.  Big, maintainence intensive and expensive, but back then a leap forward for towed equipment.  Give me an SP, indeed Pz H 2000 please, it's the 21st century!

 

[Old Sweat]

The extra weight is probably immaterial in most circumstances. If the howitzer has to be realigned towards a target outside the on-carriage traverse, the detachment has to perform a procedure called "take post to lay." Without getting too technical, it involves manhandling the spades out of the pits they have dug themselves in by firing and shifting the trails to point the barrel at the new target. A trick that makes it easier - which is an oxymoron as it is never easy - is to have a gun number hang on the front of the barrel. By basic physics this takes a lot of weight off the trails and Bob's your uncle.

With an APU, it would first pull the spades out of their pits, the detachment would then lift the trails and lower the auxillary wheels and the operator would move the barrel to the new alignment. Up go the wheels and the detachment then lowers the trails. Does this really justify an APU? More important, how do you do this with a two or three man/woman detachment?

 

[fraserdw]

Yes, I got some arty time myself.  What I am staying is that if the APU broke, the extra weight of the APU is going to make it near impossible for a reduced det, even with 2 members playing monkey on the end of the barrel, to manually move the piece.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The extra weight is probably immaterial in most circumstances. If the howitzer has to be realigned towards a target outside the on-carriage traverse, the detachment has to perform a procedure called "take post to lay." Without getting too technical, it involves manhandling the spades out of the pits they have dug themselves in by firing and shifting the trails to point the barrel at the new target. A trick that makes it easier - which is an oxymoron as it is never easy - is to have a gun number hang on the front of the barrel. By basic physics this takes a lot of weight off the trails and Bob's your uncle.

With an APU, it would first pull the spades out of their pits, the detachment would then lift the trails and lower the auxillary wheels and the operator would move the barrel to the new alignment. Up go the wheels and the detachment then lowers the trails. Does this really justify an APU? More important, how do you do this with a two or three man/woman detachment?

Would hanging off the barrel not affect the ways?

 

[George Wallace]

When I was a Gunner, Hanging off the Queen's Colours meant several laps of the parade Square holding the Hand Spike above our heads.    >

 

[Old Sweat]

We're talking about when moving the gun in action, aka manhandling. I first encountered this as a recruit in the RCA Depot. Our detachment was manhandling a 105 C1 over a field and we came to a difficult patch. It was hard going on the soft prairie soil and the AIG drapped himself over the muzzle end of the barrel. This application of basic leverage took almost all the weight off the trails and the No 1 was able to get us through the patch by having 2 and 3 alternate applying the brake to each wheel while the rest of us pushed the opposite trail.

Believe me. It is legal and it works. It also probably dates back to the black powder days.

And George, you are correct that anybody who would sit on or lean on the Colours in garrison would be shat on from high.

 

[fraserdw]

The gun in question is almost 3 times the weight of the C1.  Regardless, towed artillery is doctrinally obsolete unless you are fight illiterates with AKs OR you have 100% air superiority 100% of the time and the other side has no modern counter-battery detection ability.  Pz H 2000 please!

 

[George Wallace]

The C1 was a very good design with a "center of gravity" that allowed for it to be manhandled easily.

I would assume (there is that word) that the majority of towed artillery are as well designed.

As for towed artillery being obsolete, I would debate that.  Yes I would love to see us have SPGs, but we have an excellent gun in the M777.  One advantage of towed arty, is that when the prime mover is not functioning (mechanical breakdown, battle damage, whatever), another prime mover can replace it and the gun can be moved and put into action somewhere else.  With a SPG, although maneuverable, if its engine, transmission or suspension are out of action, so is the gun for the most part.

 

[GnyHwy]

When I was a Gunner, Hanging off the Queen's Colours meant several laps of the parade Square holding the Hand Spike above our heads.    >

Or the duck walk with the handspike above your head.  Come to think of it, that may look good along side that crazy drill their doing.

 

[Old Sweat]

The gun in question is almost 3 times the weight of the C1.  Regardless, towed artillery is doctrinally obsolete unless you are fight illiterates with AKs OR you have 100% air superiority 100% of the time and the other side has no modern counter-battery detection ability.  Pz H 2000 please!

Indeed it is, as was the 155mm towed howitzer that served in the RCA for ten years. As an officer cadet I was a member of a gun detachment on several occasions and it is brutally hard work, but it can be done. (I also was put in charge of bringing the M109s in the RCSA Shilo into service in 1968 and then trained several hundred people ranging from full colonel to "TQ 3 gunners" on it, and can get misty eyed about SPs if you plie me with strong or even weak drink.

As for your other argument re the threat, could you come up with a scenario that fits your paramaters? Anything is possible, I guess, but current projections suggest that your possible threat is unlikely.

And last, I had a long interview with the gentleman who was the BSM E Battery on TF 3-06 (and picked up a MSM and a MiD) on the tour. He had experience with the Pz H 2000 as a platoon of Dutch SPs was attached to his battery during Medusa. According to him, there were some serviceability difficulties with these howizers during the operation - no slur intended towards our Dutch allies - as these were equipment related.

Let's not turn this into a dick measuring contest and agree to disagree.

 

[fraserdw]

You mistake the level of interest I have in the issue.  I have no need to measure anything.  I am stating current Artillery doctrinal discussions nothing more.  As to Pz H 2000 in the sandbox, yeah I bet, like AH64 in Gulf War 1 they are designed for NW Europe.  The sandbox is probably very hard on them.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Sorry, my question about the ways was serious. I had to move two guns off a flat bed one time, after asking the Arty innumerable times over a number of days, by slinging it. I put the strap under the ways and trails, having some idea how the gun worked. The trailer was costing us about $500.00 a day for sitting there with the guns on it.

I was accosted by an Arty Sgt for doing so and received a lengthy lecture on the delicacy of said ways.

When all was said and done, it would seem that I had unloaded it exactly the way they (the Arty) would have done it.

I know we used to shyte all over any crew member that decided to hang off the end of our tank gun.

I'm just trying to understand why this would be different while shifting a POA on an arty piece, by hanging off of the barrel.

But, I guess if an AIG does it, then it's OK.

 

[Old Sweat]

I am not sure what you mean when referring to "ways" but when rigging for a helicopter move, as far as I can remember, we used three points - one on each trail and one somehwere forward of the shields (I can't remember whether it was on the tube or the carriage) - to attach the sling. If you did something similar, I can't see what the beef was about.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

A trick that makes it easier - which is an oxymoron as it is never easy - is to have a gun number hang on the front of the barrel. By basic physics this takes a lot of weight off the trails and Bob's your uncle.

We do that all the time when moving our guns (C2/C3's) in and out of the barn........ Wonder if it is the same with the LG-1's?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I am not sure what you mean when referring to "ways" but when rigging for a helicopter move, as far as I can remember, we used three points - one on each trail and one somehwere forward of the shields (I can't remember whether it was on the tube or the carriage) - to attach the sling. If you did something similar, I can't see what the beef was about.

The ways are the rails on the carriage that the gun slides back and forth on. Maybe I'm using the wrong terminology for guns. On machines they're called ways.

 

[Old Sweat]

The ways are the rails on the carriage that the gun slides back and forth on. Maybe I'm using the wrong terminology for guns. On machines they're called ways.

We call them slides, I believe. They and the equivalent parts of the recoiling mass are made of dissimilar metals, if this will help confirm we are talking about the same bits.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

We call them slides, I believe. They and the equivalent parts of the recoiling mass are made of dissimilar metals, if this will help confirm we are talking about the same bits.

Thanks OS, that sounds like them.

 

[Petard]

Recce Guy, I can understand the gunners apprehension for someone trying to sling a gun without checking how its supposed to be done. In 2007 I seen an M777 damaged and put out of action for months, at the worst possible time, all because somebody didn't bother to check how the gun should be properly secured to a low bed 
The old C3's are particularly vulnerable to tension/compression failure about the slides, or ways, as was recently seen in Gagetown

As for them letting it sit there that long before getting off their duff's, well, I dunno

Back to subject gun in the video; given the mass of that thing, it would be a beast to manhandle, even with the APU working, and watching all that prancing around doesn't make it look any better
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8hP9-qnAxk