Informing the Army’s Future Structure - CAMO Discussion

[ytz]

budgets for this year were overestimated it seems and now everyone is getting told, actually no you have less

The whiplash is interesting. Went from and ADM literally telling people to "Spend it like you stole it," to "Can you guys slow down? We don't have money" in like 3 months. Lol.

Which budget I wonder? O&M I guess. Thats unfortunate.

Vote 1 and Vote 5.

That said, this isn't really impacting major procurement.

 

[KevinB]

DND's normal budget cycle relies on carrying forward underspending from the prior year to address non-baseline adjustments/requirements in the next year. So if the department didn't spend $100 in 25/26, that $100 will be pulled into 26/27 and used to cover new /emergent issues raised during the departmental planning process.

That’s a heck of a way to run a railroad.

(There are also some things that have never received baseline funding which are done year after years and funded by that source of funds).

Uhm, that sounds shady AF.

In 25/26, though, the department (from what I understand) successfully overspent its allocation, leaving $0 to carry forward.

Overspending, at least to me would me less than zero, so a negative balance going forward. Thus requiring more money allocated to cover the overage. Money for that needs to come from somewhere.

(Yay 2%+) This means that a lot of activities traditionally funded by that carry forward, and other new items, had no source of funding.

Well glass half full hopefully this is a lessons learned that the ‘unfunded slush fund methodology’ isn’t actually a generally accepted accounting principle.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The whiplash is interesting. Went from and ADM literally telling people to "Spend it like you stole it," to "Can you guys slow down? We don't have money" in like 3 months. Lol.

Vote 1 and Vote 5.

That said, this isn't really impacting major procurement.

Somewhere the math isn't mathing.

 

[captloadie]

I can use the RCAF as an example. Starting last year, we were told to get on board with activity based planning for our funding. This year, we took it a step further and were told to start at zero, and business plan based on the expected expenditures for the activities, rather than up to a notional allocation. Then at the L1, they can determine which activities will occur and receive full funding and which won't. I firmly believe this is a better way to do things, because then you don't half ass a lot of things that may or may not be important to your mandate.

On the project side, word came down recently that we are already bumping up against the 3.5% number CAF wide for the out years, and may need to start thinking about taking an appetite suppressant on some of the projects. Does this mean we shelve certain plans? Do we descope things? What we can no longer afford to do is commit PYs to projects and activities that have little chance of coming to fruition in the near future due to funding limitations, because we have so many projects/activities going forward that don't have adequate PYs assigned already.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I can use the RCAF as an example. Starting last year, we were told to get on board with activity based planning for our funding. This year, we took it a step further and were told to start at zero, and business plan based on the expected expenditures for the activities, rather than up to a notional allocation. Then at the L1, they can determine which activities will occur and receive full funding and which won't. I firmly believe this is a better way to do things, because then you don't half ass a lot of things that may or may not be important to your mandate.

On the project side, word came down recently that we are already bumping up against the 3.5% number CAF wide for the out years, and may need to start thinking about taking an appetite suppressant on some of the projects. Does this mean we shelve certain plans? Do we descope things? What we can no longer afford to do is commit PYs to projects and activities that have little chance of coming to fruition in the near future due to funding limitations, because we have so many projects/activities going forward that don't have adequate PYs assigned already.

What I did not enjoy was the zero based business planning being sprung on units late and with few explanations…

 

[dapaterson]

What I did not enjoy was the zero based business planning being sprung on units late and with few explanations…

I suspect that the move of business panning at the Departmental level from VCDS to ADM Fin is behind this.

ADM Fin is notorious for not realizing that other L1s are much larger and ore complex than their own minor satrapy, and bringing in last minute demands that are unreasonable and unrealizable within the deadlines they pull out of their various bodily orifices.

Thus resulting in demands that do not account for time at every level to review, analyze, and understand and feed the requested information back up.

But it looks good on a placemat, and that's really what matters.

 

[daftandbarmy]

What I did not enjoy was the zero based business planning being sprung on units late and with few explanations…

Which is largely impossible for most public sector entities anyways.

It sounds like someone up there attended a 2-day executive education session at York University

 

[RangerRay]

The whiplash is interesting. Went from and ADM literally telling people to "Spend it like you stole it," …

So they were laundering it into real estate and crypto?

 

[KevinB]

Which is largely impossible for most public sector entities anyways.

It really isn’t.
OFC it has to be a planned roll out or you end up SOL. You can’t pull the rug and say suck it up.

But units/commands/elements whatever shouldn’t be expecting a rollover of funds, unless it is a multi year program that is forecast and budgeted. I’d argue those aren’t at the operational side anyway.

This is one serious headache I have with the CAF method of program budgeting.

There has to be a rapid method for allocation of funds to deal with unforeseen operational expenditures. If the GoC says go do this and it wasn’t budgeted for - they need to provide the O&M monies to deal with the effects of that operation.
Or the rust out continues as Peter is robbed to pay Paul.


When OCO funding was cut down here, it slammed SOF units and Divisions and lower, as they had become accustomed to GWOT level funding boosts for deployments and spending money with no adult supervision.

It needed to get done, as a lot of equipment was being pissed away for the next shiner toy with little integration and no logistics support.
But it left a lot of folks screwed as they hadn’t planned to exist without it.

 

[dapaterson]

DND lacks internal understanding of their own business, making it challenging at best to be responsive to government. Being able to articulate problems needs a program understanding that most operators do not have (nor should they - that's not why / how they're trained and focused).

 

[KevinB]

DND lacks internal understanding of their own business, making it challenging at best to be responsive to government. Being able to articulate problems needs a program understanding that most operators do not have (nor should they - that's not why / how they're trained and focused).

At a certain level some positions need to be streamed into acquisitions and contracts.
Maj/LCol Bloggins and WO/MWO DooRight are not advancing in their primary trade / but they can be useful staff members given proper training.
Happens down here - it saves them from a 3rd pass in up or out as they are in a new specialty, and they can put 6-10 more years in of valuable service.

I worked for a Col who ended up in JSOC as an acquisition guy. Useless field soldier and zero leadership skills whatsoever, proof that being able to read a map wasn’t a requirement from Ranger school- but he knew money and how to work it. He managed a lot of programs and did a lot of good in his last 6 years in uniform.

 

[dapaterson]

The long time uniformed personnel doing that with the CAF are often the class B lifers. On the Army side, many seem to be folks who'd never survive the Reg F and lack professional and or social skills for outside employment.

They're also incentivized to play games rather than take an enterprise view, or a long term view.

And with leaders on a two or sometimes three year cycle, there's little incentive to improve.

 

[KevinB]

The long time uniformed personnel doing that with the CAF are often the class B lifers. On the Army side, many seem to be folks who'd never survive the Reg F and lack professional and or social skills for outside employment.

I am vehemently opposed to the permanent Class B / C positions. I see this as abuse of the CAF PY caps.
If a full time position is justified to exist, it should be filled by a Reg Force member. With the resultant checks and balances (even if some of those are theoretical).

They're also incentivized to play games rather than take an enterprise view, or a long term view.

That should be enough justification to toss them out on their ass.
Some long term positions probably don’t need a uniform, and should be shunted to a PS/DND civilian role.

And with leaders on a two or sometimes three year cycle, there's little incentive to improve.

One reason a lot of the Deputy PM positions down here as well as other static roles are civilian employee. Often former Military (which can have its own baggage if the uniform positions don’t take an active role) but they provide continuity when the uniforms rotate out.


While Canada is a relatively small Military - it is missing some key trades (or secondary specialties) that could solve a lot of the issues that exist.

There are some incredible bright lights, but they often get waylaid doing multiple jobs to try to keep the ship afloat.
Or they get assassinated career wise by those who don’t want to look bad in comparison.

 

[McG]

I worked for a Col who ended up in JSOC as an acquisition guy. Useless field soldier and zero leadership skills whatsoever, proof that being able to read a map wasn’t a requirement from Ranger school- but he knew money and how to work it. He managed a lot of programs and did a lot of good in his last 6 years in uniform.

Is this stuff that is really best done by uniforms? It seems like work that could be well handled by a civilian project manager, which would free a PY for a job on a base.

The long time uniformed personnel doing that with the CAF are often the class B lifers.

The solution to most of the problems you describe here is to end Class B is a career path. Someone wants to be full time then they join the Reg F ... there there can be a B-stream for Reg F on perpetual 3 year TOS with protection from geographic moves, but they are career managed, getting merited against other Reg F, and filling positions within a geographic area according to CAF priorities (no more low priority jobs poaching from high priority positions).

 

[PrairieFella]

Is this stuff that is really best done by uniforms? It seems like work that could be well handled by a civilian project manager, which would free a PY for a job on a base.


The solution to most of the problems you describe here is to end Class B is a career path. Someone wants to be full time then they join the Reg F ... there there can be a B-stream for Reg F on perpetual 3 year TOS with protection from geographic moves, but they are career managed, getting merited against other Reg F, and filling positions within a geographic area according to CAF priorities (no more low priority jobs poaching from high priority positions).

If a geolocked reg class of service existed Id jump in in a heartbeat. But I've got a farm to help run and I really like my life situation.

 

[dapaterson]

Too much of CAF leadership does not understand the legal and regulatory structure of th CAF, nor the levers possible to adjust it. Building a Reg F with subcomponents would blow their minds.

 

[McG]

If a geolocked reg class of service existed Id jump in in a heartbeat. But I've got a farm to help run and I really like my life situation.

That's generally what I hear from the career Class B types, and it is a solution that we could implement within the NDA as it exists today. It would also substantially reduce the competition for Reserve Pay funds, because they would no longer be a mechanism to circumvent government set PY caps.