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Islam and Western Society

rw4th said:
The bottom line for me is simple: I have NOT heard a broad denunciation of the actions of terrorists by Muslims, either internationally or from those around me.

When was the last time that you heard a Christian "around you" apologise for or denounce terrorists on either side of the conflict in Northern Ireland?  Or for Christian arrogance in the handling of aboriginal peoples around the world?

Islam, like Christianity, is not a monolith.
 
PPCLI Guy said:
When was the last time that you heard a Christian "around you" apologise for or denounce terrorists on either side of the conflict in Northern Ireland? Or for Christian arrogance in the handling of aboriginal peoples around the world?

Islam, like Christianity, is not a monolith.

Bravo PPCLI Guy. On that note, when are the Roman Catholic Church of Croatia and the Serb Orthodox Church going to apologize for the hideous actions carried out by their co-religionists? Cheers.
 
As a note, I changed the name of this thread.  "Eradication of Islam" seemed to do no justice to the level of the conversation that has been going on here.

As an aside, some Muslims feel that  R4W is correct to some degree with the fact that their is tacit acquiescence to extremism in mainstream Islamic sub-cultures.  A perfect example would be the fact that many, high profile Imams openly preach hatred and destruction in urban Mosques in many Western cities.  Although Manji's opinions are controversial and debateable (and some may question her motives as she is a lesbian feminist, which she openly admits in her book), she does bring a fresh look to the idea.

http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/item.asp?Item=978067931250&Catalog=Books&N=35&Lang=en&Section=books&zxac=1
 
Also I'm going to go out on a limb and say that since the majority of Muslims aren't actually Arab, if you're standing at the airport looking for the next Arab/Muslim Terrorist you're probably going to miss all of the Indonesian, black and white Muslims who walk by.

Why are they not being turned in? Why can they so easily hide amongst the Islamic community? Why don't the people around them turn on them?

In general the people that are inclined to militancy are not of the mainstream Muslim mosques rather they keep to themselves and when the time comes to identify who they are, it's assumed that they are part of the closest mosque to them.

Also I wouldn't assume that everybody knows a terrorist they could be turning in...there's no 6 degrees of seperation in the Muslim community however small it may be. The majority(like 99%) of Muslims in the ummah are outraged by terror tactics as well, and will openly denounce it as I have previously posted but no one particularly cares what the peaceful ones have to say as they don't sell advertising spots.

And I restate my belief that terrorists are terrorists in Spite of Islam rather than because of it. etc. etc.
 
PPCLI guy and pbi, in principle I agree with both of you. However this isn't a game of â Å“who's hasn't done bad thingsâ ?; every culture has its skeletons. If you want to include bad organizations that claim Christian values, you'd also have to include the KKK and most white supremacist as well. And for the record, while it may have sounded like it I do not lob all Muslims together.

What is happening right now in the world isn't new. It's a clash of cultures that has been going on for centuries. Parts of the Muslim world believe that the entire world must convert to Islam or die and that anything less is an insult to god. It is not only â Å“a few bad applesâ ? either; this belief is wide spread enough that it is causing a global conflict.

some Muslims feel that  R4W is correct to some degree with the fact that their is tacit acquiescence to extremism in mainstream Islamic sub-cultures.

That is exactly one of my points, and one the biggest roadblocks to stopping the extremist. This  â Å“tacit acquiescenceâ ? gives the enemy a place to hide, and as long a those sub-cultures do not rise up, point the finger and say â Å“noâ ?, then they are complicit in the acts of the terrorist.

You could argue that the few bad apples are manipulating the masses and that they are perverting and using Islam to further their own claim to power. While this may be true, the fact is that the masses are complicit in the manipulation, and therefore equally to blame.

I see a lot of people around me pointing the finger at their own culture, and saying â Å“hey we've done bad things toâ ? as way of avoiding taking a stance on this issue; in fact, it's probably a very Canadian to do. Well, while it is true that â Å“weâ ? have done a lot of bad things, it does not make the threat to â Å“usâ ? and our way of life any less real.

What scares me about this issue is that I can't think of any solution to it. Appeasement and/or a â Å“let liveâ ? policy cannot work against a violent culture that has made statements to the effect that â Å“we will not stop until the entire world converts to the one true religion of Islamâ ?.
 
The majority(like 99%) of Muslims in the ummah are outraged by terror tactics as well
In what part of the world? I don't agree that %99 of the Muslims worldwide are outraged by the terror tactics used by extremist. If this were true, the conflict against Islamic Extremist would already be over.

Also I'm going to go out on a limb and say that since the majority of Muslims aren't actually Arab, if you're standing at the airport looking for the next Arab/Muslim Terrorist you're probably going to miss all of the Indonesian, black and white Muslims who walk by.

I agree with you. My comments about profiling concerned more race then religion and the potential combination thereof. I do believe that these 2 should make up part of an effective screening system. They should be only part of the picture, but they are 2 very important indicators of potential threat. The problem is that in our overly correct society we have made using these 2 pieces of information practically illegal. A white elderly lady from Toronto, traveling on a Canadian passport who has never been outside North America is screened the same way an Arab male in his mid twenties, who is traveling on a Syrian passport, and who has traveled to several threat countries.

 
A white elderly lady from Toronto, traveling on a Canadian passport who has never been outside North America is screened the same way an Arab male in his mid twenties, who is traveling on a Syrian passport, and who has traveled to several threat countries.

Well you didn't particularly specify that and I would agree with you on that.
My only issue with racial screening is when it conflicts with the rights and freedoms of Canadian citizens as I have been witness to (and victim of) before. If they're detaining Syrian nationals or Saudia Arabian Nationals travelling by themselves than that's not race, that's nationality and playing the odds. You made it seem as though it were a race issue at first, which I most wholeheartedly disagree with.

My perctentage was exagerrated I'll give you that, but in the hearts and minds department, western countries are not doing well and it's mostly because of what I have maintained is an almost extreme lack of education about "the east"

It's been 200 years since the Brit's first called it "Orientalism" and there is still as much ignorance about the near east as there was then, and until this ignorance is cleared up, the terrorists will continue to use this divide between east and west as a means of recruiting more and more.

Screen everyone you can and you won't put a stop to it, that's like a bandaid where the permanent fix is education on both sides something that terrible leadership in every country in the world is doing nothing to fix. In fact the original title of this thread might reign true one day unless something is done to teach both sides about the realities that exist in foreign cultures.

There is no easy solution and I'm certain the conflict will be a long one but I doubt that trampling on the same rights and freedoms we are supposed to be protecting is going to be a viable solution. Maybe we've staring into the abyss a bit much?
 
As a sidenote on the screening at the airports issue, all of the terrorists who came through Canada would have made it through legally were they subjected to the current heightened restrictions.  So really, is racially/nationally profiliing those coming through our borders really going to stop anything?
We're catching a lot more people smuggling material goods (ie clothing, electronics, etc) to avoid taxes, (of all races & nationalities, I'm not singling anyone out there) but other than that, have we actually turned away anyone who was a suspected terrorist?  If so, I haven't heard about it...  (And if we have, please link the information so I can correct myself, thanks)

T
 
This thread has some very interesting information, and some very good posts by many (IMHO). I would like to add my points to the discussion.

The current trend of terrorism is being committed by primarily Muslims, and the majority of these Muslims are of Arab descent/ethnicity. The really important point to me, however, is that it is the culture in a lot of primarily Muslim states that is conducive to accepting terror as a means of furthering one's cause (whether legitimate or not), but NOT THE RELIGION ITSELF. In a lot of these cultures, religion is more central to the fabric of society than it is in the West, so it is difficult for us to separate their religion and their culture, and even more difficult for them, I'd imagine. However, that does not mean that the religion is the source of the terror.

The terrorists have been successful in convincing the west that it is engaging in terror due to their religious beliefs. We must learn to separate Muslim/Arabic culture and Islam. Islam (correct me if I'm wrong Che) strictly forbids killing others, with some very strict exceptions (none of which apply to any current situation).

A long time ago, I had a friend who was Muslim (originally from Iran), and I was surprised to learn 2 things regarding Islam: 1)-that the Christian God (the 'Father' in the Trinity) is the same god of Islam. 2)- When asked for help, the Koran states a Muslim must provide help, regardless of their personal feelings towards the person. Re: Islam/Christian God:my point is that our religions are closely linked. Re:point #2- it appears as if the Koran wished it's followers to help and be kind to others, regardless of the follower's opinion of them.

Terrorists committing terror in the name of Allah are 'hijacking' Islam (I heard that somewhere). They use the label to add legitimacy to acts that are reprehensible to almost all people, in all nations, of all religions, of all ethnic backgrounds, and of all socio-economic classes.

Some unsolicited advice:The next time you hear of an act of terror committed in the name of Islam, think of them not as 'Islamic Terrorists', but simply as Terrorists. Islam has next to nothing to do with it.
 
Islam does have something to do with it.   Just because we find the actions of those who kill in the name of religion abhorrent, we cannot denigrate or reduce the role that spirituality plays upon their psyche.

By saying that the Crusaders were not "true Christians" and merely burned the Holy Land down in search of plunder and glory misses out on the fact that there was a very important spiritual motivation coming from the Holy See.   Just because these motivations were mixed in with other, more worldly aspects does not render them irrelevant.

Religion is what people and societies choose to make of it (ie: it does not exist in a vacuum).   It is a social construct that deals with the place of Man (and society) within the greater universe.   Islam for a good man who gives to his community out of piety is no different then Islam which acts to arms the mind of a man to commit violence on behalf of his ideals - they are both a form of spiritual motivation that acts as a reinforcement for behaviour and delving into the common root of both is key for understanding our friends and our enemies.
 
Religion is what people and societies choose to make of it

Exactly, as I've said, you find in religion what you want.

And yes Caesar you're also right regarding what you said concerning Islam, in it's purest form it is quite beautiful yet quite simple in its logic, but I'm trying not to preach as much as possible here.

Religion isn't irrelevant at all in the current situation. However the best way to look at it is that they're terrorists in spite of Islam, not because of it.  I'd say the jury is still very much out concerning the merits of racial profiling.
 
This article will probably stir up some interesting discussion. I don't necessarily agree with everything in it, but I do agree that there now seems to be an "every religion but christianity" double standard prelevant in our society.

http://www.michnews.com/artman/publish/article_6378.shtml

With all the laws in place in this nation concerning Hate Crimes, it amazes me that we allow Islam to not only be practiced in this nation, but we allow it in our school systems.

We have recently seen 4 Christian protestors arrested for carrying scriptural signs against homosexuals. We see anything that resembles inflammatory speech shut down and legally dealt with whether it comes from Nazis, KKK members, Aryans, White Supremacists, etc.

A hate crime can be committed either by speech or action in this nation. Yet we allow the influx of a religion that espouses hatred and slaughter wholesale worldwide and the authority they claim to behave as such comes straight from their Quran.

90%-95% OF ALL THE CONFLICTS ON THIS PLANET TODAY INVOLVE MUSLIMS FIGHTING NON-MUSLIMS OR EACH OTHER!

Now I have heard all the arguments by those who consider themselves â Å“peacefulâ ? Muslims. I have also read the Quran and seen the abominations written therein and the criminal acts espoused and commanded throughout the writings.

We see the atrocities committed against Christians in several African nations, Egyptian Copts, Jordanian Christians, Iraqi Christians, Eastern Europe, the Netherlands, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, the Philippines, and Indonesia.

We see the enslavement of mostly Africans, and the genocides in Sudan. We can walk through the Middle East and see how many slaves are performing domestic duties for their Arab masters. Any yet, all I hear in America is how peaceful this religion is.

They might be more apt to being peaceful in America due to our freedom and laws that would not tolerate such criminal behavior. But given enough time and the pouring in of Islamic immigrants, I believe this will change. Take a look at the town, Hamtramck, in Michigan that allows them to publicly announce prayer over loud speakers. Yet Christians cannot even walk with protest signs without fear of being arrested. Why are we so tolerant of a religion that is basically not a indigenous religion? Any why are we so tolerant of a religion that espouses such violent behavior and acts of cruelty?

I recently saw a report with Muhammad Hisham Kabbani of the Islamic Supreme Council of America. In Kabbani's reliable estimation, such "extremists" have "taken over 80 percent of the mosques" in the United States. And not just the mosques: schools, youth groups, community centers, political organizations, professional associations, and commercial enterprises also tend to share a militant outlook, hostile to the present non-militant Islamic society in this nation.

We also see the CAIR organization coming out with some questionable comments. Take a look at some of these:

At the Islamic Association of Palestine's third annual convention in Chicago in November 1999, CAIR President Omar Ahmad gave a speech at a youth session praising suicide bombers who "kill themselves for Islam." "Fighting for freedom, fighting for Islam â ” that is not suicide. They kill themselves for Islamâ Å“, he said.

â Å“Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.â ?

This was the statement of Omar M. Ahmad, the Chairman of the Board of the Council on American-Islamic Relations or CAIR, at an Islamic conference held in Freemont, California, in July of 1998.

We see that at least 80% of all mosques in America are led by militant clerics who preach violence against America and her allies. Not only is this a hate crime in and of itself, it is inflammatory and treasonous. So why are we not treating this as a treasonous entity? Even something such as the Nation of Islam, how can one actually claim to be a separate nation within a sovereign nation without being treated as treasonous?

We see that in many areas of the globe, any time a Islamic entity becomes part of a society, they begin to contemplate how to force it into Islam. While in Australia I saw several cases of rape and other crimes committed against Australian women due to the fact that the Muslim males who assaulted them deemed them as whores and sluts because of the way they dressed. In one highly publicized case of rape, the mother of one of the rapists was astounded her son was even on trial, because after all, the Australian girl dressed like a slut and â Å“asked for itâ ?! They refuse to realize when they leave their own despotic nations and move into a non-Islamic society, that THEY are the foreigners and must adapt to that nations culture, not infuse and eventually dominate it.

Yet in the Philippines it is being done. Muslims moved into an area and refused to take orders from a Catholic government. Now they turn to murder, terror, rape, and general mayhem to be bale to get their own little piece of sovereignty. So how long fellow citizens, will it be before they attempt to do this in America?

When we hear leaders of CAIR and other Muslim organizations speaking of violence and cavorting with terror organizations, (though CAIR will dispute this, it has been shown they have and do), when will we see the agenda of global domination come to this nation full swing?

How much would we save in tax money if we simply outlawed this violent cult and called it for what it is? I don't care that there may be a handful of Muslims who do not subscribe to the violent nature of Mohammed and his writings. The fact remains that it commands and espouses violence and domination. So why do we allow it exist? And why do we allow it to be taught in our schools? If walking with a protest sign is a crime simply because the signs have scripture against homosexuality, why do we allow a cult that is commanded to dominate, kill, and enslave Christians, Jews, and anyone else they deem below their religious fantasy?

Are we prepared to fight them within our borders when they decide to assault our society? Are we prepared to watch our children grow up and fight our own soldiers in a perceived Islamic notion of martyrdom as did John Walker Lindh?

I say we should never allow it to become this strong. Not to even allow someone who calls for slavery, for murder, for complete and total domination. After all, they deem it necessary in Muslim nations to keep only Islam as religion and killing anyone who disagrees or practices differently. Why cannot we do this? I will never believe the framers of our Constitution ever meant freedom of religion to include any cult or philosophy that espoused such evil.

I could just as easily form my own religion that called upon the annihilation of Muslims, or Jews, or politicians, and could even use the exact Quranic versus to justify it. I also bet it would be shot down and outlawed as fast as it became public. Because it would be a hateful and violent cult, and therefore considered a dangerous entity.

I say we begin our own jihad against this abhorrent cult and get it out of society before it becomes the Trojan Horse it aspires to become.

They are within the gates of our society, and we should label them as Hate Group as well as eliminate their teachings from our schools. Unless they like our society and desire to abandon their Quran and public worship in replace of a religion that is not violent, these people should be held to the same standards as any other criminal who spews hatred and violence.

We will never be equal in the eyes of Islam. We will always be inferior and according to Quran, a prime candidate for domination by Islam. We will always be Infidels, we will always be their enemy.

So would any of us, knowing someone wanted us and our families dead, invite them to live in our spare bedroom? Of course not. But we as a society have done exactly that. We allow those who desire our death and enslavement to live next door. To participate in politics and in our educational system.

We have allowed the Spartans to come bearing gifts. Will we also close the gates behind us and watch them burn the city as we sleep?

Copyright by Pete Fisher

 
Abhorrent Cult?

The following is directed at the author of the article, which I know they will not read but still want out:
Replace the world Muslim with Black in that article and see how brilliant you feel for writing it.
You're making money off the cancers festering in society, and in the process convincing the thousands who read your articles that Muslims are trying to kill everyone, all Muslims?, and your MAKING LIFE VERY DIFFICULT FOR THE REST OF US.
I'm familiar with your writings Mr. Fisher and 99% of it is simply an attack (not discourse or debate) on Islam,  he's no better then Moore, Limbaugh, Tucker or any other pundit peddling an angle and as such he'll get the attention they get but with the same results, dumber readers.
Fuck off.

While I recognise that I've become the token Muslim on the board, I will no longer be answering for all Muslims everywhere I can't answer for the actions of Sheikh's with agendas and bombs, militant clerics and I wouldn't ask a black person to answer for the Black Panthers, ganster rap and I don't ask any White Christian's to answer for the Crusades, Timothy McVeigh, abortion clinic bombings etc.
Getting sick of trying to convince people that I'm not out for their destruction so if you'd like to believe I'm a sound pounding jihadi with my qur'an and AK, goooo for it.

rw4th,
I don't disagree with your feelings of a double-standard in society but to try and fix it doing the exact same thing we claim "they" are doing is only going to incite other problems. Sort of like Affirmative action, they identified the problem but attempted to fix it by creating another double standard.
While I agree, having come from Christian roots as well, that Christianity has been marginalized unfairly, the place the Mr. Fisher wants to take society is back to the 50's where everyone was good, white and Christian Americans and black people weren't allowed to live in the suburbs so this facade continued to exist in the minds of Americans everywhere.
Flash forward to race riots etc. and "Christian America" didn't work, would "Muslim America" work? No.
But that's where you find Peter Fisher's articles, amongst the many articles calling for a return to that in one way or another.
It's one thing to striive for an ideal in your country but to ignore the obvious differences in society is going land you with a melting pot about to boil over.
 
â Å“Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.â ?

I don't understand how this comment can be taken as unbelievable or unacceptable when the present American administration is pushing an agenda from the religious right that advocates strictly Christian values.  An article in today's issue of the Toronto Star noted the present policy of the Bush government in attempting to remove evolution from science text books and nation wide abstinence policies as a replacement for other birth control methods.  Is this not attempting to place Christian values and the bible as "the highest authority in America" ?
 
I don't agree with most of the tone or the content of the article, BUT the point I wanted to bring up with it is that people are using Islam, and the â Å“freedom of religionâ ? blanket as a cover to get away with what would otherwise be considered criminal and borderline and treasonous acts within our own borders and we seem completely powerless, and even unwilling, to stop them.

I'm a blond haired white guy and if I start an organization dedicated to the supremacy of Christianity and white men with slogans that read â Å“All Muslims must Die!â ? and â Å“All Blacks must be enslavedâ ? and other such bullshit, I will be shouted down and probably arrested.

But, if someone acting under the cover of Islam does the same sort of things, calling for the supremacy of Islam and Arabs while espousing such things as â Å“All Americans must die!â ? then that is somehow protected by freedom of religion and they are untouchable.

Something is broken there. In my opinion, both the situations I have described are unacceptable in our society and should not be tolerated.
 
the big problem with discusing religion is that religion is not Logical at all so you cant have a logical debate on it.



now looking at the conflicts of the world i see most as a class struggle more than a religious one
it just hapens that one religion is a higher class over another.
and if you believe that your better then someone else and you Holy book says you are its EZer to kill people.
or if your holey book says your suppose to be the better people on earth and your notyou feel mad and want to fight to get to your "rightfull place in the world"

also more often than not whenever you have people using Religion as a weapon to get people to fight, their is often someone who is "in charge" and gaining power. and its hard to question the comands of a man who talks to GOD.
thats my $0.02
 
Che, I'm actually curious of your opinion on this topic.   I've read two english translations of the Quran and was blown away at what I saw as an inherent racism which I was not expecting.   Can you comment on your perception of the anti-Jew edicts and whether or not you believe that perhaps those specific edicts should be removed from text?

Many thanks,



Matthew.    :salute:



 
The biggest problem I've noticed isn't the actualy texts, it's the people who are reading them and how they're told to read them.
You read through alot of religious material written around this time and there is anti-semitism, it's been the popular thing to do for thousands of years now too.
The story of Judas is perhaps the most interesting anti-semitic Christian story and it endures to today.
The people read through and they are told how to think about it rather then reading it for their own and taking the time to make sure they really understand it.
For instance, lad studies the Qur'an for a few years, thinks he knows it, reads it quite literally and goes out and does a great deal of moronic shyte.
People tend to focus on specifics rather then the big message and picture, which is very similar to the other 2 monothesims.

People will find what they are looking for in a religion's texts, be it love or hate, yet they all read the same texts.
It's what they are told to do with it and when they are told what it means rather then finding out for themselves and thinking about it.

I see Islam everywhere, I do not see many Muslims and that's the biggest problem.
 
The story of Judas is perhaps the most interesting anti-semitic Christian story and it endures to today

How the above becomes 'anti-semitic' is difficult to understand as Judism and Christianity are inseparably linked.  Hence, the only country that really supports the valiant little nation of Israel is the US.
 
LF(CMO) said:
The story of Judas is perhaps the most interesting anti-semitic Christian story and it endures to today

How the above becomes 'anti-semitic' is difficult to understand as Judism and Christianity are inseparably linked.   Hence, the only country that really supports the valiant little nation of Israel is the US.

The bible may not be anti-semitic, but it certainly does advocate murder for such "crimes" as homosexuality and bigamy.  No text of a major religion is perfect.  They all include passages which would be considered repulsive in modern society.  However, the basic tennants behind each of those religions are usualy quite benign.  They basically break down to something like "love your god and your fellow man" and "do unto others as you would have done onto you".  The Quaran is no different than the Bible in that respect.  The problem has always been the misrepresentation of theological beleifs by those who wish to amass wealth and power.  Thos types of people eist within every major faith, from Christianity, to Judaism, to Islam.
 
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