• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Iran Super Thread- Merged

Enjoy a resurging Islamic Regime then with them keeping Hezbollah and the Houthi alive and attempting to rearm them, along with other regional destabilizing actions.
Nobody wants an resurgent Iran.

What I think people are saying, at least what I am saying is this was so ineptly done, so poorly planned out, so flippant of the obvious pitfalls regarding the Strait of Hormuz, so strategically braindead in regards to allies and regional partners that it was doomed to failure the second the Iranians decided that they didn't care how many in leadership the Americans and Israelis snuffed out.

I would apply the same logic to a similiar global hotspot, Korea. If Trump decided to go destroy Kims nukes and Kim in turn launched nonstop artillery strikes against Seoul to the point that the Americans and Koreans both sue for peace, that's a failure in resolve and strategic planning.

The world had one good shot to stop Iran from getting a nuke, either by diplomacy or militarily and Trump and Bibi wasted it.
 
Enjoy a resurging Islamic Regime then with them keeping Hezbollah and the Houthi alive and attempting to rearm them, along with other regional destabilizing actions.

Those are all manageable knowns. That lawn’s been getting mowed for years. Does it suck? Absolutely it does. Is it ideal? Far from it. But is it manageable? Grudgingly, yes. In a frictionless vacuum, eliminating all of that would be a wonderful thing. But I’m not talking about aspirational, I’m talking about achievable. If America were going to successfully bomb and regime change its way out of this predicament, we would have seen that already. They tried and were not successful. Iran has demonstrated that their ability to asymmetrically threaten major global trade flows is a very, very potent weapon. Their ability to cause major damage to energy facilities costing tens of billions of dollars and taking years to rebuild is also very, very potent. Iran has minimal ability to diredtly physically harm the U.S., but they have succesfully demonstrated the vulnerability of U.S. economic and diplomatic interests. That’s all at least as important as tangible military assets. I’d argue even more so.

And so we see an effective stalemate, where Iran can continue to make this all suck far too much for the “keep bombing” approach to be worth it… Because “keep bombing” will likely not succeed in addressing the threats to SoH shipping nor to targeted strikes on key energy infrastructure.

So, taking the facts as they actually are, what are the tolerable outcomes from among the reasonably possible options? That menu of options may actually be less good than was the case months ago before this started, because Iran has removed a lot of doubt about the harm it can cause- and physical oil inventories are critically low in Asia, and just a month away from being so in Europe. Given their current strategy, Iran’s leverage is not decreasing with the passage of time. It may be increasing.
 
The world had one good shot to stop Iran from getting a nuke
Yup. Imagine if there were still IAEA inspectors that still had access to all of Iran’s nuclear FACILITIES and knew exactly what was being enriched, to what levels, etc…
 
Yup. Imagine if there were still IAEA inspectors that still had access to all of Iran’s nuclear FACILITIES and knew exactly what was being enriched, to what levels, etc…
Oh really? Believe that? Ah, you look like the type who would. Me? Also think that would be a good idea.
 
Those are all manageable knowns. That lawn’s been getting mowed for years. Does it suck? Absolutely it does. Is it ideal? Far from it. But is it manageable? Grudgingly, yes. In a frictionless vacuum, eliminating all of that would be a wonderful thing. But I’m not talking about aspirational, I’m talking about achievable. If America were going to successfully bomb and regime change its way out of this predicament, we would have seen that already. They tried and were not successful. Iran has demonstrated that their ability to asymmetrically threaten major global trade flows is a very, very potent weapon. Their ability to cause major damage to energy facilities costing tens of billions of dollars and taking years to rebuild is also very, very potent. Iran has minimal ability to diredtly physically harm the U.S., but they have succesfully demonstrated the vulnerability of U.S. economic and diplomatic interests. That’s all at least as important as tangible military assets. I’d argue even more so.

And so we see an effective stalemate, where Iran can continue to make this all suck far too much for the “keep bombing” approach to be worth it… Because “keep bombing” will likely not succeed in addressing the threats to SoH shipping nor to targeted strikes on key energy infrastructure.

So, taking the facts as they actually are, what are the tolerable outcomes from among the reasonably possible options? That menu of options may actually be less good than was the case months ago before this started, because Iran has removed a lot of doubt about the harm it can cause- and physical oil inventories are critically low in Asia, and just a month away from being so in Europe. Given their current strategy, Iran’s leverage is not decreasing with the passage of time. It may be increasing.
I suspect it's "tolerable" from our backseat, not sure for the people living under that regime or the Israelis. Mowing the lawn has not achieved much either. I suspect going your route is going to bite us within a decade.
 
I suspect it's "tolerable" from our backseat, not sure for the people living under that regime or the Israelis. Mowing the lawn has not achieved much either. I suspect going your route is going to bite us within a decade.

Are we back to re-adopting the notions of Responsibility to Protect that faded a couple decades ago then? Wanting what’s best for the population of Iran is laudable, but we can dispense with pretending that’s ever been one of the objectives of this war, and set it aside for the purpose of this discussion. We cannot seize on the well being of the Iranian population as a retcon for why this war is happening now that other objectives have gone poorly.

Mowing the lawn has kept things at a manageable simmer for all the time til now. And, critically, it didn’t badly screw global flows in critical commodities trades including but not limited to oil and fertilizer. Staying the previous course would involve other things continuing to be or growing as problems in the future. But the war has fundamentally broken a bunch of things now, and it’s not clear Humpty Dumpty will be succesfully reassembled.

When a tsunami hits a coastline, it’s not a massive and dramatic movie style breaking wave that smashes everything flat in its path; rather it’s a very fast but fairly steady rise in the water level that inundates and destroys, and sweeps some things also as water flows in new ways and places and with increased intensity. That growing water level is what’s being seen with major economic indicators now. We’ve seen oil price shocks in living memory, but an actual physical shortage with major demand destruction is going to be hella disruptive and extremely inflationary. A simultaneous shock in fertilizer supply will compound this.

There’s a major economic crisis staring us in the face through the glass; too many people still aren’t seeing it past the reflection in the window. Every day the economic potential is getting worse, and the road back to the closest point of approach of a new normal gets longer and tougher.
 
I suspect it's "tolerable" from our backseat, not sure for the people living under that regime or the Israelis. Mowing the lawn has not achieved much either. I suspect going your route is going to bite us within a decade.
You're probably right.

But the current approach is bitting us right now, while acheiving next to nothing strategically.

Iran was always going to be a tricky nut to crack, but this current approach has failed so spectacularly that any approach going forward will be even harder to manage.

If the USA (Not Israel, leave them out of it) were to ever try this again, they would need

1) Global buy in

2) Let everyone know to stockpile years of crude oil ahead of time, or reduce reliance on crude oil

3)A ground invasion that limits troops coming home in body bags but also doesn't allow Iran to block the Strait of Hormuz

4)A possible ground invasion that results in regime change

5)Congressional buy in

6)A massive stockpile of cheap anti drone weapons

7)The intestinal fortitude to stick this out and keep the above going long term.

But due to this war and this administration, the above are even harder to acheive due to the complete and total disintegration of American soft power
 
You're probably right.

But the current approach is bitting us right now, while acheiving next to nothing strategically.

Iran was always going to be a tricky nut to crack, but this current approach has failed so spectacularly that any approach going forward will be even harder to manage.

If the USA (Not Israel, leave them out of it) were to ever try this again, they would need

1) Global buy in

2) Let everyone know to stockpile years of crude oil ahead of time, or reduce reliance on crude oil

3)A ground invasion that limits troops coming home in body bags but also doesn't allow Iran to block the Strait of Hormuz

4)A possible ground invasion that results in regime change

5)Congressional buy in

6)A massive stockpile of cheap anti drone weapons

7)The intestinal fortitude to stick this out and keep the above going long term.

But due to this war and this administration, the above are even harder to acheive due to the complete and total disintegration of American soft power
Add - stockpile Fertilizer, helium, nat gas as well
 
Are we back to re-adopting the notions of Responsibility to Protect that faded a couple decades ago then? Wanting what’s best for the population of Iran is laudable, but we can dispense with pretending that’s ever been one of the objectives of this war, and set it aside for the purpose of this discussion. We cannot seize on the well being of the Iranian population as a retcon for why this war is happening now that other objectives have gone poorly.

Mowing the lawn has kept things at a manageable simmer for all the time til now. And, critically, it didn’t badly screw global flows in critical commodities trades including but not limited to oil and fertilizer. Staying the previous course would involve other things continuing to be or growing as problems in the future. But the war has fundamentally broken a bunch of things now, and it’s not clear Humpty Dumpty will be succesfully reassembled.

When a tsunami hits a coastline, it’s not a massive and dramatic movie style breaking wave that smashes everything flat in its path; rather it’s a very fast but fairly steady rise in the water level that inundates and destroys, and sweeps some things also as water flows in new ways and places and with increased intensity. That growing water level is what’s being seen with major economic indicators now. We’ve seen oil price shocks in living memory, but an actual physical shortage with major demand destruction is going to be hella disruptive and extremely inflationary. A simultaneous shock in fertilizer supply will compound this.

There’s a major economic crisis staring us in the face through the glass; too many people still aren’t seeing it past the reflection in the window. Every day the economic potential is getting worse, and the road back to the closest point of approach of a new normal gets longer and tougher.
Except your way, does not remove that blockage, it just opens the valve a bit. It was the protests and subsequent massacre that jumpstarted this phase of the war, the US was not in position at the time to take fulla advantage of that moment.

The Iranians will restrict the Straits again when it suits them, or they don't get what they want.
 
Bombing the hell out of Iran some more doesn’t seem likely to work either. If neither option works, the one that also wrecks global economies and may lead to literally famine in some countries is probably the more bad option.

The massacres in Iran really aren’t a factor here. They’re awful but they don’t shape events.

Iran restricting the strait is a genie out of the bottle. Always gonna be a threat now. It’ll be some years before supply chains can bypass it, and even at that, pipelines and ports will remain vulnerable.

The right now problem is minimizing the economic catastrophe, given that the effort to suppress Iran is going badly regardless.
 
Back
Top