Initiatives launched to retain and increase RCAF personnel experience levels

[kev994]

Last minute schedule changes are the norm because there are not enough people with certain quals. Insufficient time off, incessant calls on your time off to ask ‘quick questions’ that can actually wait…

 

[Hwyhtac]

That, at first glance, actually makes much more sense than any previous failed attempt that I've seen.

Too late for me, though...

For me as well, though it wouldn’t have retained me either way.

 

[daftandbarmy]

All of the above. And our market value, for often better conditions, is much higher than what we are offered within the CAF at the moment.

Our bases were built in remote locations post-WW2 to defend us against nuclear attack from slow moving bombers a la Dr. Strangelove.

Maybe they need to be repositioned closer to the bigger urban centres, and include more generous cost of living incentives, to reflect the bigger threat these days: our increasing inability to address the quality of life needs for an ever shrinking pool of highly qualified, eligible applicants/ staff in all areas of the CAF.

 

[dimsum]

Maybe they need to be repositioned closer to the bigger urban centres, and include more generous cost of living incentives, to reflect the bigger threat these days: our increasing inability to address the quality of life needs for an ever shrinking pool of highly qualified, eligible applicants/ staff in all areas of the CAF.

So, obviously what will happen is that fewer people will do more.

 

[daftandbarmy]

So, obviously what will happen is that fewer (less satisfied/motivated/qualified) people will do more.

There, FTFY

 

[Good2Golf]

Our bases were built in remote locations post-WW2 to defend us against nuclear attack from slow moving bombers a la Dr. Strangelove.

Maybe they need to be repositioned closer to the bigger urban centres, and include more generous cost of living incentives, to reflect the bigger threat these days: our increasing inability to address the quality of life needs for an ever shrinking pool of highly qualified, eligible applicants/ staff in all areas of the CAF.

Not sure that’s totally the case. RCAF Station Downsview had Sabres flying out of it. Pretty certain that there is no way at all that the CAF/RCAF could come anywhere close to returning a fighter wing to Downsview to “be closer to the recruiting base”...

 

[dimsum]

Not sure that’s totally the case. RCAF Station Downsview had Sabres flying out of it. Pretty certain that there is no way at all that the CAF/RCAF could come anywhere close to returning a fighter wing to Downsview to “be closer to the recruiting base”...

Maybe not that close, but maybe an area about 1h away from the GTA? For example, RAAF Base Amberley is about 1h from Brisbane and has Super Hornets, Growlers, A330 MRTTs, C-17s, etc. RAAF bases aren't right in the city but about 30min to 1h away from the city centres.

Close enough that people could commute if they wanted, but some would live closer to the base.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Maybe not that close, but maybe an area about 1h away from the GTA? For example, RAAF Base Amberley is about 1h from Brisbane and has Super Hornets, Growlers, A330 MRTTs, C-17s, etc. RAAF bases aren't right in the city but about 30min to 1h away from the city centres.

Close enough that people could commute if they wanted, but some would live closer to the base.

I was at YVR last month and drove past all the former RCAF family housing.

 

[Good2Golf]

Maybe not that close, but maybe an area about 1h away from the GTA? For example, RAAF Base Amberley is about 1h from Brisbane and has Super Hornets, Growlers, A330 MRTTs, C-17s, etc. RAAF bases aren't right in the city but about 30min to 1h away from the city centres.

Close enough that people could commute if they wanted, but some would live closer to the base.

Sounds like............YTR

 

[dimsum]

Sounds like............YTR

At the current rate of development in the GTA, yes. Making YTR into a "superbase" isn't the worst idea.

The ADF strategy is to protect the big cities in the south. Sorry Perth; you're out on your own (from an Air Force perspective). The only RAAF base out there is their version of Moose Jaw.

 

[lenaitch]

I have observed this type of discussion before and, clearly as outsider, I wonder how trying to solve a recruiting issue squares with operational needs. From an 'urban-applicant perspective, how big is big enough? To many urban young, it's not only moving away to a smaller community, it's moving away from their community. From a Toronto perspective, for many even moving north of Steeles Ave. is considered Terre Inconnue. I have seen complains that places like North Bay (~85,000) and Greenwood are too small and boring (although I would personally move to the Annapolis Valley in a heartbeat, but I'm not young).

Obviously, naval bases need to be near the water, even though I've heard some complain that even Halifax is 'boring', unless it was the intent to have them inland.

The army seems to need lots of geography to do what they do. Do we buy up gobs of very expensive real estate? Or smaller plots and have them constantly truck away to farther, larger ones for training? In the southern Ontario context, do we turn Borden back into a garrison/airbase? Would that be close enough to satisfy recruiting? Pettawawa is only 1 1/2 hours from Ottawa - close enough?

For the Air Force, how does having them close to urban centres - most of which are along the US border - square with our NORAD commitments? And what about the need for restricted airspace for training? I suppose Edmonton could replace Cold Lake. Would Trenton even have the space? I have seen discussions about the 'need' to turn one or more of the northern FOLs into bases. I imagine that might impact recruiting ('good news, honey, I got my wings; the bad news is . . .).

Obviously, there are factors I'm not aware of, and the location of military bases and other federal properties is as much, or more of, a political decision as opposed to an operational one.

 

[TCM621]

Small Towns are boring, big cities are expensive, Comox is both. We can't please everyone so why even try? Instead make it worth living somewhere you wouldn't otherwise while making living there viable either through affordable housing options not tied to market rents or a proper housing/living allowance allowance that reflects the actual cost of living in that area.

I would live anywhere provided I could afford to live there and my family would have the proper supports like Drs. Instead you often have to chose (to the extent you get a choice) super expensive or completely devoid of family support. Once in a while you hit the jackpot and get posted somewhere expensive and devoid of family support.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I have observed this type of discussion before and, clearly as outsider, I wonder how trying to solve a recruiting issue squares with operational needs. From an 'urban-applicant perspective, how big is big enough? To many urban young, it's not only moving away to a smaller community, it's moving away from their community. From a Toronto perspective, for many even moving north of Steeles Ave. is considered Terre Inconnue. I have seen complains that places like North Bay (~85,000) and Greenwood are too small and boring (although I would personally move to the Annapolis Valley in a heartbeat, but I'm not young).

Obviously, naval bases need to be near the water, even though I've heard some complain that even Halifax is 'boring', unless it was the intent to have them inland.

The army seems to need lots of geography to do what they do. Do we buy up gobs of very expensive real estate? Or smaller plots and have them constantly truck away to farther, larger ones for training? In the southern Ontario context, do we turn Borden back into a garrison/airbase? Would that be close enough to satisfy recruiting? Pettawawa is only 1 1/2 hours from Ottawa - close enough?

For the Air Force, how does having them close to urban centres - most of which are along the US border - square with our NORAD commitments? And what about the need for restricted airspace for training? I suppose Edmonton could replace Cold Lake. Would Trenton even have the space? I have seen discussions about the 'need' to turn one or more of the northern FOLs into bases. I imagine that might impact recruiting ('good news, honey, I got my wings; the bad news is . . .).

Obviously, there are factors I'm not aware of, and the location of military bases and other federal properties is as much, or more of, a political decision as opposed to an operational one.

The majority of the CAF Reserves, and the RCN, are located in urban centres, close to large numbers of Canadians, and have deep roots in those communities.

The Reg F Army & RCAF seem to be 'odd man out' in this regard and, as result of a policy that seems to favour 'proximity to dirt we can blow up/ sky we can shred', are more socially distanced from the great majority of Canada's population, squirrelled away in various little remote ghettos we've built for them around the country. And the West Coast (except for Comox of course).

Hey, wait a minute, I think I've just talked myself out of my argument

 

[dimsum]

The Reg F Army & RCAF seem to be 'odd man out' in this regard and, as result of a policy that seems to favour 'proximity to dirt we can blow up/ sky we can shred', are more socially distanced from the great majority of Canada's population, squirrelled away in various little remote ghettos we've built for them around the country. And the West Coast (except for Comox of course).

I have zero confidence that any PLD update will result in a positive benefit for CAF members. So, for this thought experiment, I can see the timeline already:

1. Magically move Army and RCAF bases near cities
2. CAF members rejoice because of QOL, spousal jobs, and amenities
3. CAF members realize how crazy housing situation is near cities
4. CAF members complain that the bases are now (more) unaffordable
5. Magically move Army and RCAF bases away from cities
6. CAF members rejoice because they can afford houses
7. CAF members complain that there is nothing to do and no jobs in X town
8. Go back to 1

 

[Sf2]

At the current rate of development in the GTA, yes. Making YTR into a "superbase" isn't the worst idea.

The ADF strategy is to protect the big cities in the south. Sorry Perth; you're out on your own (from an Air Force perspective). The only RAAF base out there is their version of Moose Jaw.

Holsworthy Barracks....20 mins from Sydney. There's even a train station on base

 

[dimsum]

Holsworthy Barracks....20 mins from Sydney. There's even a train station on base

Aus Army, but I'll allow it b/c they do have helicopters there. The closest RAAF Base is Richmond (where all of their C-130s are), 50km from city centre.

I also really like how they have one* base per type of aircraft. Those bases are near-ish to their cities**. Downside is that their crews are away from home probably more than ours on average because they have to TD for training, patrols, etc.

* Except fighters, and even then not all of them - the Super Hornets and Growlers are all in RAAF Base Amberley.

** Except training bases bc like us, they want lots of room to train aircrews.

 

[kev994]

I have observed this type of discussion before and, clearly as outsider, I wonder how trying to solve a recruiting issue squares with operational needs. From an 'urban-applicant perspective, how big is big enough? To many urban young, it's not only moving away to a smaller community, it's moving away from their community. From a Toronto perspective, for many even moving north of Steeles Ave. is considered Terre Inconnue. I have seen complains that places like North Bay (~85,000) and Greenwood are too small and boring (although I would personally move to the Annapolis Valley in a heartbeat, but I'm not young).

Obviously, naval bases need to be near the water, even though I've heard some complain that even Halifax is 'boring', unless it was the intent to have them inland.

The army seems to need lots of geography to do what they do. Do we buy up gobs of very expensive real estate? Or smaller plots and have them constantly truck away to farther, larger ones for training? In the southern Ontario context, do we turn Borden back into a garrison/airbase? Would that be close enough to satisfy recruiting? Pettawawa is only 1 1/2 hours from Ottawa - close enough?

For the Air Force, how does having them close to urban centres - most of which are along the US border - square with our NORAD commitments? And what about the need for restricted airspace for training? I suppose Edmonton could replace Cold Lake. Would Trenton even have the space? I have seen discussions about the 'need' to turn one or more of the northern FOLs into bases. I imagine that might impact recruiting ('good news, honey, I got my wings; the bad news is . . .).

Obviously, there are factors I'm not aware of, and the location of military bases and other federal properties is as much, or more of, a political decision as opposed to an operational one.

To be clear, the RCAF does not have a pilot recruiting issue, there are tons of applicants. Retention is the problem.

 

[lenaitch]

Small Towns are boring, big cities are expensive, Comox is both. We can't please everyone so why even try? Instead make it worth living somewhere you wouldn't otherwise while making living there viable either through affordable housing options not tied to market rents or a proper housing/living allowance allowance that reflects the actual cost of living in that area.

I would live anywhere provided I could afford to live there and my family would have the proper supports like Drs. Instead you often have to chose (to the extent you get a choice) super expensive or completely devoid of family support. Once in a while you hit the jackpot and get posted somewhere expensive and devoid of family support.

And, again, as an outsider, I always thought they did that; perhaps it was better back in the day. My exposure is limited but back in the late '70 I was posted to Sioux Lookout with the CFS nearby. I was quite surprised that this relatively small station had messes, a gym, pool, seemingly lots of housing (albeit trailers), clubs, etc. This was a town of ~3200; not bad compared to many of radar stations. My former service used to have some cheap government-provided housing in small communities but the CRA decided that was a taxable benefit and the government decided to go to market-valued rents.

In earlier times, spousal employment seemed less of an issue and, even if it was, it was often a job, not a career. The communities were usually pretty good finding something at the bank or retail (if they were a nurse or teacher they were usually golden). Now, there is a great tendency towards spousal careers, causing many of our members reluctant to take on a remote posting. with 12-hour shifts and long stretches of rest days, some will live in a larger centre and commute, some sharing an rental in the small town.

 

[mariomike]

To many urban young, it's not only moving away to a smaller community, it's moving away from their community. From a Toronto perspective, for many even moving north of Steeles Ave. is considered Terre Inconnue.

My sister joined the RCAF and looked back on Toronto with no regrets.

As someone who was never a Recruiter, does the CAF encourage cultural organizations as a bridge between the CAF and the various communities within a big city?

I know there's the Legion, but maybe something more like this, for example.

Fraternals - NYPD

 

[dimsum]

In earlier times, spousal employment seemed less of an issue and, even if it was, it was often a job, not a career. The communities were usually pretty good finding something at the bank or retail (if they were a nurse or teacher they were usually golden). Now, there is a great tendency towards spousal careers, causing many of our members reluctant to take on a remote posting. with 12-hour shifts and long stretches of rest days, some will live in a larger centre and commute, some sharing an rental in the small town.

I wonder if it was "less of an issue" because society was normalized to the woman being a housewife. Now, it's normalized for both adults to have careers, and the military (not just CAF - I've heard the same issues from friends in multiple militaries) posting cycle is at odds with current society.

I think this issue of postings/locations/one-person-in-the-family careers is what will keep us from recruiting and keeping the people we want. There will have to be some drastic changes to the CAF as we see it now if we want to keep up retention, and with that there might have to be some serious breaking of cultural "rice bowls".

Part of it is already happening now with Covid, when some folks in the NCR realized they get as much (if not more) work done while working from home. RCafe has had conversations about "postings" where depending on your trade, you may never physically get posted but you progress from unit to unit just like a normal military career. Does it matter where you are if you're an admin trade and you have the proper equipment to WFH?

Another one is the issue of "east coast, west coast" squadrons. Aside from SAR and fighters, why do we need 2 locations for each aircraft type? Going back to the Australian example (because big country, similar proportion of members in uniform, etc), each airframe has one location, except for Classic Hornets (they don't do SAR). Even then, Classic Hornet squadrons have 2 locations, and you're at 1 of them (the one close to Sydney) most of your career because the school and 2 of their squadrons are there. Their "Cold Lake" squadron is usually one posting. The RAN Maritime Helicopter fleet is all located 2h from Sydney, their east coast base. West coast (Perth) ships sailing and need a helicopter? They fly it across Australia to join the ship when needed. All of this means that with few exceptions, a member and their family could potentially never get physically posted unless it's to an HQ that's not associated with their Wing. Add that to most of their bases being within commuting distance to their major cities, and the strain can be a lot less. Now granted, because of this, the members will be gone quite a bit more because a border patrol mission would mean TD-ing to Darwin or wherever, then doing their missions, then going back to home base.

As others have said, recruiting isn't the problem because there are tons of 18 year olds who want to do the cool stuff. The problem is keeping them in when they're 30, experienced, have a family, and realize that Cold Lake or Shilo isn't helping their spouse's career (if they had one to start with). Saying "well we'll just replace with other 18 year olds" doesn't work when the experienced people are the ones leaving. As the saying goes, "how long does it take to train a 10-year experienced employee? 10 years."

Whew, that became a bit of a rant.