Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[Kirkhill]

There are very few systems that wholly eliminate people from handling the ammunition into the breech. I'd rather have people involved than more moving parts.

As IKN says 3 crew in the cab, nobody on the gun and 2 ammo handlers on the PLS with the container of Ammo and Charges.

There is nobody in the RWS that holds the cannon, nobody at the breech.

10 men on a single M777 or 10 men on 2x Archers with 2x ISOs of ammo on 2x PLS Trucks. - With mechanically assisted ammunition handling.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Handy, if you know exactly what will be needed for the next 21 rounds outgoing.

 

[KevinB]

As IKN says 3 crew in the cab, nobody on the gun and 2 ammo handlers on the PLS with the container of Ammo and Charges.

There is nobody in the RWS that holds the cannon, nobody at the breech.

10 men on a single M777 or 10 men on 2x Archers with 2x ISOs of ammo on 2x PLS Trucks. - With mechanically assisted ammunition handling.

Which works great until it doesn't work.

It does look promising for a medium weight force - but one will need to understand that it will add a logistics burden, as it is based on a Volvo construction truck

https://www.volvoce.com/-/media/volvoce/global/global-site/product-archive/documents/09-articulated-haulers/05-volvo/v-a30d-d10/v-a30d-d10-2216694153-2003-01.pdf?v=SPg5Pw

So another vehicle to the fleet - not insurmountable - but it would have been a little nicer it was based on something already in inventory.

 

[Kirkhill]

Which works great until it doesn't work.

It does look promising for a medium weight force - but one will need to understand that it will add a logistics burden, as it is based on a Volvo construction truck

https://www.volvoce.com/-/media/volvoce/global/global-site/product-archive/documents/09-articulated-haulers/05-volvo/v-a30d-d10/v-a30d-d10-2216694153-2003-01.pdf?v=SPg5Pw

So another vehicle to the fleet - not insurmountable - but it would have been a little nicer it was based on something already in inventory.

Same system different truck



Bofors cannon in a Kongsberg(?) RWS on a Man truck engineered by BAE.
What truck do you want it on?
And how is the logistics burden anymore than that of an M109A6.
The cannon is an L52 155.

DSEI 2019: BAE Systems new ARCHER 155mm self-propelled howitzer based on 8x8 MAN truck chassis | DSEI 2019 News Official Show Daily Land Zone | Defence security military exhibition 2019 daily news category

BAE Systems unveils new version of its ARCHER 155mm mobile self-propelled howitzer based on a Rheinmetall MAN Military 8x8 truck chassis at DSEI 2019 London UK

www.armyrecognition.com

Now you have a highway legal system good for 90 km/h accompanied by an identical Man with a PLS and a Sea Can for the Ammo.

Still 2x 155s with the Archers, vs 1x 155 with the M777. And 2x L52s instead of 2x L39 so longer range. And faster firing and Multi Round Simultaneous Impact.

Yes, suitable for Medium Force but even a light force might be willing to use two or three C17 sorties to add a pair of them to the expedtion.

The long-range, self-propelled ARCHER brings speed, mobility, and high rates of fire to support ground troops. From the safety of ARCHER’s armored cabin, a three-person crew needs less than 30 seconds to deploy or displace the system, making ARCHER the ultimate shoot-and-scoot artillery system. As the most advanced wheeled 155mm, 52-calibre system in operation today, ARCHER features a 21-round auto-loader and onboard ballistic calculation. The system can fire up to eight rounds per minute at ranges approaching 40 kilometers with conventional 155 mm ammunition and 60 kilometers with precision-guided munitions such as Excalibur.

 

[Kirkhill]

@KevinB

Further to...

BAE Systems’ 155mm ARCHER successfully completes U.S. Army’s shoot-off evaluation October 2021.

BAE Systems’ 155mm ARCHER successfully completes U.S. Army’s shoot-off evaluation

BAE Systems’ 155mm ARCHER wheeled howitzer system successfully completed testing during the U.S. Army’s “shoot off” evaluation, as the service evaluates whether to add a wheeled capability to its arsenal. ARCHER is a fully automated mobile weapon system that provides highly responsive and...

www.baesystems.com

Too bad we don't know anybody connected with the US Army and its weaponry. It would be nice to know how well it was perceived.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Now we're talking...

United States Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland told the Ukrainian media outlet European Pravda in an interview on Friday that the US has begun supplying Ukraine with multiple launch rocket systems (MLRS).

"We are now working with other NATO allies so that Ukraine will receive more jet systems," stated Nuland adding that the US is trying "to adjust the weapons we send to the needs of the Armed Forces of Ukraine" in accordance with how the conflict is evolving.

Previously, US President Joe Biden confirmed that his administration has authorized additional military support for Ukraine worth $800 million, including heavy artillery, howitzers, drones, and ammunition.

US supplying Ukraine with multiple launch rocket systems

United States Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Victoria Nuland told the Ukrainian media outlet European Pravda in an interview on Friday that the US has begun supplying Ukraine with mult...

www.teletrader.com

 

[KevinB]

@KevinB

Further to...

BAE Systems’ 155mm ARCHER successfully completes U.S. Army’s shoot-off evaluation October 2021.

BAE Systems’ 155mm ARCHER successfully completes U.S. Army’s shoot-off evaluation

BAE Systems’ 155mm ARCHER wheeled howitzer system successfully completed testing during the U.S. Army’s “shoot off” evaluation, as the service evaluates whether to add a wheeled capability to its arsenal. ARCHER is a fully automated mobile weapon system that provides highly responsive and...

www.baesystems.com

Too bad we don't know anybody connected with the US Army and its weaponry. It would be nice to know how well it was perceived.

I only hang out with SOF and small arms/small team weapons folks.
I would assume for here it would be the Oshkosh version of the Man.

For Light Force I’d want a jumpable gun that is easily air mobile from a Hook.
Fairly easy upgrade to put the 52cal barrel on a M777


Frankly having worked briefly in W Bty 109’s, I’m more comfortable with the M109 for a SPA/SPG role simply due to the manned turret. I’m always worried about technology…

 

[daftandbarmy]

I only hang out with SOF and small arms/small team weapons folks.
I would assume for here it would be the Oshkosh version of the Man.

For Light Force I’d want a jumpable gun that is easily air mobile from a Hook.
Fairly easy upgrade to put the 52cal barrel on a M777


Frankly having worked briefly in W Bty 109’s, I’m more comfortable with the M109 for a SPA/SPG role simply due to the manned turret. I’m always worried about technology…

We had artry on call from P Hr + 30 minutes with the 105mm light gun. A wonderful bit of kit for a 'light' organization:

 

[suffolkowner]

Handy, if you know exactly what will be needed for the next 21 rounds outgoing.

I've read that it can select the round but can't change once loaded but others have said it must fire the rounds as loaded?

Would look good on the Kerax

 

[Weinie]

You don't have enough Leo's, and your lacking an ATGM on your IFV - so your only tank killing item is the tank.

Sticky bombs. They worked in Saving Private Ryan.

sticky bombs saving private ryan - Bing video


Just sayin.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Sticky bombs. They worked in Saving Private Ryan.

sticky bombs saving private ryan - Bing video


Just sayin.

Or off route mines:

 

[IKnowNothing]

You don't have enough Leo's, and your lacking an ATGM on your IFV - so your only tank killing item is the tank.

It doesn't you just want it to.

Adopt US 14x Coy for the tank squadron. Don't have an IFV, uparmoured Stryker with a handy chain gun. Fight them as such. Add Javelins in all right spots for 2 SBCT Cavalry troops (LRSS mounted) and a Stryker battalion. Use the two now surplus Btn sets of LAV's to convert enough for 10 1129's per LAV battalion and 4 per Armoured regiment, 3 1134's per LAV battalion. Upgunned and uparmoured Battalion and Cavalry Squadron from an SBCT.

Filling out a brigade with allied troops is a stretch, but is that non an upgrade on the battlegroup side of things?

Donate TAPV to Ukraine, or given them to the Service BN and MP's to use for convoy escort.
Anyone trying to sell it as a Light CAV system really needs their heads examined.

Yeah light CAV was a poor choice of words. Weapons carriers for crew served weapons that can either be attached to a larger force or used as road mobile skirmishers. And as I said, TAPV wouldn't be my choice. But given Canada's location relative to any fight it's going to be in, an easily deployable light but mobile force equipped to bring a disproportionate amount of effect (ATGM's/UAVs/SHORAD) seems more attainable than doing heavy well, and more effective than paying lipservice to going heavy, so start moving that way now, optimize later.


Heavy well- not happening any time soon
Medium well- fill gaps for 2x SBCT with Leo's and chain guns, one light Bde equipped as needed (obvious solution, boring to talk about)

 

[WestIsle]

Adopt US 14x Coy for the tank squadron. Don't have an IFV, uparmoured Stryker with a handy chain gun. Fight them as such. Add Javelins in all right spots for 2 SBCT Cavalry troops (LRSS mounted) and a Stryker battalion. Use the two now surplus Btn sets of LAV's to convert enough for 10 1129's per LAV battalion and 4 per Armoured regiment, 3 1134's per LAV battalion. Upgunned and uparmoured Battalion and Cavalry Squadron from an SBCT.

Filling out a brigade with allied troops is a stretch, but is that non an upgrade on the battlegroup side of things?


Yeah light CAV was a poor choice of words. Weapons carriers for crew served weapons that can either be attached to a larger force or used as road mobile skirmishers. And as I said, TAPV wouldn't be my choice. But given Canada's location relative to any fight it's going to be in, an easily deployable light but mobile force equipped to bring a disproportionate amount of effect (ATGM's/UAVs/SHORAD) seems more attainable than doing heavy well, and more effective than paying lipservice to going heavy, so start moving that way now, optimize later.


Heavy well- not happening any time soon
Medium well- fill gaps for 2x SBCT with Leo's and chain guns, one light Bde equipped as needed (obvious solution, boring to talk about)

We need a IFV however. As much as people on here like to dream up the latest death dealing brigade construct NATO has indicated what is needed for a Med or Heavy brigade. Heavy Brigades have 3 IFV battalions and Medium have 1 as well as 3 APC battalions. Canada has been told that we need a division construct with 1 Heavy and 3 Medium Brigades. CA knows that the LAVs wont pass muster for IFVs

 

[GR66]

We need a IFV however. As much as people on here like to dream up the latest death dealing brigade construct NATO has indicated what is needed for a Med or Heavy brigade. Heavy Brigades have 3 IFV battalions and Medium have 1 as well as 3 APC battalions. Canada has been told that we need a division construct with 1 Heavy and 3 Medium Brigades. CA knows that the LAVs wont pass muster for IFVs

Reference?

 

[Brad Sallows]

the LAVs wont pass muster for IFVs

Why not? Armoured, carries infantry, can provide DFS.

 

[Infanteer]

LAV is, by definition, and IFV.

 

[GR66]

You don't have enough Leo's, and your lacking an ATGM on your IFV - so your only tank killing item is the tank.

Well...if we are able to get that super amazing fire sale deal on free (or nearly free) Abrams that I'm told is available, then we could do something like this:

4 x LAV Infantry Battalions
1 PPCLI (Edmonton)
2 PPCLI (Shilo)
1 R22eR (Valcartier)
2 R22eR (Quebec)

3 x Light Infantry Battalions
1 RCR (Petwawa)
2 RCR (Gagetown)
3 RCR (Petwawa)

2 x Tank Regiments
LdSH (Edmonton)
RCD (move to Edmonton in place of 3 PPCLI)

1 x Armoured Recce Regiment
12 RBC (Valcartier)

Plus the existing 3 x Artillery, Combat Engineer and Service units.

Gives you the ability to field 2 x Heavy Brigades each with 3 x maneuver units (1 x Tank and 2 x Mech Infantry) and an Infantry Brigade (3 x Light Infantry). Armoured Recce Regiment provides 3 x Recce Squadrons (one for each Brigade)

 

[MilEME09]

LAV is, by definition, and IFV.

And currently being looked at for further lethality upgrades, both AT and AA

 

[KevinB]

LAV is, by definition, and IFV.

Who’s definition?
Pretty much since the 80’s that has been protected mobility supported by a cannon and ATGM.

I’d have much less heartburn with you riding off to battle in them if they had an integral ATGM system in the turret that the gunner and CC could use for Anti-Armor when the M242 isn’t enough.

 

[Prairie canuck]

Which works great until it doesn't work.

It does look promising for a medium weight force - but one will need to understand that it will add a logistics burden, as it is based on a Volvo construction truck

https://www.volvoce.com/-/media/volvoce/global/global-site/product-archive/documents/09-articulated-haulers/05-volvo/v-a30d-d10/v-a30d-d10-2216694153-2003-01.pdf?v=SPg5Pw

So another vehicle to the fleet - not insurmountable - but it would have been a little nicer it was based on something already in inventory.

There are 246 heavy equipment dealerships across Canada that deal with Volvo heavy equipment parts. Shouldn't be a problem. Those trucks are a mining staple used all across the country.