Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[daftandbarmy]

Would some sort of opportunity for Reserve augmentation to those tasks be worthwhile as bait?

No.... my guess it would just pull scarce resources away from any other main effort, and cause that to fail in some way.

Having said that, most reserve units, including those in the West where winter is too mild for proper arctic type training, have at least one winter ex every year.

You could use the Xmas break period to concentrate a fair number of reservists somewhere really cold for up to about 10 days of winter warfare training annually, I would guess.

 

[Kirkhill]

No.... my guess it would just pull scarce resources away from any other main effort, and cause that to fail in some way.

Having said that, most reserve units, including those in the West where winter is too mild for proper arctic type training, have at least one winter ex every year.

You could use the Xmas break period to concentrate a fair number of reservists somewhere really cold for up to about 10 days of winter warfare training annually, I would guess.

And that continues the argument for separation of Vancouver Island and the Lower Mainland as a separate entity. East of Port Mann you can swap elevation for arctic conditions starting in Manning Park


Coquihalla Pass - 1244 m
Yellowhead Pass - 1131 m
Rogers Pass - 1330 m
Crowsnest Pass - 1310 m
Kickinghorse Pass - 1627 m
Spray Lakes Reservoir 1701 m

Kelowna - 344 m
Revelstoke - 480 m
Golden - 800 m
Banff - 1400 m
Canmore - 1375 m
Calgary - 1045 m
Lethbridge - 910 m
Edmonton - 645 m
Saskatoon - 482 m
Regina - 577 m
Winnipeg - 239 m
Kenora - 410 m
Thunder Bay - 199 m

The rest of us in The West find little difficulty finding suitable arctic/winter warfare training venues.

Vancouver really should become a Navy show.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

No.... my guess it would just pull scarce resources away from any other main effort, and cause that to fail in some way.

Having said that, most reserve units, including those in the West where winter is too mild for proper arctic type training, have at least one winter ex every year.

You could use the Xmas break period to concentrate a fair number of reservists somewhere really cold for up to about 10 days of winter warfare training annually, I would guess.

The 2XX ARCG contributed a platoon to the 3R22eR company that went to JPMRC Alaska in March 22 and impressed the heck out of 11 ABN. 2XX will have their ARCG at the Canadian Armed Forces Arctic Training Centre RESOLUTE BAY this coming February. 5XX's ARCG will be at Goose Bay this winter as well. 3XX's ARCG will work with 3 PPLCI's company that will be at JPMRC Alaska. 4XX's ARCG are part of Op NANOOK this year (there are several sub-activities).

As such, the ARCGs do plenty of training and operations in the Arctic/Northern Canada. There is also the preparatory training that occurs leading up to that. All that to say they are a success story. Lots of hard work and obstacles, to be sure, but a success nonetheless!

 

[daftandbarmy]

The 2XX ARCG contributed a platoon to the 3R22eR company that went to JPMRC Alaska in March 22 and impressed the heck out of 11 ABN. 2XX will have their ARCG at the Canadian Armed Forces Arctic Training Centre RESOLUTE BAY this coming February. 5XX's ARCG will be at Goose Bay this winter as well. 3XX's ARCG will work with 3 PPLCI's company that will be at JPMRC Alaska. 4XX's ARCG are part of Op NANOOK this year (there are several sub-activities).

As such, the ARCGs do plenty of training and operations in the Arctic/Northern Canada. There is also the preparatory training that occurs leading up to that. All that to say they are a success story. Lots of hard work and obstacles, to be sure, but a success nonetheless!

Well, that's awesome to hear!

 

[KevinB]

Areas of BC have significantly different types of cold than the arctic or even Northern AB, SK, MB, ON, etc.
Wet cold requires different kit and approaches to things than dry cold.

Wet Cold will kill you easier than Dry Cold all else being equal.

 

[daftandbarmy]

And that continues the argument for separation of Vancouver Island and the Lower Mainland as a separate entity. East of Port Mann you can swap elevation for arctic conditions starting in Manning Park

The rest of us in The West find little difficulty finding suitable arctic/winter warfare training venues.

Vancouver really should become a Navy show.

The issue with 'elevation' on the coast is access: one dump of snow can either stop you from getting in, or out, of 99% of suitable winter training locations. OTOH, sometimes there's no snow at all so you're dragging loaded toboggans over sketchy pieces of soggy ice on the logging road in a downpour

If the ARCG concept is working, as indicated by T2B, that's probably the best way for the ARes to add value to our Arctic commitments in a consistent, high quality fashion.

 

[Kirkhill]

Areas of BC have significantly different types of cold than the arctic or even Northern AB, SK, MB, ON, etc.
Wet cold requires different kit and approaches to things than dry cold.

Wet Cold will kill you easier than Dry Cold all else being equal.

All our puffy, fluffy stuff had little utility even in Gagetown.

 

[KevinB]

The issue with 'elevation' on the coast is access: one dump of snow can either stop you from getting in, or out, of 99% of suitable winter training locations.

Sounds like an equipment issue.
For which a requirement should be raised.

OTOH, sometimes there's no snow at all so you're dragging loaded toboggans over sketchy pieces of soggy ice on the logging road in a downpour

If the ARCG concept is working, as indicated by T2B, that's probably the best way for the ARes to add value to our Arctic commitments in a consistent, high quality fashion.

 

[KevinB]

All our puffy, fluffy stuff had little utility even in Gagetown.

I’ve never been there in the Winter, but I suspect the Maritimes has Wet Cold issues as well, and some of which is a much colder Wet Cold than the Pacific areas for the most part.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Sounds like an equipment issue.
For which a requirement should be raised.

You know, our regular issued 'CQMS-Tex' stuff if actually pretty good in the cold-wet coast. It's a bit heavier and clunkier than similarly available items on the civilian market, but a huge improvement over 1990 kit.

The big issue is boots, snowshoes/skis, tents and stoves.

 

[Kirkhill]

The issue with 'elevation' on the coast is access: one dump of snow can either stop you from getting in, or out, of 99% of suitable winter training locations. OTOH, sometimes there's no snow at all so you're dragging loaded toboggans over sketchy pieces of soggy ice on the logging road in a downpour

Which I why I suggest making the Coast a Navy show - one where the army moves by water.

If the ARCG concept is working, as indicated by T2B, that's probably the best way for the ARes to add value to our Arctic commitments in a consistent, high quality fashion.

Agreed.

But if the ARCG concept is working, and is a sustainable organizational structure, then why can't we consider raising similar Company Groups for other specific tasks - such as, for example, a Maritime Response Company Group. Or have I just discovered the Choir's Hymnal?

 

[KevinB]

You know, our regular issued 'CQMS-Tex' stuff if actually pretty good in the cold-wet coast. It's a bit heavier and clunkier than similarly available items on the civilian market, but a huge improvement over 1990 kit.

The big issue is boots, snowshoes/skis, tents and stoves.

I was more thinking like BV206 and Snowmobiles, and Construction/Snow Removal Equipment etc.

 

[KevinB]

I was more thinking like BV206 and Snowmobiles, and Construction/Snow Removal Equipment etc.

I.E. Terrain and Climate relevant equipment.

 

[KevinB]

I.E. Terrain and Climate relevant equipment.

Which to me is @Kirkhill ’s dual use items to a T. They can be used for regional issues (be it military training or DOMOPS support) or as needed overseas in relevant theaters.

 

[Kirkhill]

The 2XX ARCG contributed a platoon to the 3R22eR company that went to JPMRC Alaska in March 22 and impressed the heck out of 11 ABN. 2XX will have their ARCG at the Canadian Armed Forces Arctic Training Centre RESOLUTE BAY this coming February. 5XX's ARCG will be at Goose Bay this winter as well. 3XX's ARCG will work with 3 PPLCI's company that will be at JPMRC Alaska. 4XX's ARCG are part of Op NANOOK this year (there are several sub-activities).

As such, the ARCGs do plenty of training and operations in the Arctic/Northern Canada. There is also the preparatory training that occurs leading up to that. All that to say they are a success story. Lots of hard work and obstacles, to be sure, but a success nonetheless!

@TangoTwoBravo

Have you had an opportunity to consider how you might grow the ARCG concept from one CG per Div to one CG per Bde?

As I noted just above perhaps some of those could be Maritime Response Company Groups - Vancouver Island, the Great Lakes and the Gulf of St Lawrence for example.

 

[Kirkhill]

Which to me is @Kirkhill ’s dual use items to a T. They can be used for regional issues (be it military training or DOMOPS support) or as needed overseas in relevant theaters.

If you can't get in there for training how are you going to get in there for operations?

 

[quadrapiper]

If you can't get in there for training how are you going to get in there for operations?

At least some of the weather issues wouldn't be operationally dreadful (another day's travel in, or a longer stay, e.g.) but would be unacceptable for limited-duration training evolutions.

 

[KevinB]

At least some of the weather issues wouldn't be operationally dreadful (another day's travel in, or a longer stay, e.g.) but would be unacceptable for limited-duration training evolutions.

Uhm - I would not consider weather issues to be an acceptable operational impediment.
Training, well whatever, it sucks, but it isn't a actual operational issue where lives are most likely on the line...

 

[markppcli]

If you can't get in there for training how are you going to get in there for operations?

They aren’t. Access to high altitude areas of BC is a pretty unlikely task for the reserves and in an emergency they’d probably end up contracting heavy machinery to get in.

The Brigade should have a store of LOSVs for issue though, in a perfect world.

such as, for example, a Maritime Response Company Group. Or have I just discovered the Choir's Hymnal?

What does this Maritime Respnnse Company mean ? What does it look like, what is it’s possible role?

 

[RangerRay]

The issue with 'elevation' on the coast is access: one dump of snow can either stop you from getting in, or out, of 99% of suitable winter training locations. OTOH, sometimes there's no snow at all so you're dragging loaded toboggans over sketchy pieces of soggy ice on the logging road in a downpour

If the ARCG concept is working, as indicated by T2B, that's probably the best way for the ARes to add value to our Arctic commitments in a consistent, high quality fashion.

In BC, you might be somewhere with lots of snow but it’s only -5C, or somewhere where it’s-20C but only have half an inch of snow. Not great “Arctic” training!