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Informing the Army’s Future Structure

IMHO, when such an agency exists it's much more likely that leaders at all levels either stop or do their own job less well because they check on outsiders to do their job for them.

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Or even worse, as I've seen on occasion, looking over their shoulders for some kind of approval from the 'umpire' because they know their boss will listen to the 'back stabbers' first.

When used in the right way the system can be a real help to a commander and, if not, can resemble the Commissar system. ;)
 
It's not flawed. It's merely a different approach to leadership and its responsibilities and authorities.

I've never said not to do those things . . . they have to be done . . . and more.

You get tested at the next level of leaderships exercises. Our highest level of tactical formation is brigade. Yet the army holds divisional CAXs where the brigade commanders and staff's get tested by the army. Every brigade exercise I was ever involved in had visits by the army commander where he observed the progress of the training.

I did not say that. I said that in a proper army, commanders come to their job having been educated, trained and received experience to make them ready for command at the level they will be taking over. Subsequent to that they ought to be given the resources to fully train their command. Further I said that it is the job of commanders at every level to ensure that their subordinate commanders properly train their units/formations. Essentially that the chain of command functions the way that it should.

This is exactly where I diverge. This creates an organization that looks over the shoulders of the chain of command and, at least in part, usurps the authority of the chain of command from doing its job. The formation of an agency, created by the top commander - in our case the army commander - that goes around and looks into the standards of say battalions and companies and certifies them undermines the trust that various commanders should have in their subordinates to do their job.

IMHO, when such an agency exists it's much more likely that leaders at all levels either stop or do their own job less well because they check on outsiders to do their job for them.

It's a subtle thing. I see nothing wrong by having some form of centralized exercise support staff, like the gunners' IGs and AIGs that a CO invites out to advise him during his own exercises, or a group like a CAX team that develops particular training programs that the army commander wants to see done by his subordinates. If the role of those individuals is to advise the exercised commanders in how to improve their training then I'm all for it. If this staff, however, is there to "certify" the unit and its commander then I'm against it. That becomes the hallmark of an army that doesn't trust its subordinate leaders to do their job. It's an organization that is more concerned in covering its ass through check box staff action than through the proper observations and involvement of the various levels of the chain of command. This type of system is usually a knee-jerk response to an embarrassing failure in leadership - such as the Airborne regiment's problems which had been ignored for years until they came to a head in Somalia. Numerous changes were implemented at that time which, IMHO, resulted in an across the board disempowerment of the army's officer corps rather than narrow and necessary corrective action.

The point here isn't that subordinate units or formations aren't evaluated, but who is doing the evaluation. Such evaluations must come from within the chain of command rather than from outside agencies set up by the top of the chain of command.

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Every one should have some sort of standards and check outside their own chain of command. There’s a reason why militaries have maintained Inspectors General, and other forms internal checks. To suggest that have a full time white cell erodes the chain of command or command authority is frankly absurd.
 
A CO who tells their HQ that their unit is unfit is relieved, and his replacement turns a blind eye, and we end up with war crimes.

Intellectual honesty is career ending.
A CO that was also relieved by the SSF Commander as that CO was drinking beer in on the ranges to excess and filling the empties to make Molotov cocktails for training.

The issue was that the R22eR screamed like babies when their moron was sacked - so they got a second kick at the cat for CO.

Intellectual honestly says that the Infantry Corps to a fault was liable as the replacement was no more competent than the outgoing pinhead.
 
A CO that was also relieved by the SSF Commander as that CO was drinking beer in on the ranges to excess and filling the empties to make Molotov cocktails for training.

The issue was that the R22eR screamed like babies when their moron was sacked - so they got a second kick at the cat for CO.

Intellectual honestly says that the Infantry Corps to a fault was liable as the replacement was no more competent than the outgoing pinhead.
Probably needed some outside eyes on them…
 
Every one should have some sort of standards and check outside their own chain of command. There’s a reason why militaries have maintained Inspectors General, and other forms internal checks. To suggest that have a full time white cell erodes the chain of command or command authority is frankly absurd.
We seem to be carrying on this discussion in two threads.

Happy to know that a leadership system that you have never experienced because your entire career has been in a cover your ass environment is absurd.

Let me get back to the basics. I'm not against collective training. I'm not against a CMTC-type or IG/AIG-type system that sets exercise scenarios for units or formations to run through so that they can experience significant teaching points and can be evaluated in their effectiveness by their immediate chain of command or who advise the exercised commanders on the strengths and shortcoming of their units.

I am for a proper system of education, training and experience that prepares both commanders and their staff for their job. I am for empowering and resourcing commanders so that they can properly train their units and formations for war.

I oppose a system of certification by staff from an agency outside of the immediate chain of command. Such a system smacks of lack of trust in subordinate commanders and fosters an atmosphere where developing commanders can become hesitant, lose belief in themselves, mistrust developing novel approaches and are less prone to trusting their instincts or in trusting their subordinates without some form of outside confirmation. It can also result in senior leaders abrogating their responsibilities for assessing their subordinates through numerous personal contacts and observations during training by relying instead on check-listed, cover your ass, staff assessments. The point isn't that you do not assess training; the point is who assesses and how its done.

I'm not saying that you can't develop good leaders in such a system, I'm saying that the likelihood of developing really good leaders is diminished by it. Trust in yourself and your subordinates is a delicate thing. It needs to be nurtured because all check lists disappear once you cross the line of departure.

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Probably needed some outside eyes on them…
Neither Patricia nor Royal was willing to take the slot away from the Vandoos, the suggestion was that if they needed an incompetent boon replaced later it would happen too…
 
We seem to be carrying on this discussion in two threads.

Happy to know that a leadership system that you have never experienced because your entire career has been in a cover your ass environment is absurd.

Let me get back to the basics. I'm not against collective training. I'm not against a CMTC-type or IG/AIG-type system that sets exercise scenarios for units or formations to run through so that they can experience significant teaching points and can be evaluated in their effectiveness by their immediate chain of command or who advise the exercised commanders on the strengths and shortcoming of their units.

I am for a proper system of education, training and experience that prepares both commanders and their staff for their job. I am for empowering and resourcing commanders so that they can properly train their units and formations for war.

I oppose a system of certification by staff from an agency outside of the immediate chain of command. Such a system smacks of lack of trust in subordinate commanders and fosters an atmosphere where developing commanders can become hesitant, lose belief in themselves, mistrust developing novel approaches and are less prone to trusting their instincts or in trusting their subordinates without some form of outside confirmation. It can also result in senior leaders abrogating their responsibilities for assessing their subordinates through numerous personal contacts and observations during training by relying instead on check-listed, cover your ass, staff assessments. The point isn't that you do not assess training; the point is who assesses and how its done.

I'm not saying that you can't develop good leaders in such a system, I'm saying that the likelihood of developing really good leaders is diminished by it. Trust in yourself and your subordinates is a delicate thing. It needs to be nurtured because all check lists disappear once you cross the line of departure.

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At a certain point there isn’t a superior HQ to do that.

Canada could be argued that it doesn’t really have a credible ability to do that above BN, as the Bde’s are really Brigades, and above Brigade it definitely doesn’t have any credibility or ability as a Combat Command.
 
The Vandoos should probably be blown up and parceled out anyways. The loose cannon culture is insane and curries zero favours with the rest of the army or with our allies. I heard that the Latvian government do not want them back in country due to the problems they caused. I'm taking that with a major pound of salt though.
 
The Vandoos should probably be blown up and parceled out anyways. The loose cannon culture is insane and curries zero favours with the rest of the army or with our allies. I heard that the Latvian government do not want them back in country due to the problems they caused. I'm taking that with a major pound of salt though.
Every Regiment does something dumb every now and then.
Usually they try to atone for it.
However IMHO the fact the R22eR are French has in previous incidents given a bit of a pass.

I’ve met some fantastic Vandoo Officers and NCO’s over the years, I’ve also met the absolute worst examples of what Infantry Officers and Sgt/WO’s should be from the same.

Also the Regimental system will often go to bat for people it should not.
 
Every Regiment does something dumb every now and then.
Usually they try to atone for it.
However IMHO the fact the R22eR are French has in previous incidents given a bit of a pass.

I’ve met some fantastic Vandoo Officers and NCO’s over the years, I’ve also met the absolute worst examples of what Infantry Officers and Sgt/WO’s should be from the same.

Also the Regimental system will often go to bat for people it should not.
You're not wrong, but I get CAR vibes from the Vandoos, but far more pugilistic with other regiments. The shitting in the water buffalo trope didn't become a thing with the Vandoos for no reason.
 
Every Regiment does something dumb every now and then.
Usually they try to atone for it.
However IMHO the fact the R22eR are French has in previous incidents given a bit of a pass.

I’ve met some fantastic Vandoo Officers and NCO’s over the years, I’ve also met the absolute worst examples of what Infantry Officers and Sgt/WO’s should be from the same.

Also the Regimental system will often go to bat for people it should not.

I wonder...

How do they fare in comparison with other franco units? How are other non-franco units doing these days?

I have no idea of course but, if there are issues across the board or more specifically, it's worth taking that on as a leadership development opportunity writ large.
 
At a certain point there isn’t a superior HQ to do that.
That may be true, albeit the CoC is always there. There is a structural problem if the CoC does not have the authority or the resources to do it at its respective levels. Eventually the buck stops with the CCA BUT IMHO it's wrong for the CCA to set up a staff system at his level to reach down and do evaluations and certifications or if CJOC was to set up a system that reaches into the FG structure.
Canada could be argued that it doesn’t really have a credible ability to do that above BN, as the Bde’s are really Brigades, and above Brigade it definitely doesn’t have any credibility or ability as a Combat Command.
There's a lot of truth in that. There was a time when we didn't even train as brigades because of lack of funding. We've cured that to a large part.

I'm not familiar enough with our current div structure so as to say where their responsibilities start and stop. I know where it should, I just don't know where in fact the lines are. My assumption is that the BGen running each division has the appropriate command authority and sufficient staff to properly supervise his subordinate bde commanders and their bdes.

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