Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[Harris]

Here's the info page we were shown yesterday: https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/a...ion/The_Evolving_CA_Placemat_17x11_EN_v19.pdf. Former Divs running each are: 2XX, 3XX, 4XX, CADTC. 5XX gets disbanded.

 

[ueo]

Kind of like removing the C6 Pwt and kicking to units. But ammo is only allotted for IBMGs which troops can’t go on without that sup. And since IBMG is an ISCC requirement it means we can’t make MCpls…

Old suck and blow syndrome!

 

[Kilted]

So if I'm tracking one Division of 3 x CMBG
One Division of 10 x CBC
One Support Division
And a training establishment

In place of geographic divisions, we will have functional ones. In a way is this at least at first going to result in less support functions for the ARes? At the very least, the CDSG's that currently support both. Are there going to need to be nearly identical CDSG's in the same geographic locations, or is this going to result in reservists in Toronto being told to go to London to exchange their kit because Denison belongs to the reg force division?

Id have to do a little digging, but I'm pretty sure that we have always had some type of geographic alignment and now we are breaking into an American League-National League situation.

Or are all of the support functions going to be divested from both divisions and put into the support division?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Here's the info page we were shown yesterday: https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/a...ion/The_Evolving_CA_Placemat_17x11_EN_v19.pdf. Former Divs running each are: 2XX, 3XX, 4XX, CADTC. 5XX gets disbanded.

Lots of green people scrambling to find jobs in Halifax right now I imagine.

 

[McG]

Lots of green people scrambling to find jobs in Halifax right now I imagine.

The Reg F will just be posted where they are needed. Civilians & career Cl B reservists are the ones who will need to play a more active role in finding their next job.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The Reg F will just be posted where they are needed. Civilians & career Cl B reservists are the ones who will need to play a more active role in finding their next job.

I think you underestimate how much RegF Army folks liked being Army without having to Army out here.

I never understood why the Div HQ was here in the first place.

 

[McG]

I never understood why the Div HQ was here in the first place.

A lot of people in the 5 Div HQ have second hats in support of the RJTF HQ, which is in Halifax. If the Div HQ had been somewhere else, then the one person with two bosses arrangements would not have worked as well.

 

[Halifax Tar]

A lot of people in the 5 Div HQ have second hats in support of the RJTF HQ, which is in Halifax. If the Div HQ had been somewhere else, then the one person with two bosses arrangements would not have worked as well.

Some. Most of us on MARLANT staff hold those positions with both N and J hats.

 

[boredtoon]

This becomes because we’ve decided we need 10 CBGs for some reason. The document claims mobilization but I tend to think it’s a question of the path of least resistance.

Theres a slide-deck on Sharepoint that discusses the different COAs, and some of the points for maintaining 10 CBGs was that it was the path of least resistance, there is a strong desire to keep the CBG Comds AOR within an 8 hour drive end to end, and to maintain ARes Col positions that actually command something.

So if I'm tracking one Division of 3 x CMBG
One Division of 10 x CBC
One Support Division
And a training establishment

In place of geographic divisions, we will have functional ones. In a way is this at least at first going to result in less support functions for the ARes? At the very least, the CDSG's that currently support both. Are there going to need to be nearly identical CDSG's in the same geographic locations, or is this going to result in reservists in Toronto being told to go to London to exchange their kit because Denison belongs to the reg force division?

Id have to do a little digging, but I'm pretty sure that we have always had some type of geographic alignment and now we are breaking into an American League-National League situation.

Or are all of the support functions going to be divested from both divisions and put into the support division?

The CDSGs are moving to the support division. The support division will encompass all the bases etc. Bases/armouries/RTAs wont belong to the reg or reserve force, they will belong to the support division which will manage it all. Toronto based reservists will still get kitted out in toronto, etc, because the support div will not have any arbitrary lines on where reservists or reg force guys get kitted.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Not everything desirable on our napkins should be attempted at once.

 

[Fabius]

Not everything desirable on our napkins should be attempted at once.

There is a line between breaking the very very strong institutional inertia in the Army and breaking the Army by having everything in motion with no foot on the ground.

I suspect we are going to make that line very fine and then try to walk it.

 

[KevinB]

There is a line between breaking the very very strong institutional inertia in the Army and breaking the Army by having everything in motion with no foot on the ground.

I suspect we are going to make that line very fine and then try to walk it.

Feet on the ground don’t matter much if the head is in the clouds…

 

[Kilted]

Lots of green people scrambling to find jobs in Halifax right now I imagine.

I don't think that the army identifies with green anymore.

 

[FJAG]

Not everything desirable on our napkins should be attempted at once.

Feet on the ground don’t matter much if the head is in the clouds…

Bingo on both counts. BUT, there needs to be an end to end plan and a roadmap. My fear is that the folks that should be making things happen will be so wound up in the three divisions that are in motion that there will be no one to press the gas pedal or steer the "Canada Force" division.

"Inflection" has it right when it says:

The CA must also develop ARes self-sufficiency in terms of training, operations, and sustainment to accomplish the needed capacity to support modernization efforts. Acknowledging the challenge in meeting universal standards of proficiency, a more tailored and imaginative approach to reserve training and sustainment will be undertaken. Specific requirements may necessitate unique tactics, training, equipment, and even new trades to enable the ARes mandate.

The highlighted portion is critical. If the CA's end goal is to create a "self sufficient ARes" then the upfront effort of that is complex, long-term and will require much brain and full-time manpower on behalf of the CA leadership to get there. They are in effect trying to fix sixty plus years of neglect. Everyone agrees that there is a looming threat and yet the most difficult part of transformation - creating a viable, competent ARes (aimed to be over half of the army's strength) has been relegated to the sidelines.

I'm not sure how many of you here use Gantt charts - I expect quite a few - but there is one thing that is key to any project and that's the "critical path." It's impossible to set one up until you determine the project's desired end state and end date and then evaluate the steps required to get you there. We have no end state other than a vague expression of self-sufficiency. We have no apparent end date. We have no apparent steps. We have no apparent critical path. One can only hope that somewhere in the modernization project office there is at least a napkin with some scribbles on it.

 

[MilEME09]

So if I'm tracking one Division of 3 x CMBG
One Division of 10 x CBC
One Support Division
And a training establishment

In place of geographic divisions, we will have functional ones. In a way is this at least at first going to result in less support functions for the ARes? At the very least, the CDSG's that currently support both. Are there going to need to be nearly identical CDSG's in the same geographic locations, or is this going to result in reservists in Toronto being told to go to London to exchange their kit because Denison belongs to the reg force division?

Id have to do a little digging, but I'm pretty sure that we have always had some type of geographic alignment and now we are breaking into an American League-National League situation.

Or are all of the support functions going to be divested from both divisions and put into the support division?

The maneuver division will be significantly bigger then just the 3 CMBGs, once you include the other elements to have proper division, the Div is looking at 6-7 various brigades. Remember if the CA wants to fight as a division, that means we need division level enablers, CSS, GBAD, artillery etc

 

[Kilted]

So if they are looking to make the reserves more self sufficient and are talking about switching units roles, does that potentially mean that we are looking at a few infantry units converting to service battalions?

 

[KevinB]

So if they are looking to make the reserves more self sufficient and are talking about switching units roles, does that potentially mean that we are looking at a few infantry units converting to service battalions?

Well unfortunately a Res Service BN can’t do a lot. So it’s more practical to switch Reg Combat Arms to CSS roles - and have more PRes Cbt Arms…

 

[Brad Sallows]

So if they are looking to make the reserves more self sufficient and are talking about switching units roles, does that potentially mean that we are looking at a few infantry units converting to service battalions?

Not quite. They will have to start as MLBUs and prove they are capable of working up from there.

 

[daftandbarmy]

So if they are looking to make the reserves more self sufficient and are talking about switching units roles, does that potentially mean that we are looking at a few infantry units converting to service battalions?

The CAF couldn't handle it...

 

[PuckChaser]

Well unfortunately a Res Service BN can’t do a lot. So it’s more practical to switch Reg Combat Arms to CSS roles - and have more PRes Cbt Arms…

Light infantry yes, LAV-based infantry no. PRes, despite its bleating, will never have a reliable source of mobilization for current RegF tasks for mechanized or armour. They'd spend an entire year running just LAV Gunner on weekends, and half that time would be transiting to ranges. Even PRes Sigs has next to no common equipment with the RegF for the long term foreseeable future.

We need to stop pretending that the Army Reserve can be RegF equivalent in every trade. Heck, the RegF doesn't even have the time to be RegF equivalent in its training with the speed we're onboarding the sorely needed new vehicle fleets into the CA. Good luck 1 Bde converting everyone from Bison to ACSV next year, and potentially 2 Bde onboarding LVM-L and LVM-H "just in time" for Latvia in 2.5 years.