Informing the Army’s Future Structure - CAMO Discussion

[daftandbarmy]

So begins the changes, CANFORGEN dropped this morning annnouncing who the first brigade SM of the Canadian Artillery brigade and sustainment brigades are going to be

It's important to announce that before the name of the Bde Comd comes out.

Ranging shots...

 

[markppcli]

You are mixing up VSHORAD with CUAS. VSHORAD includes both man portable and vehicle mounted systems such as the RBS 70 acquired by UOR for Latvia.

Folks should remember that prior to 2000, over 400 reservists were in the air defence branch in five batteries which were tasked to provide 5 Javelin missile troops for service in Europe. Missile based VSHORAD for the ARes is a proven capability. The concept of localizing the Atlantic region units integrating them with what will be the primary area for RegF units is one of the solid aspects of this program.

Similarly having the ARes arty units in MB, SK and NW ON aligned with 9 Rocket Regt in Shilo makes sense.

It's also, critically for the reserves, generally really cheap to train AD with sims.

 

[DBNSG]

You are mixing up VSHORAD with CUAS. VSHORAD includes both man portable and vehicle mounted systems such as the RBS 70 acquired by UOR for Latvia.

Folks should remember that prior to 2000, over 400 reservists were in the air defence branch in five batteries which were tasked to provide 5 Javelin missile troops for service in Europe. Missile based VSHORAD for the ARes is a proven capability. The concept of localizing the Atlantic region units integrating them with what will be the primary area for RegF units is one of the solid aspects of this program.

Similarly having the ARes arty units in MB, SK and NW ON aligned with 9 Rocket Regt in Shilo makes sense.

York Redoubt and the Citadel serve again.

 

[FJAG]

It's also, critically for the reserves, generally really cheap to train AD with sims.

If things are done right, it might also be possible for ARes units to train with the SPs. There will be guns allocated to the ARes but kept at RegF units for ease of maintenance. A good training simulator would work wonders. The real trick is going to be when the gun is finally chosen and the appropriate configuration for a CS battery/regiment and its doctrine and TTPs set. Arty organizations and tactics will undergo dramatic changes.

FOOs, FSCCs and loitering munitions are still an open question for me.

 

[ArmyRick]

If things are done right, it might also be possible for ARes units to train with the SPs. There will be guns allocated to the ARes but kept at RegF units for ease of maintenance. A good training simulator would work wonders. The real trick is going to be when the gun is finally chosen and the appropriate configuration for a CS battery/regiment and its doctrine and TTPs set. Arty organizations and tactics will undergo dramatic changes.

FOOs, FSCCs and loitering munitions are still an open question for me.

Sooo, whats your take on the future of our arty in terms of types of batteries?
Do you see SP batteries being the main field force sub units? What about all the CUAS and Loitering munitions? Does that fall under arty still?

How about the AD side? Would it make sense to have an AD for the field force and AD for the RCAF airfields?

 

[FJAG]

Sooo, whats your take on the future of our arty in terms of types of batteries?

It's not bad. The aim is that each of 1 RCHA, 2 RCHA and 5 RALC all become three 6-gun batteries - so 54 guns for the division. There are more guns on order for and the plan is that there will be guns designated for some of the ARes arty units (specifically the regiments in southern ON; AB; and near Quebec City) albeit the guns themselves with stay with the RegF regiments for maintenance etc.

1 RCHA is planned to be grown and take on rockets until large enough to split with 1 RCHA staying with SPs and creating a new 9th Rocket Regt, RCA in Shilo. The ARes regiments in Reginal, Brandon and the battery in Kenora will align on HIMARS wit 9 Rocket.

The ARes regiments in northern ON will allign with 2 RCHA as well but as FOOs and STA.

4 Regt (GS) will be renamed 4 AD Regt and will become VSHORAD NLT 2028 while a new AD SHORAD regiment (8 AD Regt) will stand up this year in Gagetown. 5 and 15 Fd Regt in Victoria and Vancouver, 1 Fd Regt Halifax and 84 Ind Bty (Yarmouth) will all be VSHORAD. 3 Fd Regt St John will be alligned with the RCAS in Gagetown. A new CAF joint integrated air and missile defence system (IAMD) is also under consideration in which the RCA will have a significant GBAD role.

For the time being 2 Fd Regt Montreal is unaligned and untasked.

Effectively, while ARes arty regiments remain in the CBGs for admin and non arty trg, there will be an ARes arty coord in 1 Div so essentially ARes arty is occupationally aligned with 1 CAB RCA for the Fd and STA folks and 6 CCSB for the AD folks.

It's a workable solution as there should be enough guns and equipment to go around for everyone (including SPs and HIMARS for reservists), but as I keep saying the devil is in the details and quite dependent on there being sufficient simulators to train at armories and enough of the right leadership to keep the focus. There should be tons of deployment opportunities for ARes in all roles.

Do you see SP batteries being the main field force sub units?

Absolutely

What about all the CUAS and Loitering munitions? Does that fall under arty still?

That's a weak point. There are both UAVs and loitering munitions (probably Switchblade) assigned to each field battery's tactical group. I expect a lot of experimentation needed to work out the TTPs.

There's another whole establishment that is in the very early planning stages which is a Target Acquisition Regt which, more likely will be an RCAF resource. It currently appears as having two RCAF SUAS squadrons, an RCAF long range loitering munition squadron, an artillery radar battery and a CSS company. It's all pretty vague right now.

Personally, I think the arty needs a much heavier LM capability than is planned.

How about the AD side? Would it make sense to have an AD for the field force and AD for the RCAF airfields?

Things are still a bit fluid, but between 4 and 8 AD there will be an Army Organic Air Defence (AOAD) capability to support army field forces for operational roles. It's far too early to see what the contemplated IAMD structure will be and how that fits with 4 AD and 8 AD but these issues are being actively pursued.

I'm not displeased with the direction this is taking. Do I think more could be done with the people we already have and the equipment being contemplated - yup. But I'll check firing on that for the time being.

 

[Kilted]

If things are done right, it might also be possible for ARes units to train with the SPs. There will be guns allocated to the ARes but kept at RegF units for ease of maintenance. A good training simulator would work wonders. The real trick is going to be when the gun is finally chosen and the appropriate configuration for a CS battery/regiment and its doctrine and TTPs set. Arty organizations and tactics will undergo dramatic changes.

FOOs, FSCCs and loitering munitions are still an open question for me.

Yeah, but we are looking at some pretty big geographic distances to travel to use them for some units.

 

[PrairieFella]

It's not bad. The aim is that each of 1 RCHA, 2 RCHA and 5 RALC all become three 6-gun batteries - so 54 guns for the division. There are more guns on order for and the plan is that there will be guns designated for some of the ARes arty units (specifically the regiments in southern ON; AB; and near Quebec City) albeit the guns themselves with stay with the RegF regiments for maintenance etc.

1 RCHA is planned to be grown and take on rockets until large enough to split with 1 RCHA staying with SPs and creating a new 9th Rocket Regt, RCA in Shilo. The ARes regiments in Reginal, Brandon and the battery in Kenora will align on HIMARS wit 9 Rocket.

The ARes regiments in northern ON will allign with 2 RCHA as well but as FOOs and STA.

4 Regt (GS) will be renamed 4 AD Regt and will become VSHORAD NLT 2028 while a new AD SHORAD regiment (8 AD Regt) will stand up this year in Gagetown. 5 and 15 Fd Regt in Victoria and Vancouver, 1 Fd Regt Halifax and 84 Ind Bty (Yarmouth) will all be VSHORAD. 3 Fd Regt St John will be alligned with the RCAS in Gagetown. A new CAF joint integrated air and missile defence system (IAMD) is also under consideration in which the RCA will have a significant GBAD role.

For the time being 2 Fd Regt Montreal is unaligned and untasked.

Effectively, while ARes arty regiments remain in the CBGs for admin and non arty trg, there will be an ARes arty coord in 1 Div so essentially ARes arty is occupationally aligned with 1 CAB RCA for the Fd and STA folks and 6 CCSB for the AD folks.

It's a workable solution as there should be enough guns and equipment to go around for everyone (including SPs and HIMARS for reservists), but as I keep saying the devil is in the details and quite dependent on there being sufficient simulators to train at armories and enough of the right leadership to keep the focus. There should be tons of deployment opportunities for ARes in all roles.

Absolutely

That's a weak point. There are both UAVs and loitering munitions (probably Switchblade) assigned to each field battery's tactical group. I expect a lot of experimentation needed to work out the TTPs.

There's another whole establishment that is in the very early planning stages which is a Target Acquisition Regt which, more likely will be an RCAF resource. It currently appears as having two RCAF SUAS squadrons, an RCAF long range loitering munition squadron, an artillery radar battery and a CSS company. It's all pretty vague right now.

Personally, I think the arty needs a much heavier LM capability than is planned.

Things are still a bit fluid, but between 4 and 8 AD there will be an Army Organic Air Defence (AOAD) capability to support army field forces for operational roles. It's far too early to see what the contemplated IAMD structure will be and how that fits with 4 AD and 8 AD but these issues are being actively pursued.

I'm not displeased with the direction this is taking. Do I think more could be done with the people we already have and the equipment being contemplated - yup. But I'll check firing on that for the time being.

Man, the Arty really seems to be putting some thought in their future structure. I wish I could say the same about the RCAC.

 

[Kilted]

Is 8th AD Regt going to take on the history of the 8 RCA, which is currently on the Supplementary Order of Battle?

 

[FJAG]

Is 8th AD Regt going to take on the history of the 8 RCA, which is currently on the Supplementary Order of Battle?

That's an interesting question. I'll follow up to see if anyone can give me a proper answer. Here's my shot at the math.

I was wondering where 9 Rocket came from as well. We had a 1st Rocket Battery at the end of WW2, and in the 1960s we had 1 and 2 Surface to Surface Missile (SSM) Batteries but never a Rocket Regiment. Interestingly, there was a 9th Field Brigade RCA in 1939 (in those days an artillery brigade was the equivalent of a regiment with, generally, three batteries.) It came from the Kingston and surrounding regions. There was, however, no 9th Field Artillery Regiment that I found a record or lineage for. Maybe that's why it was picked because there seemed to be a numerical gap there.

Again, at the end of WW2 and thereafter we had numerous light and medium anti-aircraft regiments including a 4th Light Anti-aircraft Regiment and an 8th Light Anti-aircraft Regiment. Both those ended up being stood down.

We did form a 4th Air Defence regiment in 1987. It's lineage is not traced to any prior unit but appears as a whole new unit. My guess, and only a guess is that since it was predominantly a RegF regiment and at the time there were a 1, 2 and 3 RCHA and 5 RALC and that 4 RCHA had been stood down in 1970, that folks simply chose 4 AD to fill in the blank and tacitly paid homage to 4 RCHA. In short, no idea where 8 AD comes from. It might be a gap filler as well as there are currently a RegF 1 and 2 RCHA, and 5 RALC (Also 4 Regt (GS) which came from 4 AD and will return to 4 AD), and ARes 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 10, 15, 20, 26, 30, 42, 49, 56, 62 Fd RCA - 8 Fd RCA used to be in Hamilton but was stood down. Anyway, it looks like 4 AD continues to fill a spot and 8 Ad and 9 Rocket would fill the next two blank ones.

Just guessing to the above. We might know better when the new units new batteries' designations are given. We give lettered batteries (A, B etc) to RCHA units and numbered (9th, 130th etc) to RCA and AD units regardless if they are RegF or ARes. Battery numbers might give a hint to prior unit lineage.

 

[markppcli]

Is 8th AD Regt going to take on the history of the 8 RCA, which is currently on the Supplementary Order of Battle?

Artillery lineage is more concerned with the battery than the regiment as a rule.

 

[MilEME09]

Artillery lineage is more concerned with the battery than the regiment as a rule.

Makes me keep my eyes on calgary as well, they are standing up a battery here. The sup orbat has 19th medium field arty regiment, I wonder if they will assume the history there.