• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

International niche roles for CF

Italy can project WAY more power than we can - - for that matter mnay African nations have Parachute REGIMENTS - and a (albiet incompetant) airforce that they could likely invade us...

I would think it easier to list countries we could be rated above for capabilties.  I'm sure there a landlocked cash starved nation somewhere that does not have an airforce...
 
Vig,
I agree with your ranking (or rather, your grouping > insert marksmanship pun here <), but not your terms. I would consider Great Britain, Russia, China, India, Brazil as Middle Powers. A superpower has the ability to influence any-dang-body it wants to. A middle power has some pull. I would classify a Middle Power and a Regional Power much the same. 3 or more Regional Powers equal one Superpower. (With 6, you get eggroll.)
And yes, Canada would be about on par with Italy. And nobody cares what Italy thinks about anything. When was the last time any country on Earth said "Whoa! Italy says to knock it off, or they're gonna get nasty."? If I recall correctly, about 1939, maybe as late as 1942.
 
And once we get rid of point air defence, some of those incompetent African airforces might be able to defeat us on the ground in Africa.
 
Aircraft Carriers are overrated for third world countries  I think. Building the damn thing would be the easy part. The time and expense to buld and train a credible escort/ASW fleet, carrier air wing(landing on an AC at night is harder than most people think, I hear), train crews, develop TTPs, means that only three or four navies in the world (USN, RN, Russian and French Navy kinda ) actually have aircraft carriers that are more than just presidential yachts. The Chinese at this point can't even build a good size DDG, let alone a carrier, and  I don't think anyone's nervously scanning the horizon for that Indian or Thai Carrier strike group.

The Americans are where they are now because they've been doing it for 50+ years, No one's going to come anywhere close for the next 20 years at least.
 
Really good discussion here.

Nothing beats a carrier for power projection. But defending it is a pain, and refuleing and resupply a real mess.

However, I don't think anybody really gives a crap what Brazil thinks outside of South America.

Our GDP, our alliances, and our professional army give us an edge over almost any African army, except for maybe Egypt and South Africa.

And I'd like to see any African country try to project power and invade Canada. Think about it.

"What is this white thing growing on the ground?"
"I believe they call it snow."
 
I'd like to see any nation try to invade Canada. The US would make terribly short work of them. Then we'd say thank you by pillorying them in our media.
There is only one country on the globe that could invade us, and they don't need to. Yet. (And don't anyone take this post as an opportunity to go on some stupid anti-US rant).
 
Niche roles are great favourites amongst many senior people here in Ottawa because they promise to do (even) more with (even) less[/u].

They (niche roles) gained additional favour in PMO after Jennifer Welsh's (Oxford) book and (brief) tenure as 'editor' of the International Policy Statement.  In my, personal, opinion Welsh didn't really understand what she was implying when she used Norway as a model for niche roles â “ she's a first rate scholar, she just overreached a bit there.

One may suggest that we started down the niche road in about 1917 when the Canadian Corps became, de facto the shock troops of the BEF.

From 1918 onwards there have been tensions between a military establishment which craves a general purpose combat mandate â “ with the consequential organizations and manning, and their political-bureaucratic masters who are, constantly, enamoured with smaller, lighter, cheaper and safer niche roles â “ conscription, like hanging, does focus the mind.

Pearsonian peacekeeping became the Trudeau government's favourite (only) niche role: cheap, safe and easily publicized.  The effect (and the intention) of the '69 policies was to render Canadian operational forces irrelevant in combat terms.  (From my vantage point in HQ AFCENT over 25 years ago the Canadians in Lahr had no military utility.  We did not even bother to 'show the flag' on the situation/briefing maps/reports unless a very senior Canadian was visiting.  In fairness, HQ AAFCE and 4ATAF did count the Canadian aircraft.)  It was Mulroney, in 1990 (but not before) who began the turnaround when he finally understood â “ despite the advice of many of his most senior officials â “ that rundown and rust-out and all such terms really did have meaning.  Mulroney wanted to send ground combat forces to Kuwait/Iraq.  I believe he actually promised some to President Bush Sr.  I, personally, participated in doing the appreciation of the situation which persuaded the DM and the PCO that 4CMBG was not, in any way, combat capable and â “ even with virtually all the army forces in Canada added â “ could not be made combat capable and moved to the Middle East and sustained in battle in anything under many, many months.  It is my belief that many (perhaps most) senior officials, including many inside DND, learned the true state of our military affairs only in 1990.  It is my opinion, also, that only a tiny handful of the commentariat ever did grasp the problem and that few failed to inform the Canadian people â “ perhaps intentionally. So much for niche roles!

I remain adamantly opposed to the idea of niche roles for Canada â “ so long as we remain amongst the top 10% of the world's nations â “ as I expect we shall for the next half century.  We are, in 2005, a hugely unbalanced power â “ we are a major economic player (our ½ of 1% of the world's population produces nearly 2% of the global economic activity* â “ more if we don't use PPP measures), with a puny (no better word) global presence.  We are valued as a good example of prudent national housekeeping (thanks to Mulroney's GST) but we have no 'voice' because we have no useful diplomatic and military (= political) power.

I am especially opposed to the idea of sending experts (usually Sr NCOs) out as trainers until we have reformed our own domestic training systems and produced enough senior people to staff our units and schools.  When we have solved our own problems, as I perceive them from deep in retirement, we can consider sending our most valuable resource elsewhere.

----------

* The USA, China, Japan and India, together, account for over 49% of the global economic activity â “ no one else accounts for as much as 4.5%.  On that basis, 2% matters.   
 
Very nice and informative post Mr. Campbell.

That's said, let's keep in mind that the government of Canada is spending 40 G$ on debt reduction (of about 475 or 500 G$). Even with the additionnal 12.8 G$ for DND, Canada is still under the NATO military spending average. It would be more like 25 G$ annually to be on par with other members. Our contribution to defence in 2004 was 1.2% of the GDP whereas the average was 1.9% for the same year. Given Canada underfunded DND for the past 20 years, it would require more than the average to be back on track and with the influence the governement would like to have. It would be then more like 30-35 or even 40 G$. All that keeping in mind we're overdue for building new ships, buying new airplanes (be it transport or fighter-bomber).

Then, Canada could aspire to be a middle-power. Not before spending at least the average percentage of NATO members.

Here's the detail: http://www.nato.int/docu/pr/2005/p050609.pdf
 
Although there are lots of good points here, the basic premise is flawed: Canada's military should exist for the defense of Canada and to secure Canada's national interests. Arguing about influencing people around the world is a bit silly if we can't even secure our own coastlines.

Let's get squared away with the primary premise (Defense of Canada), and decide what Canadian "National Interests" exist outside the borders that we want/need to apply military force to; then the size and shape of the military can be derived. If allies would like to take advantage of some of the capabilities we have developed to secure Canadian soil and our National Interest, then those will be the "niche" capacities.
 
a_majoor said:
Although there are lots of good points here, the basic premise is flawed: Canada's military should exist for the defense of Canada and to secure Canada's national interests. Arguing about influencing people around the world is a bit silly if we can't even secure our own coastlines.

Let's get squared away with the primary premise (Defense of Canada), and decide what Canadian "National Interests" exist outside the borders that we want/need to apply military force to; then the size and shape of the military can be derived. If allies would like to take advantage of some of the capabilities we have developed to secure Canadian soil and our National Interest, then those will be the "niche" capacities.

They have difficulty clearly stating that in the IPS, as to have some kind of vision...

Canada's economy (cuz that's what is interesting the governement) is based on exportation (85% of them heading South) and Canada's national interest is that the world economy continue to give us the opportunity to export more. To export more, world stability is essential. So, basically, the national interest of Canada is to ensure that everyone gets along!! Canada would like to be the friend of everybody... in order to export more!!
 
a_majoor said:
Although there are lots of good points here, the basic premise is flawed: Canada's military should exist for the defense of Canada and to secure Canada's national interests. Arguing about influencing people around the world is a bit silly if we can't even secure our own coastlines.

Let's get squared away with the primary premise (Defense of Canada), and decide what Canadian "National Interests" exist outside the borders that we want/need to apply military force to; then the size and shape of the military can be derived. If allies would like to take advantage of some of the capabilities we have developed to secure Canadian soil and our National Interest, then those will be the "niche" capacities.

Great point, and once we are squared away on defence of Canada we should be able to fit into international coalitions based on our strengths. We as a country, have lacked vision and leadership, both politically and militarily for a while. Lets not make the same mistakes and be forced into areas we are not familiar with like we were in the mid 90's.

I am especially opposed to the idea of sending experts (usually Sr NCOs) out as trainers until we have reformed our own domestic training systems and produced enough senior people to staff our units and schools.  When we have solved our own problems, as I perceive them from deep in retirement, we can consider sending our most valuable resource elsewhere.
I have to agree with this statement, even though this would be one of the ideal roles for infantry NCOs to do in our "new" international role.
 
Back
Top