J
jollyjacktar
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Abdullah, thank you for taking the time to present your thoughts.
Islam and Western Society
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Can we sticky that post? Excellent!
W601
W601
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Long time lurker, but rare poster here - I usually don't post much because I don't have a whole lot to say that hasn't been said ad-nauseam already.
I just wanted to say, first off, thanks for the post, Abdullah. I've been studying terrorism and counter terrorism through academia as a hobby for the last 4 years, and as a result I am attempting to understand more and more about the true nature of Islam since these are often synonymous. The western world NEEDS to engage in frank and open discussions on the topic for a number of reasons which might seem obvious, the least of which being that non-Muslims must be able to discern truth from fiction. As a non-Muslim, I often advise other non-Muslims to educate themselves as much as possible on the topic, taking in opinions from all camps and coming to their own conclusions. Islam, in and of itself, does not deserve the benefit of the doubt - no more so than anything else people see or hear - and thus what they are told by any side should not be taken at face value - what I mean by this is that people need to become more aware and informed. Ironically, the very people who stand to lose the most, yet have the most to gain from having these sorts discussion (and working towards a reformation of Islam) is the average Muslim person, working to get through the day and who has the same problems as the rest of us.
I found a very topical article discussing such a thing. Although it has more of an American slant to it, I thought I might share it here:
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7364/trump-ban-muslims
I just wanted to say, first off, thanks for the post, Abdullah. I've been studying terrorism and counter terrorism through academia as a hobby for the last 4 years, and as a result I am attempting to understand more and more about the true nature of Islam since these are often synonymous. The western world NEEDS to engage in frank and open discussions on the topic for a number of reasons which might seem obvious, the least of which being that non-Muslims must be able to discern truth from fiction. As a non-Muslim, I often advise other non-Muslims to educate themselves as much as possible on the topic, taking in opinions from all camps and coming to their own conclusions. Islam, in and of itself, does not deserve the benefit of the doubt - no more so than anything else people see or hear - and thus what they are told by any side should not be taken at face value - what I mean by this is that people need to become more aware and informed. Ironically, the very people who stand to lose the most, yet have the most to gain from having these sorts discussion (and working towards a reformation of Islam) is the average Muslim person, working to get through the day and who has the same problems as the rest of us.
I found a very topical article discussing such a thing. Although it has more of an American slant to it, I thought I might share it here:
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7364/trump-ban-muslims
ArmyRick
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AbdullahD,
Good insightful post. I have on my own studied the history and basic understandings of Islam. I find it interesting the strong differences between Shia and Sunni . It gets nasty when you look at the fierce fighting between the two. I also know their is an Indian sect of Islam (Ahmadiyya Islam? I think).
Another interesting view I have is That Muslims are from Christians are from Jews. If I am not mistaken, the second book of the Quran is basically the new testament. I believe if I understand correctly that the prophet Esa (is Jesus) and that muslims do not believe he is the son of God but will in fact return some day. Correct me if I am wrong, many hours of reading translated passages of the Quran can lead me to mistakes.
Ironic that these religions are intertwined and connected.
The head covering thing (Niqab, Burkha, Hijab, etc) I personally believe was more of a survival thing from living in an hot arid climate. IF we had a time machine and could go back to a thousand years before Mohhamed, we would probably see people wearing similar clothes in the same environment. Thoughts?
Personally, I believe the one thing we have done correctly is the Charter of Rights and freedoms here in Canada. Religion and state must remain separate. I also believe corporation and state should also be separate but thats another story.
Good insightful post. I have on my own studied the history and basic understandings of Islam. I find it interesting the strong differences between Shia and Sunni . It gets nasty when you look at the fierce fighting between the two. I also know their is an Indian sect of Islam (Ahmadiyya Islam? I think).
Another interesting view I have is That Muslims are from Christians are from Jews. If I am not mistaken, the second book of the Quran is basically the new testament. I believe if I understand correctly that the prophet Esa (is Jesus) and that muslims do not believe he is the son of God but will in fact return some day. Correct me if I am wrong, many hours of reading translated passages of the Quran can lead me to mistakes.
Ironic that these religions are intertwined and connected.
The head covering thing (Niqab, Burkha, Hijab, etc) I personally believe was more of a survival thing from living in an hot arid climate. IF we had a time machine and could go back to a thousand years before Mohhamed, we would probably see people wearing similar clothes in the same environment. Thoughts?
Personally, I believe the one thing we have done correctly is the Charter of Rights and freedoms here in Canada. Religion and state must remain separate. I also believe corporation and state should also be separate but thats another story.
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S.M.A. said:
How did we end up with so many idiots teaching our kids? :facepalm:
Journeyman
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All related searches say it's in the UK. Where did you get Saskatchewan from?S.M.A. said:
Thanks guys and I'll try to give another reply albeit some very in depth things were brought up, which sad to say are above my pay grade to explain.. but i will try. I actually had to bust out a notebook to jot some notes down, so i can properly reply.
I have heard of Islam and Terrorism being synonymous before and I whole heartedly disagree that they are, but that doesn't mean Islam is not used for terrorism. Now if we take a look at what terrorism means, it essentially means to use fear to obtain a goal. Which I hate to say it, but some "so called" Muslims use that ideology. But we are not alone in it, people who shoot up Planned parenthood outlets are terrorists, same with school shooters etc etc
But when you see these acts in the media (as unbiased as it is), a guy claiming to be christian who shoots up a planned parenthood clinic is labelled mentally sick. Same with churches, schools etc. I think that terrorism is perpetrated by all groups be they extremist sikhs, hindus, jews etc. but rarely are they called terrorist.
we have 1.7 to 1.8 billion Muslims in the world and there are terrorist organization's that recruit from those masses. If we look at Muslim countries, most of them are poor and what better people to recruit then poor ignorant peasants? the recruitment of disaffected westerners is a different issue all together, I also note at this time most recruits are not western citizens. Now in WW1 and WW2, the Muslim nation('s) picked the wrong side, which led to the break up of the Islamic empire which accelerated the rot, because Nationalism really set in. Muslims are not supposed to want separate countries, were supposed to want to be one Ummah (Nation).. but alas to many years of my tribe is better then your tribe have gone by, that I can't see this rot reversing in my life. oops i digress.
Anyways, back to the poor and ignorant Muslims. You get some alleged scholar come to your home, after a western bomb has blown up your home or a family members, or a friends home and tells you that the non-Muslims are waging war on Muslims around the world. they are trying to destroy Islam and then he quotes a few ayahs from the Quran, a few hadiths about it being obligatory to fight against those who are fighting Muslims and the next thing you know, that peasent is a Jihadi. Then from there they quote more Ahadiths about dying in the cause of Allah and how Mujahideen of old would press in to thick of the battle, until victorious or they died. Then he gives you nice tafsir (explanation) that makes suicide bombing permissible because thats what the Salaf did.... and you have yourself a suicide bomber.
Now if you don't know, I completely disagree with this and denounce it whole heartedly. But it is a sad fact of life, just the same as the fact that many think Islam and terrorism are synonymous. I pray that perception changes, but that is up to god. To many kids only know fighting, grew up fighting and dont know anything else... so it is hard for them to change, because killing is so easy. Which has become a vicious cycle, we need to stop the bombs, so we can rebuild these nations and yet the more we bomb, the worse it seems to get and we need to send more bombs (Not even touching on corruption etc). I am not intelligent enough to see how to break the cycle, but I agree Daesh needs to be put down like a rabid dog.
I perused the link that was offered regarding trumps comments and I disagree with quite a many things within it, but I dont have the time nor werewithal to articulate a counter arguement. I am sure google if used can do it for me, but I dont trust my google fu right now, also on my phone copy pasting etc is hard. Im currently doing this as an email draft then ill be copying it over to this site.
Now the second thing of note I saw was the Shia vs Sunni vs Ahmadiyya deal, that rabbit hole goes even deeper... you Have Shia vs Sunni vs Ahmadiyya, hanafi vs hanbali vs maliki vs shafi vs salafi, deobandi vs bralevi, tablighis vs salafis vs sufis vs takfiris... To be honest it is a right mess. To keep it simple I just go Muslim or non Muslim (even though im a Sunni Hanafi deobandi tablighi lol).
So to be a Muslim you have to accept the 5 pillars of Islam;
1-Shahada: Faith
2 Salat: Prayer.
3 Zakāt: Charity.
4 Sawm: Fasting.
5 Hajj: Pilgrimage to Mecca.
So if you dont believe those 5 things are obligatory, you are not a Muslim period. Now I'll also note, if you believe those acts are obligatory but do not do them yourself, you are still Muslim. Now that isn't to say whatever you believe isn't a nice wholesome belief system, it just isnt an Islamic belief system. The scholars I follow say that there are alot of shias who are Muslim, but the way hatred develops we label them non-Muslim which is very bad. Because according to ahadiths (close to the meaning), if you call a Muslim a kafr and your wrong you have left the fold of Islam yourself.... so these fools running around calling Muslims kafr, are well in a very sketchy situation. Then you also have the ahadiths that roughly mean if you kill a Muslim, your going to hell, end of story. Heck, we are even told not to point weapons at our Muslim brothers just in case something goes wrong and we accidently kill them, even that is bad for us. So you can only imagine the position of those who make a career of killing innocent Muslims.
So all said and done, I would hate to be any of those people who have killed a Muslim. all in all I'm one those chaps who thinks all wars are stupid wastes of lives, but sometimes it is necessary, just like spanking the kids sometimes you have to do it to set them aright.
Now regarding the second book of the Quran, I have no clue what your talking about im sorry. I am guessing your talking about Makkan vs Madanian verses... but even that does not mean different books because they are all mixed together... are you meaning Hadith volumes? or the Quran as one books and the Hadiths as another? Sorry, im lost on this one.
The Hijab is compulsory, it was not set out for the arab climate. The hijab is a guideline on how to dress not a uniform. My wife when she wears hijab, may use a traditional hijab or she may just use a hoody or what have you. Our women are our Queens, we have to pay for their food, clothing, shelter, if we have money left over and they want jewelry we HAVE TO buy it for them, if our WOMEN want relations with us we have to give it (and if we dont satisfy them, they can divorce us over it. ouch eh?). Paradise is at our Mothers feet, we are to obey our mothers 3x, before we obey our father's. oh did i mention, our women are allowed to own businesses, property and whatever money they make we can not take from them. even if they are millionaires we still have to pay the bills (also education is fine for women to get, if any idiot says otherwise ask them about Ayesha the prophets wife... that should shut them up, she was a pretty awesome lady).
Also something everybody forget when discussing Hijab... is men have one too. Muslim men must have beards, must always cover the knees up to the navel. It is better to cover the arms as well and keep hair abover the shoulders, we are encouraged not to wear red. encouraged to wear white etc etc etc. I find it amazing how these idiots always point out how the woman should act, but never look to the men.
That article about forcing kids to write what it would be like to convert to Islam, that was sheer stupidity. There are other ways to get the kids to think about the good parts of Islam, if my child came home with homework being for them to write about converting to Christianity... well we can just say id be pissed. So I can appreciate how others feel in this situation, it seems like the more knowledge that is out there, the less common sense we have.
Now I've been working on this for 2 hours, I just wanted to clarify a few things and got carried away. Trying to be part of the solution and not the problem, well its a lot of work some days. Usually on the internet I wouldnt waste time like this. my final thing I want to say is i worked 12 hours today and may have made some mistakes ill try to review and edit tomorrow if i see anything major.
Abdullah
I have heard of Islam and Terrorism being synonymous before and I whole heartedly disagree that they are, but that doesn't mean Islam is not used for terrorism. Now if we take a look at what terrorism means, it essentially means to use fear to obtain a goal. Which I hate to say it, but some "so called" Muslims use that ideology. But we are not alone in it, people who shoot up Planned parenthood outlets are terrorists, same with school shooters etc etc
But when you see these acts in the media (as unbiased as it is), a guy claiming to be christian who shoots up a planned parenthood clinic is labelled mentally sick. Same with churches, schools etc. I think that terrorism is perpetrated by all groups be they extremist sikhs, hindus, jews etc. but rarely are they called terrorist.
we have 1.7 to 1.8 billion Muslims in the world and there are terrorist organization's that recruit from those masses. If we look at Muslim countries, most of them are poor and what better people to recruit then poor ignorant peasants? the recruitment of disaffected westerners is a different issue all together, I also note at this time most recruits are not western citizens. Now in WW1 and WW2, the Muslim nation('s) picked the wrong side, which led to the break up of the Islamic empire which accelerated the rot, because Nationalism really set in. Muslims are not supposed to want separate countries, were supposed to want to be one Ummah (Nation).. but alas to many years of my tribe is better then your tribe have gone by, that I can't see this rot reversing in my life. oops i digress.
Anyways, back to the poor and ignorant Muslims. You get some alleged scholar come to your home, after a western bomb has blown up your home or a family members, or a friends home and tells you that the non-Muslims are waging war on Muslims around the world. they are trying to destroy Islam and then he quotes a few ayahs from the Quran, a few hadiths about it being obligatory to fight against those who are fighting Muslims and the next thing you know, that peasent is a Jihadi. Then from there they quote more Ahadiths about dying in the cause of Allah and how Mujahideen of old would press in to thick of the battle, until victorious or they died. Then he gives you nice tafsir (explanation) that makes suicide bombing permissible because thats what the Salaf did.... and you have yourself a suicide bomber.
Now if you don't know, I completely disagree with this and denounce it whole heartedly. But it is a sad fact of life, just the same as the fact that many think Islam and terrorism are synonymous. I pray that perception changes, but that is up to god. To many kids only know fighting, grew up fighting and dont know anything else... so it is hard for them to change, because killing is so easy. Which has become a vicious cycle, we need to stop the bombs, so we can rebuild these nations and yet the more we bomb, the worse it seems to get and we need to send more bombs (Not even touching on corruption etc). I am not intelligent enough to see how to break the cycle, but I agree Daesh needs to be put down like a rabid dog.
I perused the link that was offered regarding trumps comments and I disagree with quite a many things within it, but I dont have the time nor werewithal to articulate a counter arguement. I am sure google if used can do it for me, but I dont trust my google fu right now, also on my phone copy pasting etc is hard. Im currently doing this as an email draft then ill be copying it over to this site.
Now the second thing of note I saw was the Shia vs Sunni vs Ahmadiyya deal, that rabbit hole goes even deeper... you Have Shia vs Sunni vs Ahmadiyya, hanafi vs hanbali vs maliki vs shafi vs salafi, deobandi vs bralevi, tablighis vs salafis vs sufis vs takfiris... To be honest it is a right mess. To keep it simple I just go Muslim or non Muslim (even though im a Sunni Hanafi deobandi tablighi lol).
So to be a Muslim you have to accept the 5 pillars of Islam;
1-Shahada: Faith
2 Salat: Prayer.
3 Zakāt: Charity.
4 Sawm: Fasting.
5 Hajj: Pilgrimage to Mecca.
So if you dont believe those 5 things are obligatory, you are not a Muslim period. Now I'll also note, if you believe those acts are obligatory but do not do them yourself, you are still Muslim. Now that isn't to say whatever you believe isn't a nice wholesome belief system, it just isnt an Islamic belief system. The scholars I follow say that there are alot of shias who are Muslim, but the way hatred develops we label them non-Muslim which is very bad. Because according to ahadiths (close to the meaning), if you call a Muslim a kafr and your wrong you have left the fold of Islam yourself.... so these fools running around calling Muslims kafr, are well in a very sketchy situation. Then you also have the ahadiths that roughly mean if you kill a Muslim, your going to hell, end of story. Heck, we are even told not to point weapons at our Muslim brothers just in case something goes wrong and we accidently kill them, even that is bad for us. So you can only imagine the position of those who make a career of killing innocent Muslims.
So all said and done, I would hate to be any of those people who have killed a Muslim. all in all I'm one those chaps who thinks all wars are stupid wastes of lives, but sometimes it is necessary, just like spanking the kids sometimes you have to do it to set them aright.
Now regarding the second book of the Quran, I have no clue what your talking about im sorry. I am guessing your talking about Makkan vs Madanian verses... but even that does not mean different books because they are all mixed together... are you meaning Hadith volumes? or the Quran as one books and the Hadiths as another? Sorry, im lost on this one.
The Hijab is compulsory, it was not set out for the arab climate. The hijab is a guideline on how to dress not a uniform. My wife when she wears hijab, may use a traditional hijab or she may just use a hoody or what have you. Our women are our Queens, we have to pay for their food, clothing, shelter, if we have money left over and they want jewelry we HAVE TO buy it for them, if our WOMEN want relations with us we have to give it (and if we dont satisfy them, they can divorce us over it. ouch eh?). Paradise is at our Mothers feet, we are to obey our mothers 3x, before we obey our father's. oh did i mention, our women are allowed to own businesses, property and whatever money they make we can not take from them. even if they are millionaires we still have to pay the bills (also education is fine for women to get, if any idiot says otherwise ask them about Ayesha the prophets wife... that should shut them up, she was a pretty awesome lady).
Also something everybody forget when discussing Hijab... is men have one too. Muslim men must have beards, must always cover the knees up to the navel. It is better to cover the arms as well and keep hair abover the shoulders, we are encouraged not to wear red. encouraged to wear white etc etc etc. I find it amazing how these idiots always point out how the woman should act, but never look to the men.
That article about forcing kids to write what it would be like to convert to Islam, that was sheer stupidity. There are other ways to get the kids to think about the good parts of Islam, if my child came home with homework being for them to write about converting to Christianity... well we can just say id be pissed. So I can appreciate how others feel in this situation, it seems like the more knowledge that is out there, the less common sense we have.
Now I've been working on this for 2 hours, I just wanted to clarify a few things and got carried away. Trying to be part of the solution and not the problem, well its a lot of work some days. Usually on the internet I wouldnt waste time like this. my final thing I want to say is i worked 12 hours today and may have made some mistakes ill try to review and edit tomorrow if i see anything major.
Abdullah
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Abdullah, please do not consider your time spent on the Internet to write this as a 'waste', quite the opposite, and we appreciate the time you have taken to provide your perspective and knowledge of Islam.
Regards,
G2G
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What he said ...Good2Golf said:
J
jollyjacktar
Guest
Thank you again, Abdullah. More to contemplate and muse over.
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Notwithstanding the value of one person's insight, the following is true: religion is everywhere and always an artifact of culture; it does not stand alone or completely transcend the cultures in which it resides. There is no "true" version of any particular faith except in the immediate aftermath of its conception and the mind of its conceiver(s). Even scripture is not immune to contradiction and cultural quiffs, which is why there are always "learned" editorial comments - explanatory journalism - after the fact.
The problem is cultures in conflict; in particular, the problem is permissive and tolerant cultures in conflict with parochial and strict cultures.
Followers of Islam are the pre-eminent problem children of the world today; it is no help whatsoever for the silent and peaceful majority to try to read them out of the religion. There are many religions and sects younger than Islam which don't need more time to abolish violence.
No excuses are acceptable. A problem exists, and must be dealt with because it will not suffer to simply be ignored by those who want nothing to do with it. I do not visit responsibility on all those who claim to be Muslim nor even on those who silently agree with the supremacism of the violent fringe minority, but I despise attempts to pretend that the militants are not exactly what they claim to be.
The problem is cultures in conflict; in particular, the problem is permissive and tolerant cultures in conflict with parochial and strict cultures.
Followers of Islam are the pre-eminent problem children of the world today; it is no help whatsoever for the silent and peaceful majority to try to read them out of the religion. There are many religions and sects younger than Islam which don't need more time to abolish violence.
No excuses are acceptable. A problem exists, and must be dealt with because it will not suffer to simply be ignored by those who want nothing to do with it. I do not visit responsibility on all those who claim to be Muslim nor even on those who silently agree with the supremacism of the violent fringe minority, but I despise attempts to pretend that the militants are not exactly what they claim to be.
Brad Sallows said:
Just to clarify, a lot of what I posted was not my opinion. It was rough translations of what our prophet said, rulings by our religious scholars and accepted traditions.
If you wish to fact check my posts please use;
Mufti Menk (south africa)
Mufti Ebrahim Desai(south africa)
Shayk Yusuf badat (toronto)
Shayk abdulraheem (uk)
Mufti Abdurrahman (detroit)
Mufti Aasim (Surrey).
Websites are as follows
AskImam.org
http://www.tafseer-raheemi.com/
http://ihsan.ca
http://mathabah.org
Banglakitab.com
For the Quran tafsir download here
http://www.islamibayanaat.com/EnglishMarefulQuran.htm
Your views on how culture can not be seperated from religion, are your views and I feel no need to debate them. Following the links I supplied and searching through them will teach you about how the Quran, hadiths and Quranic teachings were preserved.
Extremists who do actions that take them outside the fold of Islam, are not Muslim. End of story. We dont deny that a problem exists, but you Must remember for every 1 non-Muslim killed by these fools, they kill 10's or hundreds of Muslims. Muslims are on the ground fighting them, Muslims are dying because of them. So to claim were doing nothing is wrong.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Muslims+denouncing+extremists
Anywho, thanks for the reply and the good words guys
Abdullah
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>Extremists who do actions that take them outside the fold of Islam, are not Muslim. End of story.
Wrong. You just disproved your own case. You have your interpretation of scripture and a subset of commentary you rely on; others have equally valid interpretations of scripture and subsets of commentary they rely on. There is no independent frame of reference which exists from which to issue a judgement; if one existed, I doubt you occupy it.
Culture can not be separated from religion; culture drives religion. The existence of the world as it is proves my point: Roman culture drove early Christianity. Medieval European cultures continued to drive Christianity. Modern cultures continue to drive Christianity. There are many different understandings of Christianity; to the extent that Christianity has moved between severe and generous interpretations, it has all been driven by culture. Similar observations can be applied to all religions. New religions are established from cultural foundations.
Wrong. You just disproved your own case. You have your interpretation of scripture and a subset of commentary you rely on; others have equally valid interpretations of scripture and subsets of commentary they rely on. There is no independent frame of reference which exists from which to issue a judgement; if one existed, I doubt you occupy it.
Culture can not be separated from religion; culture drives religion. The existence of the world as it is proves my point: Roman culture drove early Christianity. Medieval European cultures continued to drive Christianity. Modern cultures continue to drive Christianity. There are many different understandings of Christianity; to the extent that Christianity has moved between severe and generous interpretations, it has all been driven by culture. Similar observations can be applied to all religions. New religions are established from cultural foundations.
Brad Sallows said:
Dear Sir,
I must now remove myself from this conversation with you. I have provided links to information that debunks your allegations and I feel no need to replicate them here. especially since you do not take the time to look at the information I provide and refine your arguments.
I do thank you though, you did inspire me to list multiple sources backing up my argument. Which Is something I should have done off the bat.
Thanks for reading my replys
Abdullah
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Brad Sallows said:
Good post, Brad. I was going to rebut this exact point but you summed it up in a much better fashion.
AbdullahD. I really do appreciate your insight and edification for people like myself that have a sketchy knowledge of the Muslim faith. However, for you to deny that extremists that profess to be Muslim are not so or do not themselves believe this would be the same as me to deny that extremist Christian nutbars do not believe themselves to be following the Christian faith.
Jed said:
I do understand how this looks to be a conundrum, from the outside at least. But many Ahadiths, establish what does and does not take a person outside the fold of Islam.
The extremists use the same Hadith collections non-extremist use, so the argument that they have different texts does not hold and then its just looking in those texts for proofs.
As I said, follow the links and do some research. Find out which traditional scholars they follow and then research the positions of those scholars on what takes a person out of the fold of Islam. I'll make it easy for you, the traditional scholars they claim to follow would call a lot of them non-Muslims.
So if people you claim to follow would claim your not of them, how can you claim to be? also if 99% of the Islamic world claims they are wrong, isnt that acceptable? I dont think extremist atheists, christians etc represent the respective ideologies they claim to follow. So why are extremist representative of Muslims.
Please research, learn Islam from Muslims. Follow those links, they are a great starting point.
Abdullah
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AbdullahD said:
I agree with you on this point. The problem is when any particular individual looks at a cat and says no, it is a dog or the cat truly believes that it is, in fact, a dog; That does not make the being a cat. It matters not if the cat was a tiger, lion, siamese etc. It does not even matter if an individual considers itself to be a doberman, pug or a boxer.
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