Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[daftandbarmy]

And working from the macro to the micro

Following the all arms construct, then each section will have its own Fire Controller and its Communicator. Much like the USMCs new Expeditionary Squads of 16.

Squads that are dispersed ISR packages that can concentrate fires from all launchers in range.

In fact you could call a new Littoral Battalion an ISR Battalion.

As they have removed all the USMC integral heavy fire support, unless everyone else is doing their job, you will probably call them 'the victims.'

 

[Blackadder1916]

I have absolutely no idea why a Svc bn needs an admin company at all. But then again I'm not knowledgeable enough to argue the case one way or the other - I'm just left wondering why a full sized armoured BCT can get by with 343 people fulfilling all functions of the brigade's 2nd line support as well as its own 1st line without the need of its own admin coy. It should be sufficient to just have a small HQ and two companies - one S&T and one maintenance.

I'm a great fan of CSS but our structure leaves me wondering as to its efficiencies.

If you didn't have an Admin Coy then there would be one less slot (per bn) for a Log Branch Major to check the box of sub-unit command of a field force unit. (And you should have seen the ragpicker heads explode when a Medical Officer was given the position "temporarily/acting" in 4 Svc Bn back a few decades ago and later double-hatted as OC NSE in Yugo because she was the most competent/qualified officer for the job.)

Okay, I'm being a bit sarcastic but there is an element of truth to it. It's just like the proliferation of GOFOs in HQs both Canadian and OUTCAN (especially in US formations) - they need a certain rank level to do the job, but often the job is created so that they can gain experience to justify advancement.

The question (or a similar question) was asked of me a few decades ago when I was a student on the OAC at Ft Sam Houston. While giving a presentation about the structure of our field forces (unfortunately most of my "official" references were still fresh Corps 86 wet dreams) one of my classmates did bring up the differences in pers numbers and rank levels for bde/div organizations between our respective armies. My typical response was "well, you're Walmart, we're a boutique shop, we just provide a different level of service". Getting past the obvious of "it's always been done that way" and "all battalion level organizations are similarly structured", there is an element of "different level of service". Some of it is a more intimate connection but often it was a necessary requirement for Canadian organizations to have a built in redundancy with 2nd line CSS because there were little to no permanent 3rd line organizations.

 

[Kirkhill]

As they have removed all the USMC integral heavy fire support, unless everyone else is doing their job, you will probably call them 'the victims.'

Their artillery is afloat. Not on wheels or tracks.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Their artillery is afloat. Not on wheels or tracks.

And there's the rub.

 

[FJAG]

... Some of it is a more intimate connection but often it was a necessary requirement for Canadian organizations to have a built in redundancy with 2nd line CSS because there were little to no permanent 3rd line organizations.

I tend to view this as the key difference as between the US structures and ours. Firstly we don't have the numerous 2nd and 3rd line enablers that a US BCT can have provided to it. That lets them strip a BCT down to the essential organic elements needed to function rather than stuff them into the BCT itself. Secondly, not having those external enablers then whenever we see a shortcoming in the bde structure we seem to plug it in there - whether another staff officer or CC cell or vehicle; what have you.

An added factor perhaps is that considering we have only three brigades, adding a components to it is a fairly minor affair. Considering the size of US forces, every time you add an asset to one brigade, whether a person or a truck, you have to multiply it by 45 for BCTs and 83 for support bdes. I always found comparable US units and formations leaner than ours when it came to the "luxury" add-ons albeit better equipped when it came to the necessities. Having only two majors, eight captains, four lieutenants and twelve 2nd lieutenants on the establishment of an infantry battalion rather than seven majors, seventeen captains, five capt/lts and 9 lieutenant/2nd lts is one example of that (all number subject to variation).

 

[MJP]

I have absolutely no idea why a Svc bn needs an admin company at all. But then again I'm not knowledgeable enough to argue the case one way or the other - I'm just left wondering why a full sized armoured BCT can get by with 343 people fulfilling all functions of the brigade's 2nd line support as well as its own 1st line without the need of its own admin coy. It should be sufficient to just have a small HQ and two companies - one S&T and one maintenance.

I'm a great fan of CSS but our structure leaves me wondering as to its efficiencies.

The Americans can get away with it because they have a much deeper higher level support base and actual base supports are in most cases hived and not dependent on personnel in actual support units. Whereas in Canada all 3 Svc Bns are both tasked with General and Close support tasks meaning many of the folks in those battalions are double hatted or are robbed from one area to support another during the year. We largely have no idea how Divisional and Corps sustainment works because in Canada we haven't seen it since WWII/Korea. I got to watch a divisional support in play in Alaska and it was amazing to see them support three Bdes (1 OPFOR/2BLUFOR) with almost no requirement (except in some very small areas) for additional resources

As for why does the Svc Bn have its own Admin Coy it is because the Svc Bn Maint & S&T Coy's task lines and holdings are Bde assets and are controlled IAW Bde priorities. Those priorities don't always line up with Svc Bn needs nor should Svc Bn be dipping into Bde task lines/resources to support itself. Admin Coy takes care of the Svc Bn so the other Coys can focus on taking care of the Bde

 

[KevinB]

As for why does the Svc Bn have its own Admin Coy it is because the Svc Bn Maint & S&T Coy's task lines and holdings are Bde assets and are controlled IAW Bde priorities. Those priorities don't always line up with Svc Bn needs nor should Svc Bn be dipping into Bde task lines/resources to support itself. Admin Coy takes care of the Svc Bn so the other Coys can focus on taking care of the Bde

<ike,

I don't think we where quibbling about the Svc Bn - it was more of a if there are more Svc Bn in a Bde - should they have their own sub command - or at the Div level - should there be a Svc Bde (and its own HQ)

My concern about the Svc Bde is some joker will then try to fill it from the Svc Bn's - as opposed to making them more robust - and creating more units.

I have decided that if I was King (okay I am a US Citizen now - so maybe Grande Galactic Emperor sounds better) - that everyone would join for a 2 year BE - as a 031, -- EVERYONE --
After the 2 years, those who want to become and officer can attempt to compete for a Military University - or for those who already have a degree can apply for OCS.
The rest can either stay in the Infantry toward and NCO stream - or take another 2 BE into another trade.

That way everyone who joins another trade at least has some idea how it can suck if you don't have the correct support...

 

[MJP]

<ike,

I don't think we where quibbling about the Svc Bn - it was more of a if there are more Svc Bn in a Bde - should they have their own sub command - or at the Div level - should there be a Svc Bde (and its own HQ)

Tracking and not getting involved in that aspect mostly because it is an empty pipe dream IMHO, more just addressing the minor quibbles on the edges regarding Admin coys.

 

[KevinB]

Tracking and not getting involved in that aspect mostly because it is an empty pipe dream IMHO, more just addressing the minor quibbles on the edges regarding Admin coys.

Well actually in True Canadian Fashion - they may stand up a SVC DIV - the HQ for it will require all the folks in the SVC BN;s current and thus leave the CA with no actual Svc Bn's or support personnel outside of a HQ at any level

 

[Kirkhill]

Sorry for jumping in again with some tangential context.




Playing with what CANADA means.


And where the Canadian Army fits in to the discussion.


WRT the discussion - My inclination is to have the Canadian Army focus exclusively on the immediate operational priorities as they apply to the three regular brigades and their support and how the will co-operate with CANSOFCOM, the RCN, the RCAF and the other less well known operational elements of DND.

Domestically there needs to be a continuing effort to join the operations of the RCMP, the Coast Guard, the SAR community, the Rangers, the Territorial Brigades, the Militia units located within the provinces and the Provincial Sheriffs and Constabularies. That is a separate discussion and requires a separate focus.

The third discussion is the active defence of Canada and national mobilization. That discusssion, I suggest, should be predicated on the RCAF and the RCA with involvement of the RCN. Those are the elements that have the bandwidth to manage the technicalities of defending against aerial bombardment - whether by means of Fractional Orbital Bombardment, ICBMS, stealth missiles launched from container ships or swarms or drones deployed by Hells Angels.

The Territorial Brigades, the Militia, the Areas, the Rangers and the Joint Task Forces will, of course, find gainful employment under those circumstances.


I am not sure that devising a National Defence plan predicated on recreating the Canadian Expeditionary Force for service in either Latvia or Taiwan is necessarily the best use of resources.


PS - the BCAD figures represent the Provincial and Territorial GDPs. Canada is assumed not to have a GDP beyond the sum total of all of its elements. On the other hand Canada does have a Budget.

 

[KevinB]

Sorry for jumping in again with some tangential context.



Playing with what CANADA means.


And where the Canadian Army fits in to the discussion.


WRT the discussion - My inclination is to have the Canadian Army focus exclusively on the immediate operational priorities as they apply to the three regular brigades and their support and how the will co-operate with CANSOFCOM, the RCN, the RCAF and the other less well known operational elements of DND.

So you are ignoring the Reserves as part of the CF construct?

Domestically there needs to be a continuing effort to join the operations of the RCMP, the Coast Guard, the SAR community, the Rangers, the Territorial Brigades, the Militia units located within the provinces and the Provincial Sheriffs and Constabularies. That is a separate discussion and requires a separate focus.

As well given as Canada doesn't have any regulations forbidding it - the Regular Force is also available - often better equipped and definitely more easily mobilized for that.

The third discussion is the active defence of Canada and national mobilization. That discusssion, I suggest, should be predicated on the RCAF and the RCA with involvement of the RCN. Those are the elements that have the bandwidth to manage the technicalities of defending against aerial bombardment - whether by means of Fractional Orbital Bombardment, ICBMS, stealth missiles launched from container ships or swarms or drones deployed by Hells Angels.

Both the RCAF, and RCN require long lead time items - and current the RCA has no real skin in the game for that either.
If you are mobilizing these days - it's not like WWI or WW2 where certain industries can shift and churn items out.
All you can really mobilize is poorly equipped Light Infantry

The Territorial Brigades, the Militia, the Areas, the Rangers and the Joint Task Forces will, of course, find gainful employment under those circumstances.


I am not sure that devising a National Defence plan predicated on recreating the Canadian Expeditionary Force for service in either Latvia or Taiwan is necessarily the best use of resources.


PS - the BCAD figures represent the Provincial and Territorial GDPs. Canada is assumed not to have a GDP beyond the sum total of all of its elements. On the other hand Canada does have a Budget.

Given the mandate to the CF by the Canadian Government - it needs to be prepared for a large amount of different contingencies.
Since Canada is still willing to accept being thrust into a NATO "heavy" requirement - the CF needs to prepare (and equip) a Bde for that.

 

[Kirkhill]

Yes. I am ignoring the Reserves as part of the CAF construct.

Given what they can add in real life I have come to see them as a real life, and needless, complication to sorting out the CAF. The Army in particular, and the CAF in general seem to have enough on their plate getting the people they have sorted out and marching in the one direction.

Once 1 Division/CJOCC gets itself organized, and figures out how to work with the RCAF and the RCN.... and CANSOFCOM then it will be time enough to figure out how the Calgary Highlanders can contribute. In the meantime there is nothing preventing individual Calgary Highlanders from applying for Class B and C service with the 1 Division units.

As to the light, medium, heavy mandate - I recuse myself completely from the discussion.

The discussion has become less about needs, perceived or real and is tending towards wants. I have no further ability to offer comment, fair or otherwise. So, better to leave it up to the professionals and wait for them to tell me what they are capable of doing.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Once 1 Division/CJOCC gets itself organized, and figures out how to work with the RCAF and the RCN.... and CANSOFCOM then it will be time enough to figure out how the Calgary Highlanders can contribute. In the meantime there is nothing preventing individual Calgary Highlanders from applying for Class B and C service with the 1 Division units.

FWIW, as I recall, this is impossible in most cases as the vacancies are very few and far between.

Unless there's a war on and you really, really need some fit, keen, teenage cannon fodder to fill up the LAVs etc because half the (aging, decrepit) Regular Army is non-deployable due to various ailments (real or imagined) of course

 

[Brad Sallows]

Bde with a: HQ, Pointy Stick Bn's, Reg't etc and a Support/Service Bn (and hopefully a few other those)

I guess it follows that the Div will have:
DIV HQ, Pointy Stick Bde's, a Support Bde

If we had a division, many of the assets customarily held by brigades expected to operate independently would instead belong to the division. The CAF isn't going to jump from doing managed readiness for battalion groups to managed readiness for independent brigades, let alone divisions, so "support bde" is, like all the divisional HQs, something between a purely administrative entity (we used to call them districts) and a fanciful wish.

 

[KevinB]

If we had a division, many of the assets customarily held by brigades expected to operate independently would instead belong to the division. The CAF isn't going to jump from doing managed readiness for battalion groups to managed readiness for independent brigades, let alone divisions, so "support bde" is, like all the divisional HQs, something between a purely administrative entity (we used to call them districts) and a fanciful wish.

My concern too...

IF the CA was organized in a practical manner - it could very easily do Readiness in Bde cycles.
However my biggest heart burn from all of this is the fact I believe that all Regular units should be ready at all times.
Only certain theatre specific issues should need to be addressed for deployments.

 

[Kirkhill]

FWIW, as I recall, this is impossible in most cases as the vacancies are very few and far between.

Unless there's a war on and you really, really need some fit, keen, teenage cannon fodder to fill up the LAVs etc because half the (aging, decrepit) Regular Army is non-deployable due to various ailments (real or imagined) of course

In the words of my English teacher and rugby coach, "Rock" Quarrie, on the occasion of my graduation: "Hang by your thumbs and write if you get work!"

 

[ueo]

In the words of my English teacher and rugby coach, "Rock" Quarrie, on the occasion of my graduation: "Hang by your thumbs and write if you get work!"

Imho all the above is rendered moot. We cannot attract, process and train sufficient new mbrs to fill the slots we have. Fix the recruiting and attraction system (12 months to process a pres infm is not acceptable!), design and implement a realistic training std and spend about 5 years rebuilding what exists ( maybe reconsider the more balanced force of the 80's?). Then, maybe, we could consider redesign/reengineering. We also have the myriad of other probs to deal with as well.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I have decided that if I was King (okay I am a US Citizen now - so maybe Grande Galactic Emperor sounds better) - that everyone would join for a 2 year BE - as a 031, -- EVERYONE --
After the 2 years, those who want to become and officer can attempt to compete for a Military University - or for those who already have a degree can apply for OCS.
The rest can either stay in the Infantry toward and NCO stream - or take another 2 BE into another trade.

That way everyone who joins another trade at least has some idea how it can suck if you don't have the correct support...

Thats the most CAF thing I have ever seen written. If its not Army and its not 031 its stupid, basically. And really just goes to show my bassline opinion of the Army is true in that its all just a penis size contest to see who can be as infantry hard as possible with out being infantry.

031 is over rated. Just a cog in the wheel like the rest.

(And you should have seen the ragpicker heads explode when a Medical Officer was given the position "temporarily/acting" in 4 Svc Bn back a few decades ago and later double-hatted as OC NSE in Yugo because she was the most competent/qualified officer for the job.)

Why cant the Log branch be protective of its billets ? Everyone else is.

 

[Kirkhill]

Yes. I am ignoring the Reserves as part of the CAF construct.

Given what they can add in real life I have come to see them as a real life, and needless, complication to sorting out the CAF. The Army in particular, and the CAF in general seem to have enough on their plate getting the people they have sorted out and marching in the one direction.

Once 1 Division/CJOCC gets itself organized, and figures out how to work with the RCAF and the RCN.... and CANSOFCOM then it will be time enough to figure out how the Calgary Highlanders can contribute. In the meantime there is nothing preventing individual Calgary Highlanders from applying for Class B and C service with the 1 Division units.

As to the light, medium, heavy mandate - I recuse myself completely from the discussion.

The discussion has become less about needs, perceived or real and is tending towards wants. I have no further ability to offer comment, fair or otherwise. So, better to leave it up to the professionals and wait for them to tell me what they are capable of doing.

Final Comment

Attach 1 Division to CANSOFCOM in perpetuity. If they would have it.

CANSOFCOM seems particularly well versed in managing Ottawa and turning out a useful product.

 

[KevinB]

Thats the most CAF thing I have ever seen written. If its not Army and its not 031 its stupid, basically. And really just goes to show my bassline opinion of the Army is true in that its all just a penis size contest to see who can be as infantry hard as possible with out being infantry.

031 is over rated. Just a cog in the wheel like the rest.



Why cant the Log branch be protective of its billets ? Everyone else is.

Not my intent at all - the point was the 031 is physically hard - and churn should be encouraged to other trades.
It gives everyone a base understand of ground combat at the rudimentary level - which can be used later, when when Cpl Bloggins is on a supply run and the convoy is ambushed - he at least has a background to know fire and maneuver.

You will see more and more Asymetrical battlefields with the dispersed Multi-domain operation concepts current being conducted by the Allies.


It also ensures that everyone starts off on a level playing field.