Indirect Fires Modernization Project - C3/M777 Replacement

[Colin Parkinson]

I'd avoid the .50's, they aren't worth anything for that role.
I'd look strongly at @Kirkhill 's 35mm, static, mounted on a LAV, and mounted on a Leo2 Chassis
Then get a bunch of NAMSAMS and MSHORAD LAV

Based on the expericen down here, I wouldn't waste ADA PY on MANPAD systems, they can be used by Inf/Arm/Eng etc with a short usage course - and a radio link to the ADA Cell.

I am assuming it will take a long time before we get any real equipment, so at least they have something to play with to keep them engaged. The key is to get started now and since most of the C3 are failing, it will give them something to do instead of pretending an 81mm mortar is a substitute for a full sized artillery gun. We can't replace an artillery system despite knowing for 20 years they needed to be replaced. The chances of us getting enough higher end AD systems for the Reserves in the next decade is exceedingly small. We be lucky to have the .50cals and manpad simulator for each unit.

 

[Kirkhill]

As I suggested before, right now stand up a AD troop in every Reserve Battery. 2x 3-4 man detachments, Troop NCO and Officer. For now give them .50cals on high angle mounts, buy some Manpad simulators. Get them out in the field practising and learning the fieldcraft of AD (movement, hides, camouflage, sectors, resupply, self-defense). Troop officers focus on that for the first part, then they focus on the AD integration. You need 3 more Milcots for each troop.
Meanwhile the CAF gets motivated and buys a lightweight gun/missile system and individual Manpads. The gun/missile systems goes out to the Troops and they learn how to use them effectively.

I would buy them Tablets and PCs with war games. Those skills are going to be much more transferable. Buy a dozen Millenium Guns for Summer Camps. The mechanics need to be able to maintain the guns. Loading needs to be practiced. But the real arts are in picking sites for the guns, mutual support and fire discipline. And those skills don't require the guns to fire. In fact, given that some of these air defence systems are working with 25 km separations between nodes it is entirely likely that the troop commander will never hear the launch or the hit and will observe the entire engagement on the video screen.

Whether that screen is in a truck, a bunker or on a ship.

And you can equip a section with UAVs to keep things interesting

 

[Furniture]

I would buy them Tablets and PCs with war games. Those skills are going to be much more transferable. Buy a dozen Millenium Guns for Summer Camps. The mechanics need to be able to maintain the guns. Loading needs to be practiced. But the real arts are in picking sites for the guns, mutual support and fire discipline. And those skills don't require the guns to fire. In fact, given that some of these air defence systems are working with 25 km separations between nodes it is entirely likely that the troop commander will never hear the launch or the hit and will observe the entire engagement on the video screen.

Whether that screen is in a truck, a bunker or on a ship.

And you can equip a section with UAVs to keep things interesting

My problem with notional/virtual training is it allows people to hand wave away inconveniences, that in the real world make ideas unworkable.

In a video game/simulator you can place weapon systems in spots that a real vehicle couldn't actually get to, couldn't be supported logistically. Nothing replaces having to mount up, and actually set-up the systems, and make them work. It doesn't require launching missiles/shooting guns, but it requires actually doing it.

 

[Kirkhill]

My problem with notional/virtual training is it allows people to hand wave away inconveniences, that in the real world make ideas unworkable.

In a video game/simulator you can place weapon systems in spots that a real vehicle couldn't actually get to, couldn't be supported logistically. Nothing replaces having to mount up, and actually set-up the systems, and make them work. It doesn't require launching missiles/shooting guns, but it requires actually doing it.

The 80% solution is available to you virtually.

That reduces the number of IRL lessons that have to be learned.
Two weeks at Summer Camp with real guns then become that much more effective.

And absent IRL training you have 80% efficient trainees that understand the language and are easier to supervise and polish.

 

[Maxman1]

I'd avoid the .50's, they aren't worth anything for that role.
I'd look strongly at @Kirkhill 's 35mm, static, mounted on a LAV, and mounted on a Leo2 Chassis
Then get a bunch of NAMSAMS and MSHORAD LAV

Based on the expericen down here, I wouldn't waste ADA PY on MANPAD systems, they can be used by Inf/Arm/Eng etc with a short usage course - and a radio link to the ADA Cell.

Or have GDLS produce these.

 

[MilEME09]

Or have GDLS produce these.

Well we have seen how effective gun systems are against UAVs, so why not?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The 80% solution is available to you virtually.

That reduces the number of IRL lessons that have to be learned.
Two weeks at Summer Camp with real guns then become that much more effective.

And absent IRL training you have 80% efficient trainees that understand the language and are easier to supervise and polish.

You can do both, but Ukraine is teaching us that fieldcraft, camouflage and track discipline is important and neglecting it cost lives and equipment. At the armoury you can run interconnected sims and training scenarios, yes they can learn the why, when and how of AD there. Then putting that knowledge to the test in real life.

I also argue that AD detachment will have to be fairly self sufficient in food, fuel and equipment. They may go days without resupply or fresh rations (unless they make their own)

I also start teaching people how to make L trenches again and how to sh*t in the woods.

 

[Kirkhill]

You can do both, but Ukraine is teaching us that fieldcraft, camouflage and track discipline is important and neglecting it cost lives and equipment. At the armoury you can run interconnected sims and training scenarios, yes they can learn the why, when and how of AD there. Then putting that knowledge to the test in real life.

I also argue that AD detachment will have to be fairly self sufficient in food, fuel and equipment. They may go days without resupply or fresh rations (unless they make their own)

I also start teaching people how to make L trenches again and how to sh*t in the woods.

You are talking about basic infantry fieldcraft there. All good to me.

But for teaching siting of Line of Sight weapons systems like this, do you really need anything more than a pickup truck and a telescope?

I concede that teaching them how to fire from the backs of their trucks will require a bit more practice....

Firing from the top of a ship would probably be easier

 

[daftandbarmy]

You can do both, but Ukraine is teaching us that fieldcraft, camouflage and track discipline is important and neglecting it cost lives and equipment. At the armoury you can run interconnected sims and training scenarios, yes they can learn the why, when and how of AD there. Then putting that knowledge to the test in real life.

I also argue that AD detachment will have to be fairly self sufficient in food, fuel and equipment. They may go days without resupply or fresh rations (unless they make their own)

I also start teaching people how to make L trenches again and how to sh*t in the woods.

From 4th LAA Regt's War Diary, Normandy 1944.... an earlier entry mentioned that 'slit trenches are very popular'

 

[markppcli]

As I suggested before, right now stand up a AD troop in every Reserve Battery. 2x 3-4 man detachments, Troop NCO and Officer. For now give them .50cals on high angle mounts, buy some Manpad simulators. Get them out in the field practising and learning the fieldcraft of AD (movement, hides, camouflage, sectors, resupply, self-defense). Troop officers focus on that for the first part, then they focus on the AD integration. You need 3 more Milcots for each troop.
Meanwhile the CAF gets motivated and buys a lightweight gun/missile system and individual Manpads. The gun/missile systems goes out to the Troops and they learn how to use them effectively.

Simulators already exist, the enemy force guys in Cold Lake use the JMANPAD to simulate air defence threats for the fighters. Seems like a good training tool to me.

Oh those leopards 1s are spoken for, they’re targetry in Cold Lake as we speak.

 

[Kirkhill]

From 4th LAA Regt's War Diary, Normandy 1944.... an earlier entry mentioned that 'slit trenches are very popular'



View attachment 77461

Slit trenches "very popular" - especially when someone else has dug them.

Now if only Susannah York was in the bottom of every trench.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Simulators already exist, the enemy force guys in Cold Lake use the JMANPAD to simulate air defence threats for the fighters. Seems like a good training tool to me.

Oh those leopards 1s are spoken for, they’re targetry in Cold Lake as we speak.

Yes i saw them in an article last year and got all excited that we had finally gotten into the AD game. As I understand it they are used to train pilots to evade the Manpad threat?

As for the Leo 1's we are pretty sucky on timing, a few more years and we could have donated them to Ukraine. However there are quite a few Leo 1's going to Ukraine as we speak from other countries. Those were the ones I was thinking of. 10 more Geapard would be more worthwhile than 10 Leo 1 gun tanks.

 

[markppcli]

Yes i saw them in an article last year and got all excited that we had finally gotten into the AD game. As I understand it they are used to train pilots to evade the Manpad threat?

Yeah precisely that.

As for the Leo 1's we are pretty sucky on timing, a few more years and we could have donated them to Ukraine. However there are quite a few Leo 1's going to Ukraine as we speak from other countries. Those were the ones I was thinking of. 10 more Geapard would be more worthwhile than 10 Leo 1 gun tanks.

I’d be happy if we’d just refurbish the 35mm’s and tow them frankly.

 

[Kirkhill]

1x VSHORAD Gun "Battery" of
1x Cmd Module
1x Sensor Module (Radar)
4x Gun Modules (35mm EO/TREO)

Cost of "Battery" - 91 MEUR
Cost of Trucks for battery - 6 MEUR
Total Cost - 97 MEUR

Rheinmetall Awarded Contract for Skynex Air Defence System

Rheinmetall announced that they had been awarded a contract to supply two Skynex very short range air defence (VSHORAD) system batteries to an undisclosed customer.

euro-sd.com

35MM Oerlikon Skyguard SWE​

Artillery Collection, Gun Park, Our Collection / By rca_admin
First developed in the late 1950s, the Oerlikon 35mm is one of the most widely used modern anti-aircraft guns.
Used by the Canadian Army 1989 to 2005, the guns provided low-level air defence for two Canadian NATO airfields in Germany. Normally controlled in pairs by a Skyguard radar, the GDF-005 was also fitted with a Gun King 3D computer-controlled sight with a laser range finder and digital fire control system, allowing it to function independently if required.
The Canadian batteries consisted of four Skyguard radars and eight GDF-005 guns. Guns captured from the Argentine forces during the Falkland War in 1982 were put into British service.
Weight of Projectile: 1.565 kg (3.45 lb)
Range: 4,000 m
Detachment: 5 Gunners, gun and towing vehicle

35MM Oerlikon Skyguard SWE - The Royal Canadian Artillery Museum

First developed in the late 1950s, the Oerlikon 35mm is one of the most widely used modern anti-aircraft guns. Used by the Canadian Army 1989 to 2005, the guns provided low-level air defence for two Canadian NATO airfields in Germany. Normally controlled in pairs by a Skyguard radar, the GDF-005...

en.rcamuseum.com

In 1987, 4th Air Defence Regiment RCA, (127, 128 and 129 AD Batteries), was formed at Lahr, Germany; the latter two batteries were airfield defence batteries equipped with four Skyguard sections (a Skyguard fire control radar and two twin 35mm Oerlikon GDF-005 gun systems each), and a troop of four ADATS SHORAD missile systems. 127 AD Battery was tasked with protection of 4 CMBG, equipped with 12 ADATS. 119 AD Battery was also re-equipped with ADATS. During this period three Militia units were re-equipped as air defence artillery: 18th AD Regiment in Lethbridge, 1 AD Regiment in Pembroke and 58e Batterie d’artillerie antiaérienne, 6 RAC in Levis, Quebec. Each unit received Javelin S-15, the replacement for Blowpipe.

www.canadiansoldiers.com

www.canadiansoldiers.com

www.canadiansoldiers.com

Current offer seems to be 4 guns per sensor (radar) instead of 2 and 2 sensors per command module instead of 1.

From Wiki

Canada: 20 GDF-005 units and 10 Skyguard FC radars in stock for emergency


It would seem to me that in Canadian parlance the 100 MEUR "battery" might be more of a "troop".

 

[Kirkhill]

1 SHORAD "battery" of 2 iLaunchers with missiles
Sensor module(s)
Command module(s)
Total Cost 108 MUSD (2376/22)

In total, MBDA will supply 44 iLaunchers and several hundred CAMM missiles and related equipment in a deal valued at £1.9 billion (USD 2376, approx.) to support Poland’s modernization and build-up of a total of 22 PILICA+ air defense batteries, making it NATO’s largest European short-range air defense procurement program.

Poland and MBDA signed contract for the acquisition of CAMM air defense system

MBDA has been contracted by the Polish Armaments Agency to supply CAMM missiles and iLaunchers for the Polish air defense modernization program PILICA+. In t

www.aviacionline.com

In British service the iLauncher and CAMM is the back bone of the Sky Sabre SHORAD system

Command Module
Sensor Module(s) - Giraffe - 100 km detection range
Launcher Modules - CAMM - 25 km range
Fire Unit Support Vehicles - 2 per Launcher Vehicle

“Sky Sabre’s spearheading technology has significantly upgraded the protection of our forces from threats from the air. This cutting-edge of defence system is a clear demonstration of our warfighting capabilities to those who wish to do us harm.”

Sky Sabre has three key components expected to operate up to 15km apart in the battlespace:

• A Giraffe Agile Multi Beam 3D medium-range surveillance radar that rotates 360 degrees on an extending mast and can scan out to 120km for threats.

• A pioneering computer system linking up the radar and missiles sending them to their targets. It also provides ‘Link 16’, a tactical datalink allowing Sky Sabre to share its information with Royal Navy vessels, Royal Air Force systems and our allies providing full integration across UK Armed Forces and joint NATO operations.

• At 99kg each, the Common Anti-Air Modular Missiles (CAMM) are double the weight of Rapier and have three times the range. They can reach speeds of 2,300mph eliminating fighter aircraft, drones and even laser-guided smart bombs. Eight missiles are mounted on the launcher, which fire in a unique multi-directional manner that significantly reduces its signature making it less of a target for adversaries. The launcher also re-arms in less than half the time of Rapier.

Advanced ‘detect and destroy’ air defence system launched

Sky Sabre, a state-of-the-art air defence system, replaces Rapier, propelling the British Army to the forefront of ground-based air defence missile technology.

www.gov.uk

The Land Ceptor system of Sky Sabre Air Defence System, includes the CAMM, a launcher vehicle, and two fire unit support vehicles. It protects ground-based forces from aerial threats including combat aircraft and air-launched weapons.

Sky Sabre Air Defence System, United Kingdom

Sky Sabre is an advanced beyond visual range air defense system developed for British Army’s ground-based air defence requirements.

www.army-technology.com

 

[Rifleman62]

I believe that 128 and 129 AD Batteries also relied on Air Force pers to assist with manning the guns. Could not immagine running across an airfield under attack when the option was Susannah York in the bottom of every trench.

 

[Kirkhill]

Poland is integrating its SHORAD and VSHORAD capabilities

Designed by PGZ (a consortium composed of several Polish defense companies), the PILICA+ will combine MBDA’s radar-guided short-range CAMM missiles with the PILICA very short-range air defense system, composed of Polish ZUR-23-2SP 23mm guns derived from the Soviet ZU-23-2 model, to which is added a double launcher of Grom or Piorun missiles (also designed in Poland and successfully combat-tested in Ukraine).

Polish Air Force Takes Delivery of Two More PSRA Pilica VSHORAD Systems

On December 22, another two sets of the PSRA Pilica very short range air defense (VSHORAD) anti-aircraft missile and artillery ...

militaryleak.com

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I believe that 128 and 129 AD Batteries also relied on Air Force pers to assist with manning the guns. Could not immagine running across an airfield under attack when the option was Susannah York in the bottom of every trench.

Nope. Not in the LLAD era.

 

[Kirkhill]

And for the armoured manoeuvre forces

Same gun on a different platform. The Millenium 35 as RWS on a Boxer = Skyranger

Skyranger 35 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The video references the SkyRanger 30 HEL

Due to the system’s reduced weight, the Skyranger 30 turret is able to integrate two short-range surface-to-air missiles (SAMs). Missiles guided by laser beam riding or infrared homing such as the FIM-92 Stinger or Mistral can be integrated, as well as the SkyKnight. Depending on the type, missiles extend range up to 8-9 km, while the gun covers the space under their minimum engagement range.[1][2][3]

To detect targets, the Skyranger 30 uses the S-band AESA Multi-Mission Radar (AMMR) developed by Rheinmetall Italia. Five flat antennas integrated around the turret provide full 360° coverage. The AMMR has a detection range of over 20 km for a 1 m2 RCS aircraft, 12 km against hovering helicopters, 10 km against missiles, and 5 km against RAM targets and micro-UAS. For passive detection, the vehicle is installed with Rheinmetall’s FIRST (Fast InfraRed Search and Track), which is optimized to detect pop-up targets such as helicopters. Identification and tracking is handled by a compact target tracker that includes one HD cooled MWIR thermal camera, one full-HD TV camera, and two laser rangefinders, one devoted to air targets and the other for land targets.[1][4]

Additional add-ons are under consideration, including electronic warfare systems in the form of passive emitter locators to pick up UAV data link signals, as well as RF-jammers to jam such links to neutralize UAVs without using kinetic effectors.[1]

In late 2021, Rheinmetall unveiled the Skyranger 30 high-energy laser (HEL), intended to increase the system's ability to neutralize small targets at greater range and lower cost. The initial power level is 20 kw, with an immediate goal to increase it to 50 kw and an ideal goal of 100 kw.[5][6]

Skyranger 30 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Detect, Track and Engage in one RWS, independent of platform. With three engagement options. Laser, Missile, Gun.

Best solution, made in Canada/Quebec?, for Canadian Army Regs and Reserves? RCN?

Swap out the A Guns on the MCDVs and the AOPSs? Replace the pair of BAE 30mms planned for each of the CSCs?

 

[markppcli]

Maybe if we ask nice enough the Poles will build some of these for us.