Is it time to list ANTIFA as a criminal or terrorist organization?

[ArmyRick]

As usual, the "antifa" activist out to attack anyone with a different view. Hate democracy?

I think it is time to list these guys as terrorist

Ironically, antifa is the most fascist organization I can think of.

 

[brihard]

IMO, no. There’s nothing remotely close to some large scale or widespread organization called ‘Antifa’ acting with any sort of cohesive purpose towards criminal ends. It’s a flag or social media profile pic that occasionally gets waved by far left anti-authority clubs that may or may not have loose affiliations with each other, but there’s not some cohesive, organized entity that would come at all close to fitting the bill for an 83.05 terrorist listing or a crim org finding in court.

The notion of some widespread organized ‘Antifa’ that gets popularized on social media is mostly a boogeyman.

 

[ArmyRick]

The notion of some widespread organized ‘Antifa’ that gets popularized on social media is mostly a boogeyman.

There may not be, however they adapt a philosophy, with a way of thinking and acting based on stopping oppossing views, smashing capitalism and many other "end result justifies the means" type actions.

In another context, any group of people that waved a Nazi swastika flag or dress up as KKK (without being organized), I am pretty sure they would get charged with several crimes (to clarify I assume the KKK and Nazi is listed as hate organizations?)

So, if your demonstrating, face masked up, waving ANTIFA flags and beating people up in public and threatening people with violence, you feel this is not an issue?

 

[markppcli]

There may not be, however they adapt a philosophy, with a way of thinking and acting based on stopping oppossing views, smashing capitalism and many other "end result justifies the means" type actions.

The point is that to label them a terrotist organization you’d have to be able to define they as an actual group. What you’re describing is bannning a way people think.

In another context, any group of people that waved a Nazi swastika flag or dress up as KKK (without being organized), I am pretty sure they would get charged with several crimes (to clarify I assume the KKK and Nazi is listed as hate organizations?)

No, possibly with inciting hate crimes but again - defined groups with defined goals, memberships, structure.

So, if your demonstrating, face masked up, waving ANTIFA flags and beating people up in public and threatening people with violence, you feel this is not an issue?

That describes a number of criminal acts, it does describe a terrorist group.

 

[ArmyRick]

The point is that to label them a terrotist organization you’d have to be able to define they as an actual group. What you’re describing is bannning a way people think.



No, possibly with inciting hate crimes but again - defined groups with defined goals, memberships, structure.



That describes a number of criminal acts, it does describe a terrorist group.

Let me ask, is antifa a problem? Yes or no? They have appeared at numerous demonstrations and protest, quite often causing violence and physical harm, for decades now.

This to you is not a problem?

I disagree with you and Brihard BTW. I think they should be listed as a hate or very least criminal organization.

 

[brihard]

There may not be, however they adapt a philosophy, with a way of thinking and acting based on stopping oppossing views, smashing capitalism and many other "end result justifies the means" type actions.

In another context, any group of people that waved a Nazi swastika flag or dress up as KKK (without being organized), I am pretty sure they would get charged with several crimes (to clarify I assume the KKK and Nazi is listed as hate organizations?)

They are not. We have listed terrorist entities under a provision of the Criminal Code. We don’t have a similar listing for criminal enterprises, be they organized crime or hate groups. There’s no list you can run a finger down and find a list prescribed by the government naming the Outlaws, Hells Angels, KKK, ‘Ndrangheta, or what have you.

Obviously there’s potential overlap between listed terrorist entities and what could fairly be described as ‘hate groups’, but where listed under 83.05 it’s because of terrorist activity, not simply hate.

So, if your demonstrating, face masked up, waving ANTIFA flags and beating people up in public and threatening people with violence, you feel this is not an issue?

…So just to be clear, because I’m saying I believe they don’t hit the threshold for a terrorist listing, and that no other comparable list exists for other types of crime, you’re going to suggest that I’m OK with assaults and criminal threats of violence? I’ll let you mull that one and decide if maybe you phrased that poorly.

 

[ArmyRick]

We don’t have a similar listing for criminal enterprises

Interesting. Didn't know.

you’re going to suggest that I’m OK with assaults and criminal threats of violence?

I never said that. I said you don't think its an issue (Question). You do realize we can petition parliament to introduce new laws. I realize you could easily charge individuals threatening, assaulting, brandishing weapons, etc.

At some point, especially repeated patterns, I think a larger deterrence needs to be put in place.

To be honest, if all antifa is screamed and yelled, and whined about their point of view, I wouldn't give a shit. However everytime they show up, or people wearing their shirts and waving their flags, they always seem to cause problems.

 

[MrWhyt]

I never said that. I said you don't think its an issue.

Saying that they don't qualify as a terrorist group isn't the same thing as saying they're not an issue.

 

[ArmyRick]

Saying that they don't qualify as a terrorist group isn't the same thing as saying they're not an issue.

Fair enough.

 

[brihard]

Interesting. Didn't know.

Yup. We have criminal organization laws and offences, but that’s determined case by case in individual prosecutions.

I never said that. I said you don't think its an issue (Question). You do realize we can petition parliament to introduce new laws. I realize you could easily charge individuals threatening, assaulting, brandishing weapons, etc.

Yeah. So, suggesting I don’t think assaults or threats are an issue seems like a hell of a leap on your part. I’ve arrested and charged plenty of people for both of those offences. There are other criminal offences in play too in what you describe. None of them require an overall group to be proscribed in order to hold individuals accountable for criminal behaviour.

 

[ArmyRick]

Yup. We have criminal organization laws and offences, but that’s determined case by case in individual prosecutions.


Yeah. So, suggesting I don’t think assaults or threats are an issue seems like a hell of a leap on your part. I’ve arrested and charged plenty of people for both of those offences. There are other criminal offences in play too in what you describe. None of them require an overall group to be proscribed in order to hold individuals accountable for criminal behaviour.

Now, I have a serious question, how do we know antifa is not organized? Not in communication with something similar to chapters? Is that proven or not proven? They seem to have a code or set of guidelines to go by.

Back to what we are talking about just now. I KNOW you and other police charge each person you can (I hope) with crimes, so you don't think antifa is an issue needing higher investigation or research? When problems surface over and over again, generally we need to address the root cause of these issues. If we don't tackle them, at a further root cause, then antifa type groups will pop up again and again, and you police officers will be busy monitoring and policing these protest/demonstrations.

If you don't know of a way to tackle this problem, maybe beyond criminal laws, no suggestions?

Lets use the narcotics problem in Canada. The nation has a criminal law enforcement side to it, but other ways to address the problem as well.

My first thought, start looking at why antifa recruits almost entirely from university campuses.

 

[brihard]

Now, I have a serious question, how do we know antifa is not organized? Not in communication with something similar to chapters? Is that proven or not proven? They seem to have a code or set of guidelines to go by.

Back to what we are talking about just now. I KNOW you and other police charge each person you can (I hope) with crimes, so you don't think antifa is an issue needing higher investigation or research? When problems surface over and over again, generally we need to address the root cause of these issues. If we don't tackle them, at a further root cause, then antifa type groups will pop up again and again, and you police officers will be busy monitoring and policing these protest/demonstrations.

If you don't know of a way to tackle this problem, maybe beyond criminal laws, no suggestions?

Lets use the narcotics problem in Canada. The nation has a criminal law enforcement side to it, but other ways to address the problem as well.

My first thought, start looking at why antifa recruits almost entirely from university campuses.

I apologize Rick, some of my work takes me beyond what’s open source on some of what we’re talking about, so I need to step back from this part to avoid flying too close to the sun.

 

[KevinB]

Could conspiracy charges be leveled under Canadian law to those who participate in organized demonstrations? The mass of some demonstrations provide cover for a lot of more serious issues and as such effectively enable those who torch government buildings and LE vehicles (and toss Molotov’s at LEO’s).

To me extremists who violate laws on any side of a conflict need to be taken to task.

 

[Lumber]

As usual, the "antifa" activist out to attack anyone with a different view. Hate democracy?

I think it is time to list these guys as terrorist

Ironically, antifa is the most fascist organization I can think of.

So, I'm certain your feelings on this are based on more then what happened this weekend, but since what happened this weekend in Toronto (and Halifax) is apparently the straw that caused you to want to post here, I'll address it specifically.

By recommending that Antifa be branded as a terrorist organization, you are implying that "their" actions this weekend were indicative of a terrorist organization. Did you watch the same videos I did? Did you see the same videos on instagram and facebook I did? Where was the terrorist activity?

There have been 10 arrests so far due to "clashes". But very little details about who was arrested or why. Was in the protestors or the counter-protestors? If both, who started each "clash"? Were they arrested for violent assault, or just behaviour that was disturbing the peace?

The counter protestors outnumbered the Canada First protestors 10 to 1, and the counter-protestors brought an Ice Cream truck, music, and had people running children’s activities.

Sounds VERY much like terrorism. Bloody sundae fascists...

 

[markppcli]

Let me ask, is antifa a problem? Yes or no? They have appeared at numerous demonstrations and protest, quite often causing violence and physical harm, for decades now.

This to you is not a problem?

I disagree with you and Brihard BTW. I think they should be listed as a hate or very least criminal organization.

I guess the real question is what is antifa. I have to see any actual evidence, beyond some new services reporting all left wing protestors as antifa, that anything resembling an organized group called Antifa exists.

 

[ArmyRick]

So, I'm certain your feelings on this are based on more then what happened this weekend, but since what happened this weekend

If you were FB friends with me, you would see many post over the last decade on my thoughts on this issue.

I know 2 openly antifa members from Alberta (not military at all, they think the CAF is a fascist organization), and over many dialogues with them (we discussed economy, farming, livestock management, feeding a nation, etc), I was convinced, nope, off the deep end (I got many of their points but felt like their actions were like using a shotgun to kill a fly). When they harassed some female friends of mine (one for being openly christian), I stepped in to have a "strong discussion" about not getting in people's faces.

 

[ArmyRick]

To some of you, I will remind you the trucker convoy was way less violent and had bouncy castles, etc.

Maybe they should have worn black, covered their faces with mask and painted antifa on their trucks that way, you guys could pretend it was not an issue.

 

[ArmyRick]

I guess the real question is what is antifa

Start with a google search. Then get come back to the conversation. Antifa is a real movement, I can assure you.

 

[brihard]

To some of you, I will remind you the trucker convoy was way less violent and had bouncy castles, etc.

Maybe they should have worn black, covered their faces with mask and painted antifa on their trucks that way, you guys could pretend it was not an issue.

Who here is describing any criminality under existing laws as ‘not an issue’?

 

[ArmyRick]

Who here is describing any criminality under existing laws as ‘not an issue’?

Did you watch the same videos I did? Did you see the same videos on instagram and facebook I did?

The counter protestors outnumbered the Canada First protestors 10 to 1, and the counter-protestors brought an Ice Cream truck, music, and had people running children’s activities.

Lumber, Did you watch the videos? Punching people in the head for being "Canada First" and one of their lead demonstrators yelling "one to the neck", want to keep playing stupid?

Brihard, have a view of what Lumber said.

Pretending a problem isn't there is akin to ignoring that growing lump in your armpit that turns out to be cancer.

It cracks me up, when people are like "they are just expressing their views" yeah by belting people in the head. Not the first time.