Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[rmc_wannabe]

I agree on both counts. I don’t think we’re optimized in the signals world at this time. But to said we lack equipment to field a Bde ? Nah I think that misses the mark.

I think what we lack is depth of scale, and that is itself a limiting factor in fielding a Bde.

I have seen Bde CP vehicles flatbedded into location because it's the only serviceable variant in the Bde at that time. I have seen feast and famine throughout various Sigs Pls for personnel, radios, masts, and TacC2IS systems for Blue PA. I have seen Data bearers go N/S and the lack of 2nd and 3rd line capabilities mean that particular unit is "God gunned" a new notional link via TFOCA.

It's the same for logistics. At least in my time in Svc Bn there was a limited ability to do multiple DPs at once, Running Replen, Decon, and Lines of Communication outside of a BSA scenario. It takes monumental planning and effort to do logistics, but it's always an after thought at the 3/5 shop.

We talk a good game, but we lack the depth needed to make it effective.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I think what we lack is depth of scale, and that is itself a limiting factor in fielding a Bde.

I have seen Bde CP vehicles flatbedded into location because it's the only serviceable variant in the Bde at that time. I have seen feast and famine throughout various Sigs Pls for personnel, radios, masts, and TacC2IS systems for Blue PA. I have seen Data bearers go N/S and the lack of 2nd and 3rd line capabilities mean that particular unit is "God gunned" a new notional link via TFOCA.

It's the same for logistics. At least in my time in Svc Bn there was a limited ability to do multiple DPs at once, Running Replen, Decon, and Lines of Communication outside of a BSA scenario. It takes monumental planning and effort to do logistics, but it's always an after thought at the 3/5 shop.

We talk a good game, but we lack the depth needed to make it effective.

And then there's the medical setup

 

[rmc_wannabe]

And then there's the medical setup

What was it again?

A doctor helps save your life, a medic just makes you more comfortable while you're dying?

 

[markppcli]

And then there's the medical setup

I’ve actually been treated in a field hospital on exercise for a real no duff injury, if you can believe that.

 

[markppcli]

I think what we lack is depth of scale, and that is itself a limiting factor in fielding a Bde.

I have seen Bde CP vehicles flatbedded into location because it's the only serviceable variant in the Bde at that time. I have seen feast and famine throughout various Sigs Pls for personnel, radios, masts, and TacC2IS systems for Blue PA. I have seen Data bearers go N/S and the lack of 2nd and 3rd line capabilities mean that particular unit is "God gunned" a new notional link via TFOCA.

It's the same for logistics. At least in my time in Svc Bn there was a limited ability to do multiple DPs at once, Running Replen, Decon, and Lines of Communication outside of a BSA scenario. It takes monumental planning and effort to do logistics, but it's always an after thought at the 3/5 shop.

We talk a good game, but we lack the depth needed to make it effective.

But are you going to agree that across the CAF we can’t field a brigade because of equipment shortages?

 

[Halifax Tar]

But are you going to agree that across the CAF we can’t field a brigade because of equipment shortages?

I'm sure we can field one, but can we sustain it
? That is the question.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

But are you going to agree that across the CAF we can’t field a brigade because of equipment shortages?

Field, yes. Maintain, sustain, and reinforce? Fuck no.

Like I said, it better be a successful 48hrs for that Bde, otherwise it's going to be a bad time....

 

[McG]

We can field a brigade in Wainwright because the cycle time from field to base to field is within capacity of the Svc Bn to manage so long as the artillery is not shooting real ammo. If we try to field a brigade in another country, we will quickly find that we don’t have enough trucks and we cannot magic away the lack of DISGP.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I’ve actually been treated in a field hospital on exercise for a real no duff injury, if you can believe that.

Nice of you to exercise the medics!

I once attended a field dentist for a broken tooth. One day I may recover ... mentally

 

[Fabius]

Well that’s rediculous hyperbole. In what way are the Bns lacking in sufficient equipment ? I’ll give you ATGMs, but that’s being addressed. The armoured regiments, we can probably field two, same with the artillery.

If your talking about manning, then fine yes I agree, but if your saying lacking equipment then that’s just silly.

If your in a line Bn your not looking hard or talking to anyone.
Examples of equipment deficiencies:

FARs. A LAV Bn likely has 1-2. That’s it and no guarantee they work.

Radios. Not enough really and certainly not enough with the right waveforms and software and backbone infrastructure to enable 21st Century communications.

Night vision. Outside of the AFV thermals, not enough to outfit everyone and what we have is outdated badly. Aiming lasers equals this as well. No white light weapon capabilities, important for urban warfare.

Basic soldier equipment. Tac vests not used, soldiers provide their own. IFAKs provided by soldiers themselves unless on tour but is that rapidly scalable by the CA to a Bde deployment?


Defensive equipment. Ask how many SF kits an Inf Coy has, the answer will likely be between 0-1.

Sure we can deploy a Bn but we would need to rob two other Bns of equipment to do so. Maybe that’s okay? Even doing so would still leave us with a force that’s very dated in terms of equipment overall.
Yes there is supposed to be new equipment inbound between now and 2035 but that’s a big timeframe that I would not be trumpeting as a success.
I get that this is a negative outlook but DND, CAF and the CA have not shown much capacity to improve the very real situation that leads to the negative outlook.

 

[daftandbarmy]

If your in a line Bn your not looking hard or talking to anyone.
Examples of equipment deficiencies:

FARs. A LAV Bn likely has 1-2. That’s it and no guarantee they work.

Radios. Not enough really and certainly not enough with the right waveforms and software and backbone infrastructure to enable 21st Century communications.

Night vision. Outside of the AFV thermals, not enough to outfit everyone and what we have is outdated badly. Aiming lasers equals this as well. No white light weapon capabilities, important for urban warfare.

Basic soldier equipment. Tac vests not used, soldiers provide their own. IFAKs provided by soldiers themselves unless on tour but is that rapidly scalable by the CA to a Bde deployment?


Defensive equipment. Ask how many SF kits an Inf Coy has, the answer will likely be between 0-1.

Sure we can deploy a Bn but we would need to rob two other Bns of equipment to do so. Maybe that’s okay? Even doing so would still leave us with a force that’s very dated in terms of equipment overall.
Yes there is supposed to be new equipment inbound between now and 2035 but that’s a big timeframe that I would not be trumpeting as a success.
I get that this is a negative outlook but DND, CAF and the CA have not shown much capacity to improve the very real situation that leads to the negative outlook.

 

[markppcli]

If your in a line Bn your not looking hard or talking to anyone.
Examples of equipment deficiencies:

FARs. A LAV Bn likely has 1-2. That’s it and no guarantee they work.

Yeah two, agreed not ideal.

Radios. Not enough really and certainly not enough with the right waveforms and software and backbone infrastructure to enable 21st Century communications.

I never had an issue issuing out radios to sections and up. 152s and PRRs were able to be pushed out at reasonable numbers.

Night vision. Outside of the AFV thermals, not enough to outfit everyone and what we have is outdated badly. Aiming lasers equals this as well. No white light weapon capabilities, important for urban warfare.

I’ve always had enough for the dismounts. Agreed out dated but that’s a nice to have not a need. White lights for weapons are in the system if RQ pushed them out or not in another matter entirely.

Basic soldier equipment. Tac vests not used, soldiers provide their own. IFAKs provided by soldiers themselves unless on tour but is that rapidly scalable by the CA to a Bde deployment?

Tac Vests are an abomination, but I don’t think they affect our ability to deploy a Bde. Ifaks are op issue.

Defensive equipment. Ask how many SF kits an Inf Coy has, the answer will likely be between 0-1.

Never experienced this, always had at least 3

Sure we can deploy a Bn but we would need to rob two other Bns of equipment to do so. Maybe that’s okay? Even doing so would still leave us with a force that’s very dated in terms of equipment overall.

Agreed on the dated, especially STANO, but that soldier level equipment does not mean a Bde can’t be fielded.

Yes there is supposed to be new equipment inbound between now and 2035 but that’s a big timeframe that I would not be trumpeting as a success.
I get that this is a negative outlook but DND, CAF and the CA have not shown much capacity to improve the very real situation that leads to the negative outlook.

Overall it seems we clearly worked in very different Bns.

Look I’m not saying our equipment state is good, or even acceptable. Im making the point that hyperbole does help the matter. Do we have massive gaps in equipment, yes. Do we need to modernize and expand our CSS and Sigs infrastructure. Yes. Do we as the CAF lack the equipment to field a single Bde? No of course not. Would it mean stripping over formations ? Probably and I agree that’s not okay.

 

[markppcli]

I'm sure we can field one, but can we sustain it
? That is the question.

Well actually not, the comment was we couldn’t field one. That why I responded to as hyperbole. Agree the sustainment piece would be a night mate.

 

[Fabius]

In terms of night vision the reason the dismounts in the Section have night vision is because they are the priority. They have night vision but the LAV Drivers, CQ storesmen, Maintainers, Signal Operators, RQ staff etc in the Bn don't. Certain Bde units are also lacking NVGs in order to prioritize them for the Inf sections.
For a Level 3-5 range or an Ex MR it works. For actual combat operations its less than ideal. For a G7 country its pretty unfortunate.

Prioritization is not a bad thing necessarily but it exists across all units and formations and it extends to some pretty basic kit. SF Kits for example are prioritized to the 3rd Bns vs the Mech ones because the system overall does not have enough. Same with Radios, prioritized to the AFV fleets with the B fleet fitted for and not with in many cases.
The key factor is that prioritization works as long as we don't have to scale up. If we have to scale anything up past BG the equipment shortages become very prominent and widespread very quickly.

 

[Fabius]

I will add that yes Canada can field a Bde. We can certainly pull together 4000-5000 soldiers and enough equipment to put something in the field that we can call a Bde and that is able to do a number of tasks.

I think most are in agreement that the ad hoc nature of that force and the tasks it would be capable of due to the equipment we have is not in line with a G7 country’s wealth and actual national capacity.

As well I don’t think the equipment shortages are as prominent below sub units due to our staffing and unit strengths.

As a random example, a unit with a war strength of 900 personnel with an authorized strength of 500, sending 350 personnel to Ex MR with all 300 of the Bns MNVGs doesn’t really show the reality of the equipment holdings.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Well actually not, the comment was we couldn’t field one. That why I responded to as hyperbole. Agree the sustainment piece would be a night mate.

I missed a 'to me' in there somewhere...

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Playing a shell game with kit and personnel is the least desirable COA. Especially when you realize that you then have to sustain that through multiple Rotos.

Afghanistan nearly broke us as an Army, and that was when we were a dog with a bone IRT expeditionary operations. And that was only at the BG level, with sustainment pieces bolted on in the form of a NSE and JTF HQ. The amount of folks who did multiple Rotos, some up to four full, 180 day tours, is not a point of pride from an institutional standpoint.

I cannot see the Canadian Army of 2023 being able to do the same today, let alone bumping that up to full CMBG strength.

 

[KevinB]

But are you going to agree that across the CAF we can’t field a brigade because of equipment shortages?

Define Brigade…

If you mean three or four under strength maneuver units plus a HQ, yes.

If you mean a CMBG at war time established strength, I’d suggest no way in hell.

 

[ueo]

What was it again?

A doctor helps save your life, a medic just makes you more comfortable while you're dying?

And yet how many MDs do you see yomping with full op kit plus med bags? Talking about the real pointy end, me... never!

 

[KevinB]

And yet how many MDs do you see yomping with full op kit plus med bags? Talking about the real pointy end, me... never!

When did the FSH’s get obliterated to make the Health Service branch fiasco?