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Indirect Fires Modernization Project - C3/M777 Replacement

Kirkhill said:
ukdefencejournal.org.uk

Britain contracts ‘Tiberius’ ramjet artillery munition

Tiberius Aerospace has announced it has secured a UK Ministry of Defence contract to support the rapid trials and development of its Sceptre ramjet artillery round, a new extended-range precision-guided 155mm munition.
ukdefencejournal.org.uk ukdefencejournal.org.uk

150 km ramjet round for the Royal Artillery. Tiberius.

Those M777s that you are putting into storage.... GS Regiment with 24 howitzers?
Supplement to the HIMARS?
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Better to keep the M777's for the eventual Light Bde.
 
GK .Dundas said:
Reminds me of the .50 /81 MM Mortar system used by USN / USGC .
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Forgot about that system, used on their riverine patrol craft

k-35637-444efb-1024.jpg
 
USN thing with headphones in it to get fire control commands.

To bend that to this thread, I wonder if DRES/DCIM should be experimenting with full face helmets to reduce TBI for gun crews?
 
KevinB said:
Better to keep the M777's for the eventual Light Bde.
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Some folks consider light forces as part of a strategic reserve - keep in the rear and apply in event of emergency. Having the M777s associated with the light troops a
AND equipped with Tiberius doesn't seem incongruous to me. From deep they can offer General Support. They could also move in Close with the light troops when they are deployed forward.
 
Kirkhill said:
150 km ramjet round for the Royal Artillery. Tiberius.

Those M777s that you are putting into storage.... GS Regiment with 24 howitzers?
Supplement to the HIMARS?
Click to expand...
I think putting them into storage is somewhat dumb. We still have three light battalions. We still have a potential for missions where an FOB is plausible. I'm of the view we need to keep one regiment of three six-gun batteries equipped with M777s. If those batteries need to go to Latvia and we have SPs by then, then its a five day conversion course and they're good to go.

I'm still of the view that we need to distribute at least half of the SPs to the ARes.

The GS function is a question of the div structure we are going to. We have three reg force regiments. one as M777, one as SP, one as LRPR. 4 GS will be too busy with AD and drones and radars to take on a fire unit. That means whatever we intend to do for GS either requires more PY's (the reg force choice - I sense 3 RCHA reforming) or it goes to hybrid 30/70 ARes units. You know where my head is at.

The choice for a GS unit is the SP because it will come with a L/52 calibre barrel while the M777 only has an L/33. Besides that you want better shoot and scoot than the M777 offers. - I like the ramjet idea - cost is the issue and the payload is limited vis-a-vis a rocket.

Kirkhill said:
Some folks consider light forces as part of a strategic reserve - keep in the rear and apply in event of emergency. Having the M777s associated with the light troops a
AND equipped with Tiberius doesn't seem incongruous to me. From deep they can offer General Support. They could also move in Close with the light troops when they are deployed forward.
Click to expand...
There are other roles then LSCO that we might deploy on. Having light troops and lighter guns in our hip pockets is a good idea.

You do not EQUIP artillery with ammunition. We SUPPLY ammunition. I agree with having ramjet rounds in our ammo inventory. It doesn't matter what gun its sent down to at the end of the day. I'm reminded though that we never did fire off all of our small supply of Excalibur in Afghanistan.

🍻
 
Colin Parkinson said:
To bend that to this thread, I wonder if DRES/DCIM should be experimenting with full face helmets to reduce TBI for gun crews?
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There is already a few full face systems are part of the Iron Man setup and with IVAS (think HALO Spartans). The problem is they really need to be hooked up to pressured air - as they don’t ventilate well and become very claustrophobic quickly without an air stream.
Not a major issue for vehicle crews (as long as they aren’t expected to be mobile in the vehicle), but for dismounted work no one wants to run a SCBA unless it’s a NBC reason.
 
KevinB said:
There is already a few full face systems are part of the Iron Man setup and with IVAS (think HALO Spartans). The problem is they really need to be hooked up to pressured air - as they don’t ventilate well and become very claustrophobic quickly without an air stream.
Not a major issue for vehicle crews (as long as they aren’t expected to be mobile in the vehicle), but for dismounted work no one wants to run a SCBA unless it’s a NBC reason.
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Wouldn't the rest of the body be pressurised by the blast in any case? Squeeze the toothpaste in the tube and it all tries to get into the cap.
 
Kirkhill said:
Wouldn't the rest of the body be pressurised by the blast in any case? Squeeze the toothpaste in the tube and it all tries to get into the cap.
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The amount of pressure to cause significant damage to the body is a lot different than the head.

The shockwave from the muzzle blast on large caliber systems (I’m not including the massive naval guns from BB’s of old in that) isn’t going to jelly the body and the exposure time isn’t going to spike anything to have blood pressure issues to the head from the rest of the body.

I’m not a neuroscientist, but generally if you can isolate the head, your are pretty well protected from most over pressure issues from weapon system muzzle blast.

Now blast waves from various explosions from payloads or devices are a totally different thing, as AFV crews hit by IED’s have shown.
Even if you didn’t suffer any noticeable damage at the time (and drove back to the FOB and hadn’t realized that your vehicle got hit) damage can have occurred, and multiple concussions unless allowed to heal have a habit of exponentially increase issues of significant TBI.

So imagine multiple rounds being fired by a 120mm mortar crew, then do that for a few days straight, and it’s a recipe for disaster, as unlike a SPA, or Tank, there isn’t an intervening vehicle between you and the blast.
 
KevinB said:
The amount of pressure to cause significant damage to the body is a lot different than the head.

The shockwave from the muzzle blast on large caliber systems (I’m not including the massive naval guns from BB’s of old in that) isn’t going to jelly the body and the exposure time isn’t going to spike anything to have blood pressure issues to the head from the rest of the body.

I’m not a neuroscientist, but generally if you can isolate the head, your are pretty well protected from most over pressure issues from weapon system muzzle blast.

Now blast waves from various explosions from payloads or devices are a totally different thing, as AFV crews hit by IED’s have shown.
Even if you didn’t suffer any noticeable damage at the time (and drove back to the FOB and hadn’t realized that your vehicle got hit) damage can have occurred, and multiple concussions unless allowed to heal have a habit of exponentially increase issues of significant TBI.

So imagine multiple rounds being fired by a 120mm mortar crew, then do that for a few days straight, and it’s a recipe for disaster, as unlike a SPA, or Tank, there isn’t an intervening vehicle between you and the blast.
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Isn't there a similar problem with the Carl Gustaf? I seem to remember something like a 6-round limit for a firing crew.
 
Kirkhill said:
Isn't there a similar problem with the Carl Gustaf? I seem to remember something like a 6-round limit for a firing crew.
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With RAP yes, I’m not sure on the others.
But I wouldn’t be surprised, as .50BMG will do it too, as will the .300 Norma Mag, .338 Lapua and Norma Mags unsuppressed.
 
KevinB said:
The amount of pressure to cause significant damage to the body is a lot different than the head.

The shockwave from the muzzle blast on large caliber systems (I’m not including the massive naval guns from BB’s of old in that) isn’t going to jelly the body and the exposure time isn’t going to spike anything to have blood pressure issues to the head from the rest of the body.

I’m not a neuroscientist, but generally if you can isolate the head, your are pretty well protected from most over pressure issues from weapon system muzzle blast.

Now blast waves from various explosions from payloads or devices are a totally different thing, as AFV crews hit by IED’s have shown.
Even if you didn’t suffer any noticeable damage at the time (and drove back to the FOB and hadn’t realized that your vehicle got hit) damage can have occurred, and multiple concussions unless allowed to heal have a habit of exponentially increase issues of significant TBI.

So imagine multiple rounds being fired by a 120mm mortar crew, then do that for a few days straight, and it’s a recipe for disaster, as unlike a SPA, or Tank, there isn’t an intervening vehicle between you and the blast.
Click to expand...
So this

il_570xN.3323611763_onmz.jpg
 
Maybe this should all be in another thread...

www.abc.net.au

Watch what happens when ADF soldiers fire the Carl Gustaf recoilless rifle

This weapon that has been fired by decades of Australian soldiers may have been causing damage to their brains.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au

Soldiers like Sergeant Jennings never forget the feeling of firing weapons like the Carl Gustaf recoilless rifle, known as the 84.

"You can feel the pressure wave going through all your sinus cavities."

The weapon is so infamous for making soldiers feel physically sick from the gut-punching blast wave it emits that its manufacturer, Saab, even notes it has been nicknamed the "Charlie guts ache" by Australian soldiers on its website.
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During training, two soldiers and a safety supervisor must be in close proximity when it is fired, exposing all of them to high levels of blast overpressure.

....


To demonstrate the safety protocols in place to protect soldiers, the Australian Army gave 7.30 footage of infantry soldiers training with the weapon behind three-walled concrete firing bays designed to protect soldiers if a rocket detonated short of its target.

A 2021 US Marine Corps technical operator manual seen by 7.30 instructs marines firing the same weapon to do so from an open firing point to reduce the risk of the concrete barriers amplifying the blast overpressure back onto soldiers.

Uniformed Services University researcher Joshua Whitty, from the US-based CONQUER blast monitoring project, said the Australian Army had "inadvertently created a very real hazard that affects everyone in those firing points" by using the concrete barriers.
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For more than a decade, the Australian Army has placed limits on how many rounds can be fired in a 24-hour period because of concerns about the amount of blast overpressure it exposes soldiers to.

...

According to range documents seen by the ABC, depending on the kind of round fired, soldiers can only fire between four and seven rounds on a Carl Gustaf 84 in a 24-hour period. That includes the second operator and safety supervisor standing next to them.

Sergeant Jennings was in the safety supervising role for years and said he ensured he stuck to the rules for his trainees.

But due to staff shortages and pressure to get soldiers trained, he said he was regularly exposed above daily limits, including, on one occasion, to 46 rounds in 36 hours.
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I wonder how those new CS (Confined Space) rounds work out. The back blast is managed but how about the muzzle blast.

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The last article talks about the 120mm mortar, the CG84, and a couple of breaching charges and the effect on those in close proximity.
 
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Kirkhill said:
I wonder how those new CS (Confined Space) rounds work out. The back blast is managed but how about the muzzle blast.
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No concern about muzzle blast. If you don't get hit by the warhead you'll be fine.
The 84mm AT4 CS has a salt water counter weight and a much smaller propelling charge. Equal and opposite reactions and all that. It does give up 100m in range and I have found ones where the counter mass has leaked out. When that happens you get a warhead going a very short distance.
 
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