Int Op or Int Officer

[WATCHDOG-81]

"You cant beat the program, a relatively free eduction, while maintaining your current pay.   If you are a Mcpl or above you will graduate university and be commissioned as a Lt.   No big deal for Cpls, as you are promoted to Lt one year after commissioning (as long as you've completed Ph IV).   As for wanting to be an officer just to get the education for free, I would caution on that as if you really don't want to be one, don't do it.   To get out before your obligatory service is up if you are unhappy can get pretty expensive."  

I have to agree with chaos75.   The UTNCM program cannot be beat. However, as chaos75 pointed out it can get quite expensive for someone who opts out prior to the obligatory service that comes along with the program.   I have heard that one of the ROTP OCdts here in Ottawa pulled the pin after the infamous "first day of the second year" and it is going to cost that person approx $35000.00.   Accordingly, be careful what you ask for as you just might get it.

 

[Arctic Acorn]

Hey RoKo, if that is the case, and seeing how the reg force side of the branch is specializing by element, I wonder if this new revamped QL5 will be seen as the equivalent of the reg force one?

I could see a few folks looking at a component transfer as a result of that one.

Will the school train people with this new system, or will the units still have that responsibility?

 

[Korus]

I think it would be great for it to be equivalent to a Reg F QL5, hopefully that is indeed the intent. As for wether it's the school or units doing the training, I'm not sure who the responsibility will fall on.

 

[Acorn]

The Reg QL5A is now environmentally streamed, so that the Army equivalent is close to the Army Reserve QL4, however it is NOT the same thing. The 5A now has a common ("purple") stream and finishes with Army, Navy and Air phases for individuals assigned to those elements. I think it's a mistake that will likely bite us in the posterior at some point, but it's a done deal.

Officer or NCM? If you have that choice, it's an individual preference thing. I read above that some think that the analytical stuff is done by officers only. Not true. It does depend on the position and who one's bosses are, but even Cpls can be given analytical tasks if supervisors identify them as capable (theoretically a Cpl could be assigned tasks that are not assigne to a Sgt in the same office). The pay issue is valid, but pension is identical in terms for officer and NCM - 2%/year based on best four years pay. An officer gets a better pension because he makes more (usually).

NCOs have some opportunities that most officers do not. A Sgt can be selected as a Defence Attache assistant and serve at an Embassy abroad (officers can as well, but usually only full Colonel; LCol in some cases). Promotion is fairly quick to Sgt (personally, I think that is a mistake, but it is a fact).

Anyway, it will be up to the individual, but my choice (NCM) has worked for me, so I would recommend it.


Finally, CSIS and the CF Int Branch are very different animals. The former rarely hires the latter, and in any case CSIS is counter-intelligence focussed, and ain't quite the James Bond institution that some may think (neither is the CF Int Branch, for that matter).

Acorn

 

[Arctic Acorn]

Thanks for the reality check, Acorn.

On a related topic, our DCO just briefed us on the latest and greatest from the recent Acorn Conference.

Apparently, the intent is to replace the reserve QL3/4 with an (army) reserve QL5, equivalent to the regular force (army) one. The plan is to grandfather all previously qualified QL3/4 int ops under this new system, possibly with a delta course at some point down the road to make up any training differences. This would make a component transfer much easier, as a reservist planning a CT does not have to do (or re-do) the regular QL5, and can go straight to work...barring an element change. If an int op wishes to switch uniforms, then they would have to recieve their element-specific training.

We were told that this is the plan, but it is subject to change.

:dontpanic:

 

[big bad john]

Get another language, no matter what you study.

 

[Acorn]

I'm not that familiar with what the plan is for the Reserve, but the QL5 is modular enough that it could probably be done. I'd caution the reserves though, as the regs are short handed enough, and lacking enough in school seats, that as soon as you start getting res int ops qualified to the same level as reg QL5A, we're going to start poaching.

As for languages, a language other than one of the two official tongues can be an asset, but the majority of the positions we have now will not require it. Unless you're going to use it you'll probably end up losing it.

Acorn

 

[Arctic Acorn]

Judging from the folks in my unit, we'd be perfectly okay with a little poaching.  8)

One good thing I'll say about 3 Int, they've never had an issue with a member wishing to move on. As far as we're concerned a loss for the unit is a gain for the branch/CF, and that is what we're supposed to be all about.

:dontpanic:

 

[Korus]

Must be nice to have a big unit, JavaMan. 

Here in 6 Int, we have one Pl per city.. Very few people. With the constant flow of people on deployments, etc, things can be hard to organize.

 

[Arctic Acorn]

Yeah, we have a ton of new troopies running around the unit now.

As for 6 Int, I know a few folks from the different platoons, and I've heard a lot about some of the C2 issues you guys deal with. I also heard that that may be recitfied in the (not too) distant future.

Future_Soldier...Int units DO hire officers off the street. We have two in our unit right now, and a couple more on the way. None of the new crop of officers we have right now have any int experience whatsoever...we have 3 remustering from other trades. We used to commission within the ranks almost exclusively, but we're short on experienced operators, and are a little hesitant to lose them to the officer side of the house. Each unit has its own recruiting policy and standards, so making blanket statements like that is misleading. Please don't fall into the trap that some new officers fall into that they have to be experts in everything. You're passing on bad info.

Cheers,

JM  :dontpanic:

 

[MedTech 711]

All depends on what you want out of life?  When it comes down to brass tacks, the difference between NCM and Officer level int is a matter of pay.  The access is the same, and the NCMs are a little more hands on...  As an officer you may find you employment prospects limited

 

[ReadyAyeReady]

"All depends on what you want out of life?  When it comes down to brass tacks, the difference between NCM and Officer level int is a matter of pay.  The access is the same, and the NCMs are a little more hands on...  As an officer you may find you employment prospects limited"

Could you elaborate on this a little.  Why would officers have less prospects?

 

[Acorn]

Officer employment prospects aren't limited, unless one considers that the highest rank and Int officer has reached is Col, and the Branch only has three or four of those (there are also only three CWOs and only 10 MWOs in the Branch).

In fact officer prospects are a bit more varied in some ways.

Acorn

 

[custodes]

Some points that you may want to note:

The current plan is that Regular Force and Reserve Force trg will start to converge over the next few years. The plan is that, within limitations, that the Resrve courses will reflect the Regular courses. Thus the QL3 will likely resemble the Core portion of the QL5A and the QL4 will resemble the Land Environmental portion of the QL5A. The Reserve 6A, 6B and officer training will also mirror their Regular Force counterparts.

The good news is that Reserve pers will recieve the same training as their Regular counterparts. The bad news is that it will take longer to get qualified. Thus, it is likely that you will have to take the training over a two summer period. However another option would be to take the QL3 in the summer and see if you can get yourself on the Regular Land 5A to qualify for your QL4.

 

[Signal-Man]

Anyone with with relevant or applicable knowledge please toss in your two cents ... Especially that "Acorn" gentleman ...

I've read several posts regarding inquiries pertaining to OT's, remusters, etc. into the Intelligence Branch.  I as well wish to re-classify into this field.

Before I enlisted, I obtained a post-secondary education at the associates degree level (2 years college - Business Information Technology and Computer Systems - Management & Support).  I employed this education in the private sector for several years before enlisting in the IT and Business industries.  (Hold on a sec - I'm going somewhere with this).

My education & work XP awarded me with a signing incentive & immediate promotion to the rank of Cpl (Cornflake Corporal as some disapproving troops put it).  I've already applied for UTPNCM last year and placed 4th of 60, but only 2 candidates where chosen.  My BPSO warned me that my lack of Mil XP would reflect a negative point on the application, as Int pers usually require some significant time in before their admittance files are reviewed, plus the fact that the prefer field hardened troops, not garrison employed network administrators & PC repair techs ... (I've spend about 10 days in the past 3 years in the field . . . the rest was PC & network admin - lots of leadership trg though & extra IT crses.)

Nonetheless, this gave me an extra year or two to finish my OPME's, get a tour in Roto 3 Afghanistan and think about my options.  So here are my remaining questions that require further insight ...

- 1 - Does my education hold any use / value to the Int branch?

- 2 - Would it be easier to remuster to Int Op, then attempt either a UTPNCM or a CFR to commissioned status depending on my rank?

- 3 - I gather about 7 years of training from my current rank of Cpl to 2Lt if I UTP now.  Is this duration roughly correct?
              > about 3-4 yrs study (approx.)
              > 1 yr 2nd language training
              > 4 more weeks of Basic Training (as I heard we jr. ncm's must return to complete the officer portion)
              > 8 weeks Common Army Phase trg in Gagetown
              > 6 months Basic Int Officer Course in K-town (back I go . . . just got outta there from my QL 5's)
              > 6 months to 1 year of OJT, waiting and application procedures for the UTP program (interviews, tests, etc.)

- 4 - Rumour control has it that the branch is short of operators and accelerated promotions are more frequent within this trade as Sgt serves as the base rank for the purposes of briefings, reporting and advanced courses which are needed under the belts of your NCO corps.  Is this assumption true?  Have WO's really been made within 6-7 years of branch entry?  If that were the case, then within 5 years, Sgt is possibly forseeable, which opens a whole new door on entry options such as CFR, effectively cutting down commission time (if that's still my goal) by 1 - 2 yrs.

Sorry about the rantings, and thanks in advance for your time and consideration.  Your assistance in this matter is greatly appreciated.

Signal-Man

 

[George Wallace]

Right now I would say to remuster to Cbt Arms if Int is your desire.  Int requires a lot of knowledge that you can only get in the Cbt Arms.  Your education is good, but it really means squat, unless you have an understanding of Tactics, Organization of Units from Section up to Div or higher, methods of operations, types of vehicles (Aircraft, AFVs, and if you go Navy, Ships).  You will have to be comfortable doing research, a lot of filing, and giving briefings to ranks up to the CDS.  You'll have to have a good knowledge of maps, map marking, and the use of Traces and Overlays.  Int Ops who have not been Cbt Arms stick out like a sore thumb and their lack of experience can at times be very glaring and alienate them from the Cbt Arms types that they are supporting.

Currently the Int Branch is rewriting its training plans and coming up with a new TQ5 Crse that will probably be Environment based.  Hopefully the Reserve and Reg Crses will then be on an even playing field.

 

[Signal-Man]

Mr. Wallace:

Thank you for your hastened reply.   Unfortunately, remustering to a combat arms trade is so far removed from my career aspirations that I doubt it even registers as a remote possibility.

This is by no means a negative remark on those who have joined the combat arms.   They are the reason why the army exists, and they are often an under-appreciated component of the service (judging by my experiences and the opinions of many combat arms troops that I have befriended over the years).

That being said, there are several blatantly obvious reasons why the combat arms team suffers from some the highest attrition rates in the CF.   I understand that Int respects and attempts to acquire the XP from such mentioned soldiers, but I've met and conversed with several other Int pers whose service background is widely varied - from Sigs to Loggy's and everywhere in between.   Additionally, they all seem to be doing quite well in their new career field since last we spoke.

I am not looking to dance around several MOC's, picking up this course and that lesson.   Rather, I will remain in Sigs and attempt to acquire all the requisites I can obtain to brighten my application all the more to the applicable review committee.   I suppose in addition the previously mentioned four questions that I've stated above (which I'd love to have answered), I should include the following ...

- 5 - What path should I direct my career into in order to further develop myself into the type of soldier the Int Branch is searching for?  2 RCR and 4 ESR, etc. are just down the street.   Should I look at getting a posting with these field ops heavy units to acquire more XP in the mentioned area?   Any additional courses or programmes of study?   Promotions & leadership courses?   Anything else ... ?

I'd preferably like to remuster in as soon as possible.   I understand that senior level troops that take a dip in pay & rank can find quite a change in their standard of living, even if just for a little while.   Perhaps a switch over before any promotions within my current MOC may be beneficial.   (Single bread-winner with 2 children, both under 6 yrs and a new house being built next week - Any extra money will find itself being employed somewhere.)

Thanks again.

 

[George Wallace]

You really don't have much time in do you?   It shows in your post.   I'll answer a couple of statements that you made at the end of your post first.   If you succeed in changing trades, you may have to take a demotion in rank, but as you are only a Cpl, that most likely will not happen.   If you were a MCpl or higher, you would probably be demoted to Cpl.   You will not loose anything in the way of pay, because there is a thing called "Vested Rights".

When I say that you can probably stand a better chance of OTing to Int from Cbt Arms I mean it.   They are looking for that kind of Experience.   You can read about it and you can be told about it, but until you have actually been there and done it, you will never ever understand completely what they do in the Cbt Arms.   If arrogance or ignorance is the problem, it will not do any good.

Now, I don't know what you IT guys figure XP will do for you?   I am running XP at home, but have yet to see any military system running it.

Hope this helps some?

 

[Signal-Man]

XP = Experience ... not Windows XP

Sorry if you misunderstood.

Additionally, your point on Int guys searching for Combat arms pers is getting redundant.   I understand completely that the service pers within the combat arms do provide the Int Branch with more or less the type of experienced personnel they are searching for.   I am not, nor will I become a member of the combat arms team.   So I guess I've have to find different avenues to bring my aspirations into effect.

I am seeking advice on what a C & E soldier can do to broaden his XP (once again this means experience) into fields of study, etc. that the Int Branch is looking for in a potential candidate.   Sigs pers have managed to muster into 111 the past, I want to know what they've done to accomplish this goal.   And I doubt that every Sig became a PPCLI or Dragoon in order to become a Int Op.

Finally, and no offence intended . . . but I wanted this post to be a sounding board between me and actual Intelligence personnel with relevant & applicable experience in the mentioned branch.  I admire your military XP of 30+ years, as I have seldom more then 4, but neither you or I are Int pers ... and I am seeking advice from such people.  I do not want this to be a pissing match . . . I'm seeking information on how SIGS can become INT ... with no filler MOC's involved or further mentioned.

 

[George Wallace]

Well, at the risk of being redundant, go and see the BPSO and find out what the requirements are to remuster/OT to Regular Force Int.   I think you will find a rude awakening.   Have fun.

[Edit 1729 hrs]

Don't listen to me.  Don't listen to your friends.  Go to the BPSO.  You will have to go there anyway, after submitting a memo, to do your OT anyway.

Now I will return to my vodka martini, shaken, not stirred.