Informing the Army’s Future Structure - CAMO Discussion

[dapaterson]

As long as we have two regular force infantry battalions named as light when they are in fact mechanized, we can forgive the guns for a similar sin.

 

[FJAG]

I believe it was Simmonds who decreed all the reg force artillery regiments be designated RCHA when he became CGS. I've always assumed that when 5 RALC was created the decision to not use RCHA was just the challenge of translating it (and maybe given the times not wanting to use "Royal").

I'm quite sure that you are right about Simonds. He'd served in both B and C Bty RCHA and was like that.

Same re 5 RALC. It avoids the "Royal" in RCHA and also where it is used in the French Canadian field artillery regiments e.g. 6e Régiment d’artillerie
de campagne, Artillerie royale canadienne (6 RAC, ARC)

 

[FJAG]

Interesting fact about the King's troop RHA.

For quite a few years now, nearly half of its roughly 150 personnel have been women including its COs..

The horse culture amongst British women is quite strong.

 

[ArmyRick]

As long as we have two regular force infantry battalions named as light when they are in fact mechanized, we can forgive the guns for a similar sin.

Names of regiments are just ceremony.

Yes the PPCLI is not LI (at least 1VP and 2 VP)

But what are the guards guarding?
Do the various rifle regiments carry only rifles?
How many scots are in the scottish and highland regiments?
Are the Foresters true Foresters? Well yes to some extent, many of us were.

 

[RangerRay]

Names of regiments are just ceremony.

Yes the PPCLI is not LI (at least 1VP and 2 VP)

But what are the guards guarding?
Do the various rifle regiments carry only rifles?
How many scots are in the scottish and highland regiments?
Are the Foresters true Foresters? Well yes to some extent, many of us were.

And the Rangers sure as shit didn’t go to the Ranger School!

 

[Kirkhill]

And the Rangers sure as shit didn’t go to the Ranger School!

There were Rangers long becore there was Ranger school.

Our Rangers are a lot closer to the original rangers than American Rangers or the Special Brits.

They were part time militiamen from the community that ranged across the land.

 

[FJAG]

Our Rangers are a lot closer to the original rangers than American Rangers or the Special Brits.

Ours now come from Toronto and amble around in TAPVs and G Wagons - so no.

Queen's York Rangers (1st American Regiment) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kirkhill]

Ours now come from Toronto and amble around in TAPVs and G Wagons - so no.

I forgot about Roger's Rejects. I was thinking about our northern ones.

 

[Kilted]

I forgot about Roger's Rejects. I was thinking about our northern ones.

To be fair, there is also the Rockey Mountain Rangers. There was also previously the Royal Irish Rangers (now part of the Royal Irish Regiment) in the British Army.

Edited to add: there is also the 50th Field Artillery Regiment (The Prince of Wales Rangers), Royal Canadian Artillery on the Supplementary Order of Battle. Formerly an Infantry Regiment.

 

[OldSolduer]

We should have formed a new Regiment:

The Prince’s Pirates. Guess what the regimental song is?

Oh the year was 1778…

 

[Kirkhill]

To be fair, there is also the Rockey Mountain Rangers. There was also previously the Royal Irish Rangers (now part of the Royal Irish Regiment) in the British Army.

Edited to add: there is also the 50th Field Artillery Regiment (The Prince of Wales Rangers), Royal Canadian Artillery on the Supplementary Order of Battle. Formerly an Infantry Regiment.

From Peterborough and still honoured on the Armoury signage.

 

[FJAG]

From Peterborough and still honoured on the Armoury signage.

Those were the days.

My first Southern Ontario summer concentration we had people from the 8th Field in Hamilton, the 50th Field in Peterborough and the 57th Field in Niagara/Welland along side the 7th Toronto from Toronto, the 11th Field from Guelph, and the 56th Field in Brandtford. A few years later the first three were gone to the Supp Order of Battle.

The 7th Toronto itself had just been formed as a new regiment in 1965 from three other units which were deactivated as a result of the Suttie Commission, 29th Field, 42 Medium and 1 Locating Regt. Also shut down by Suttie in Southern Ontario were 7th Field in Sarnia, 21 Field in Wingham, 33 Medium in Coburg, 44 Field in St Catharines, and 3 Ind Med Bty Gananoque.

Where there had been 13 regiments (and 1 battery) in southern Ontario, in 1964, only three remained in 1970. Tough times.

 

[MacNav63]

Interesting fact about the King's troop RHA.

For quite a few years now, nearly half of its roughly 150 personnel have been women including its COs..

The horse culture amongst British women is quite strong.

Including a female Canadian gunner a few years back: Brant County woman rides into military history

I've never really understood why so few men ride. Both my daughters rode competitively through their teenage years and it always seemed the vast majority of the riders at shows were female. So much so that I often wondered how there could be enough of a critical mass of male riders to generate the top talent like the Ian Millars of the world. Personally I love being around and riding horses.

 

[GR66]

Ours now come from Toronto (and Aurora) and amble around in TAPVs and G Wagons - so no.

And no, they don't go to Ranger School but at least at one time they were a Reserve Armoured Regiment with actual tanks...

 

[FJAG]

And no, they don't go to Ranger School but at least at one time they were a Reserve Armoured Regiment with actual tanks...
View attachment 100250

It's funny isn't it how at one time Militia units could maintain and operate tanks and self propelled guns.

 

[GR66]

It's funny isn't it how at one time Militia units could maintain and operate tanks and self propelled guns.

The thing is I get that the Sherman's were much easier to maintain that a Leopard 2A8 or an Abrams X so maybe while it was feasible to have them parked at the Aurora armoury then it's just not possible now. But look at the picture I posted. It was an exercise at Borden. There are several Reserve units of various types that are within reasonable driving distance to CF bases for weekend training and exercises. The complex equipment doesn't need to be kept and maintained at the local armouries. It can be kept in centralized locations and maintained by Reg Force personnel and used by Reserve Units...ideally in conjunction with their affiliated Reg Force units...on weekends and during exercises.

 

[MilEME09]

The thing is I get that the Sherman's were much easier to maintain that a Leopard 2A8 or an Abrams X so maybe while it was feasible to have them parked at the Aurora armoury then it's just not possible now. But look at the picture I posted. It was an exercise at Borden. There are several Reserve units of various types that are within reasonable driving distance to CF bases for weekend training and exercises. The complex equipment doesn't need to be kept and maintained at the local armouries. It can be kept in centralized locations and maintained by Reg Force personnel and used by Reserve Units...ideally in conjunction with their affiliated Reg Force units...on weekends and during exercises.

Centralized equipment has been something many of us have said to combat the "reserves cant maintain things" arguement. Now if CAMO comes true fully, reserve service battalions will handle all first line maint and have hundreds of techs plus every unit will have an admin coy with techs. However ill make arguments about that when I see it happen.

 

[FJAG]

The thing is I get that the Sherman's were much easier to maintain that a Leopard 2A8 or an Abrams X so maybe while it was feasible to have them parked at the Aurora armoury then it's just not possible now. But look at the picture I posted. It was an exercise at Borden. There are several Reserve units of various types that are within reasonable driving distance to CF bases for weekend training and exercises. The complex equipment doesn't need to be kept and maintained at the local armouries. It can be kept in centralized locations and maintained by Reg Force personnel and used by Reserve Units...ideally in conjunction with their affiliated Reg Force units...on weekends and during exercises.

In that case do not forget that Borden was the home of both the infantry and armoured schools and they were maintaining everything up to Centurion tanks there and firing them at Meaford which had its own tank hangers back then. That said, the Fort Gerry Horse also had tanks in those days in Winnipeg which it could maintain.

The vehicles, and weapons and comms and optical gear etc is certainly more complex. To me that means that you just need to train the right people in the right quantities to look after it and to have a logistics system robust enough to supply the parts when needed. The trouble is the army doesn't spend its money on either of those things so that even RegF units have crap VOR rates. The army thinks combat capabilities first and CSS and CS afterwards.

There is a recent quotation that I came across and find quite applicable to Canada's army and which I have adopted:

There is one thing worse for an army than not having a desired warfighting capability, and that is pretending that you have one.

 

[Blackadder1916]

It's funny isn't it how at one time Militia units could maintain and operate tanks and self propelled guns.

It's an easy mindset to maintain and operate equipment when you have it. The major hurdle is acquiring the kit. All those Militia units were equipped with WW2 surplus vehicles, having been issued them from the training stock that remained in Canada during the war and later having them replaced by the 300 294 Shermans (unused from lend lease stocks originally destined for Russia) that Canada bought from the US in 1946 for under $1500 each. Once they started to be beyond economical repair (which might be aggravated by a reduced maintenance schedule/capability) they were not replaced. What would a basic armoured vehicle cost today?

The M4A2(76)W Sherman

A group of six M4A2(76)W Sherman tanks training at Camp Petawawa in the 1950’s (DND Image) From its entry into service in 1943 until its final departure some four decades later, the Sherman w…

canadianarmsandarmour.ca

. . . At the end of the conflict, it was decided that the costs associated with the repair and shipping of the war weary tanks in Europe was cost prohibitive for the peacetime Canadian Army, so a purchase of 300 new Sherman M4A2(76)W tanks was made from the United States. The tanks were purchased from unfulfilled wartime Soviet orders and were equipped with twin General Motors diesel engines, Horizontal Volute Spring Suspension (HVSS) and a more potent 76mm main gun. It appears that the final number of tanks delivered to Canada differed slightly from the initial order, with 294 tanks being received at Long Point depot in late 1946.

Near directly upon receipt, the regular force units of the Canadian Armoured Corps and the Armoured Corps School began conversion training onto the new Sherman’s from the older M4A1 Grizzlies. By 1947 the new tanks could be found across Canada and by 1952, even the reserve force had converted to the type. During the Korean War, the Canadian Armoured Corps left their M4A2’s in Canada, using M4A3 Sherman’s in combat supplied from US Army stocks. Modifications in use are generally limited but In 1947, three tanks had their turrets removed and were fitted with flame throwers in place of the bow machines gun. These tanks were known as Sherman Badgers.

In 1952, the Canadian Army began to receive its new main battle tanks, the British Centurion. These modern tanks were immediately issued to the Canadian Brigade in Germany and the regular force armoured units in Canada. There was a period of cross-over where both Sherman’s and Centurions were used together in training, but by the mid 1950’s the Sherman were predominately used by reserve armoured units. Tanks in use by reserve armored units in this period often have their tracks changed from the steel T66 or T80 designs to the rubber T84. This was primarily due to the need for the reserve units, which had vehicles at their armouries, to parade or transport them on paved public roads. Cities and towns were not keen on having the army tear up their streets.

 

[ArmyRick]

t's funny isn't it how at one time Militia units could maintain and operate tanks and self propelled guns.

I am no RCEME guy but the tech back then was a lot simpler. Their was very little if any FCS in the AFVs. Certainly not much in the way of comms.

Modern AFVs and the comms/fire control is a hell of a lot more advanced and needs the proper techs to maintain them.

Hell, I am an M113 guy and I will come out and say even those could have been looked after by P Res units but you start looking at the current crop of AFVs, and you will need a much larger number of RCEME and Class B troops to keep them Op ready.