Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[FJAG]

I've been having similar thoughts but from a slightly different direction.

Personally, I think that if Canada wants to grow its army it needs to think in terms of bases within large urban centres (but not in old armouries downtown - in newer more "industrial" ones in suburbs) coupled with hybrid urban units and a career profile for full-timers that lets them stay their entire career within that city.

All of those are limited in range facilities but one can have simulators and just enough equipment for individual training and CAX collective training. Several annual exercises would be held by way of flyover onto prepositioned equipment close to the expected theatre of operations. Large cities have ample airport facilities and Canada has, for once, a fleet of transport aircraft that are adequate on both the tactical and strategic airlift level.

That would not need realignment of facilities as one could easily operate out of Trenton and do pickups in Toronto or Montreal or Ottawa or Quebec.

Just as an aside, I parked my napkin force expeditionary division (1 Div) HQ in Winnipeg to be collocated with the RCAF's 1 CAD for air move coordination on an MGen to MGen basis (as well as being more geographically centred amongst it's units.) That's for routine training and not CJOC managed operational deployments.

Petawawa becomes the centre of all things light and special. Ottawa remains it's closest major air facility for strategic lift. I think the Pembroke and Area airport near Petawawa would need some lengthening (and possibly hardening) to handle fully loaded C 17s.

 

[Kirkhill]

Something like this?

Runways
Direction Length Surface ft m 06/24 6,500 1,981 Asphalt 13/31 5,500 1,676 Asphalt

With a payload of 164,900 pounds, the C-17 can take off from a 7,000-foot airfield, fly 2,400 nautical miles, and land on a small, austere airfield of 3,000 feet or less.

C-17 Globemaster III

www.boeing.ca

2023[edit]​

Canada's busiest airports by passenger traffic[edit]​

Rank	Airport	Serves
1​	Toronto Pearson International Airport	Greater Toronto Area
2​	Vancouver International Airport	Metro Vancouver
3​	Montréal–Trudeau International Airport	Greater Montreal
4​	Calgary International Airport	Calgary Metropolitan Region
5​	Edmonton International Airport	Edmonton Metropolitan Region
6​	Halifax Stanfield International Airport	Halifax
7​	Winnipeg James Armstrong Richardson International Airport	Winnipeg Capital Region
8​	Ottawa Macdonald–Cartier International Airport	National Capital Region
9​	Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport	Toronto
10​	Kelowna International Airport	Kelowna/Okanagan Valley
11​	Victoria International Airport	Greater Victoria
12​	Québec City Jean Lesage International Airport	Quebec City
13​	St. John's International Airport	St. John's
14​	Abbotsford International Airport	Abbotsford/Fraser Valley
15​	Saskatoon John G. Diefenbaker International Airport	Saskatoon
16​	Regina International Airport	Regina
17​	John C. Munro Hamilton International Airport	Hamilton
18​	Thunder Bay International Airport	Thunder Bay
19​	Greater Moncton Roméo LeBlanc International Airport	Greater Moncton
20​	Region of Waterloo International Airport	Waterloo Region
21​	Charlottetown Airport	Charlottetown
22​	Fort McMurray International Airport	Fort McMurray
23​	London International Airport	London

Canadian Airports Council

canadasairports.ca

A twofer.

Army gets a supportable training area.
Airports get a security force.

Bonus - Army gets a mission.

Lots of land at airports and hangars are cheap.

 

[Kirkhill]

Canadian Airports Council membership. Virtually every community worthy of the name has an airport.

• Abbotsford Airport Authority
• Aéroport de Québec
• Aéroports de Montréal
• Atlantic Canada Airports Association
• Bathurst Regional Airport
• Calgary Airport Authority
• Canadian Rockies International Airport (Cranbrook, British Columbia)
• Charlo Regional Airport Authority
• Charlottetown Airport Authority
• City of Kingston (Kingston/Norman Rogers Airport)
• Comox Valley Airport Commission
• Deer Lake Regional Airport
• Edmonton International Airport
• Fort McMurray Airport Authority
• Fredericton International Airport Authority
• Ft. Saint John/North Peace Regional Airport
• Gander International Airport Authority
• Goose Bay Airport Corporation
• Government of the Northwest Territories (Department of Transportation)
• Government of Yukon (Aviation Branch)
• Greater London International Airport Authority
• Greater Moncton International Airport Authority
• Greater Toronto Airports Authority
• Halifax International Airport Authority
• Hamilton International Airport
• Kamloops Airport
• Kelowna International Airport
• Medicine Hat Municipal Airport
• Muskoka Airport
• Nanaimo Airport
• North Bay Jack Garland Airport
• Northwest Regional Airport, Terrace-Kitimat
• Oshawa Executive Airport
• Ottawa International Airport Authority
• Prince Albert Airport (Glass Field)
• Prince George Airport Authority
• Prince Rupert Airport
• Regina Airport Authority
• Region of Waterloo International Airport
• Saint John Airport
• Saskatoon Airport Authority
• Sault Ste. Marie Airport Development Corporation
• Sherbrooke Airport
• Stephenville International Airport
• St. John’s International Airport Authority
• Montréal Saint-Hubert Longueuil Airport
• Greater Sudbury Airport
• Sydney Airport Authority
• Thunder Bay International Airport Authority
• Trail Regional Airport
• Trois-Rivières Airport
• Ports Toronto — Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport
• Vancouver Airport Authority
• Victoria Airport Authority
• Windsor International Airport
• Winnipeg Airports Authority

 

[FJAG]

Something like this?

Yes. - Very much so.

 

[Good2Golf]

Something like this?


View attachment 82622
View attachment 82623

Runways
ft m Direction Length Surface 06/24 6,500 1,981 Asphalt 13/31 5,500 1,676 Asphalt

[…]

A twofer.

Army gets a supportable training area.
Airports get a security force.

Bonus - Army gets a mission.

Lots of land at airports and hangars are cheap.

Like nice big runways like this…


…oops…buildings on the big long ex-runway…never mind!

 

[Kirkhill]

Like nice big runways like this…
View attachment 82629

…oops…buildings on the big long ex-runway…never mind!

View attachment 82630

More fascinated by the collection of spools on the runway....hobby?

 

[dapaterson]

Edmonton or Shearwater or... ?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Edmonton or Shearwater or... ?

I'm pretty sure Shearwater's runways are non serviceable now. Would probably need to be pulled up and rebuilt.

 

[dapaterson]

I'm pretty sure Shearwater's runways are non serviceable now. Would probably need to be pulled up and rebuilt.

So... Move maritime helicopters to Greenwood and close Shearwater?

 

[Halifax Tar]

So... Move maritime helicopters to Greenwood and close Shearwater?

I dont know why that was done when they closed the runaways eons ago. Or at that time close Greenwood and move them to S'water.

I have to imagine the only reason CFB Greenwood still exists is because it was political suicide for some MP a long time ago when we were closing and consolidating bases.

 

[KevinB]

Edmonton or Shearwater or... ?

That was / is Edmonton

 

[Furniture]

I dont know why that was done when they closed the runaways eons ago. Or at that time close Greenwood and move them to S'water.

I have to imagine the only reason CFB Greenwood still exists is because it was political suicide for some MP a long time ago when we were closing and consolidating bases.

Would have made even more sense to leave Summerside open, close Greenwood, and leave Shearwater as the MH base for the East Coast.

 

[MJP]

More fascinated by the collection of spools on the runway....hobby?

Space leased to industry to unspool and lay flat and/or storage. Been there in some form for 15+ years. EPS also used the runway for their driving courses

 

[GR66]

Canada isn't the only country struggling to recover from prematurely cashing in on the post Cold War peace dividend.

The Netherlands Hope of Resurrecting a Lost Defense Capability Faces Hurdles

More than 12 years after disbanding its last two tank battalions and mothballing and selling off the entire Royal Netherlands Army fleet of upgraded Leopard 2A6 tanks, Dutch defense officials are n…

dsm.forecastinternational.com

 

[FJAG]

Crickey. The Dutch have a CA$30 billion defence budget. Other than they already have some of their F-35s and didn't fire sale all of their PzH 2000s, they seem to be getting a lot less value for their Euros then we are for our dollars. And yet with less people they manage to man the better part of three brigades and two Marine battalions.

 

[IKnowNothing]

Crickey. The Dutch have a CA$30 billion defence budget. Other than they already have some of their F-35s and didn't fire sale all of their PzH 2000s, they seem to be getting a lot less value for their Euros then we are for our dollars. And yet with less people they manage to man the better part of three brigades and two Marine battalions.

Are they? Snap shot, December 2021, their pre crisis result: (Go to war with the army you have)

Proper multilayered AD system with MANPADs everywhere, 1x vehicle mounted Stinger battery, 2x NASAMS 2 batteries, 3x patriot batteries
vs.
Nothing

45 SP 155'
vs
40 Towed

PzF 3 at the squad/section level plus 300 Eurospike launchers across the army
vs.
M3 CG84 at the platoon level plus 40 Tow 2 launchers across the army

16x 120mm, 60x 81mm (at company), 155 60mm mortars
vs
100x 81mm orphaned in the artillery


120 tracked, 35mm armed CV90's scheduled and started a mid life upgrade to yield a modern, top of the line ATGM equipped IFV
345 purpose build, proper sized, recon/surv vehicles (also getting midlife upgrade)
300-400 support vehicles (Boxers, ARV,s Bushmasters, Fuchs, YPR)
vs
Fistfulls of LAV's and TAPV's

A squadron of leased tanks as part of an international partnership that provides a full tank Bn integrated into their Order of Battle
vs
80 tanks of various quality used to generate a single squadron to be used ad hoc to form BG's


So in terms of value per dollar/euro -
->we got a lot of mechanized "breadth" (read: LAV Bn's) absent pretty much all of the enablers/ capabilities needed for a peer fight, but we hold the pink slips for our tanks
-> they got fully equipped multi-weight force featuring a peer-fight ready armoured brigade (with a little help from a friend)

This is literally post 8096 discussing how to get to an end state that looks much like their "before"

 

[FJAG]

Are they? Snap shot, December 2021, their pre crisis result: (Go to war with the army you have)

Your focus is entirely on the army equipment and, notwithstanding the pejorative language you use every time you mention a Canadian capability, the fact is that all that they can muster is 48,000 personnel forces wide for more money than Canada spends. Their Navy and Air Force are both smaller and less capable than Canada's.

The Dutch have downsized a very capable Cold War army to a small one with a few good equipment choices. I don't think that one artillery battalion and two CV90 battalions give you very much in the form of capability. The two Boxer battalions use a rough analogue to the LAV but there are far fewer of them. The three reconnaissance squadrons use a rough analogue to our TAPV/LRSS but there are far fewer of them. Yes, they've made some more intelligent choices when it comes to AD and AA systems. On the other hand, they maintain two Marine battalions and two landing ships dock (one 20 yrs old the other 30) for which there is really no longer a real strategic purpose.

We tend to denigrate our own capabilities (and heaven knows, I'm one of those), and rightfully so, but for CA$4 billion more per year than Canada, they're getting significantly less.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Your focus is entirely on the army equipment and, notwithstanding the pejorative language you use every time you mention a Canadian capability, the fact is that all that they can muster is 48,000 personnel forces wide for more money than Canada spends. Their Navy and Air Force are both smaller and less capable than Canada's.

The Dutch have downsized a very capable Cold War army to a small one with a few good equipment choices. I don't think that one artillery battalion and two CV90 battalions give you very much in the form of capability. The two Boxer battalions use a rough analogue to the LAV but there are far fewer of them. The three reconnaissance squadrons use a rough analogue to our TAPV/LRSS but there are far fewer of them. Yes, they've made some more intelligent choices when it comes to AD and AA systems. On the other hand, they maintain two Marine battalions and two landing ships dock (one 20 yrs old the other 30) for which there is really no longer a real strategic purpose.

We tend to denigrate our own capabilities (and heaven knows, I'm one of those), and rightfully so, but for CA$4 billion more per year than Canada, they're getting significantly less.

But, unlike us, they still have the structures in place to bring back conscription pretty quickly:

"Even though it is generally thought that conscription has been abolished in the Netherlands, this perception is, in fact, incorrect. The compulsory attendance was abolished, not the conscription. The laws and systems which provide for the conscription of armed forces personnel still remain in place. In 2018, the law on conscription was changed to also include women. Every citizen aged 17 gets a letter in which they are told that they have been registered, but that they do not have to present themselves for service.[3] In Curaçao, active conscription is still in existence."

Conscription in the Netherlands - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Baz]

I'm pretty sure Shearwater's runways are non serviceable now. Would probably need to be pulled up and rebuilt.

Shearwater's runways were worn out when they closed them. The number that was bandied about was $100 million to bring them back. That's why 16/34 inner was reactivated for helo's only.

The land was moved back from Canada Lands to retain it. I'm not sure if the airspace is still protected.

 

[Kirkhill]

Your focus is entirely on the army equipment and, notwithstanding the pejorative language you use every time you mention a Canadian capability, the fact is that all that they can muster is 48,000 personnel forces wide for more money than Canada spends. Their Navy and Air Force are both smaller and less capable than Canada's.

The Dutch have downsized a very capable Cold War army to a small one with a few good equipment choices. I don't think that one artillery battalion and two CV90 battalions give you very much in the form of capability. The two Boxer battalions use a rough analogue to the LAV but there are far fewer of them. The three reconnaissance squadrons use a rough analogue to our TAPV/LRSS but there are far fewer of them. Yes, they've made some more intelligent choices when it comes to AD and AA systems. On the other hand, they maintain two Marine battalions and two landing ships dock (one 20 yrs old the other 30) for which there is really no longer a real strategic purpose.

We tend to denigrate our own capabilities (and heaven knows, I'm one of those), and rightfully so, but for CA$4 billion more per year than Canada, they're getting significantly less.

I will contend your contention on the Dutch Navy and Air Force

Royal Netherlands Navy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Royal Netherlands Air Force - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Dutch have a number of air assets in place that we are only talking about and the Dutch Navy has a properly kitted out Marine brigade with landing ships (and places in the sun to regularly deploy them and their patrol ships).

Caribbean islands - Aruba, Curacao, Sint Maarten, Bonaire, Sint Eustatius and Saba. The Netherlands also have a continuing interest
in Suriname, adjacent to the Venezuela, Guyana dispute.

I think the Dutch have done a significantly better job of covering their bases than Canada when it comes to matching threats and providing means to protect their interests.

Even their Patrol Ships, built to commercial standards are not unimpressive.

Class overview
General characteristics
HNLMS Holland
Builders	Damen Shipyards Galați, Romania Damen Schelde Naval Shipbuilding, Netherlands (fitting out)
Operators	Royal Netherlands Navy
Cost	€467.8 million (2007) for 4 units €116.95 million (2007) per unit
In commission	2012–present
Completed	4
Active	4
Type	Ocean-going patrol vessel
Displacement	approx. 3,750 tons full load
Length	108.4 m (355 ft 8 in)
Beam	16 m (52 ft 6 in)
Draught	4.55 m (14 ft 11 in)
Propulsion	RENK CODELOD 2x MAN 12V28/33D diesel engines (5460KW each)
Speed	21.5 knots (39.8 km/h; 24.7 mph)
Range	5,000 nmi (9,300 km; 5,800 mi) at 15 knots (28 km/h; 17 mph)
Endurance	21 days[2]
Boats & landing craft carried	1 × Fast Rescue Boat (FRB) 2 × Fast Raiding Interception and Special Forces Craft (FRISC)
Complement	54 (+ additional space for 40)
Sensors and processing systems	Thales Integrated Mast SeaMaster 400 SMILE non-rotating air warning radar SeaWatcher 100 active phased array surface detection and tracking radar GateKeeper Electro-optical 360° surveillance system
Armament	Guns: 1 × 76 mm Oto Melara Super Rapid 1 × 30 mm Oto Melara Marlin WS 2 × 12.7 mm Oto Melara Hitrole NT 6 × 7.62 mm FN MAG machine guns
Aircraft carried	1 x NH90 helicopter[1]
Aviation facilities	fully equipped hangar and flight deck for one medium-sized helicopter

And they have subs that they are replacing.