Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
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Oldgateboatdriver
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With the exception of course of that Muslim terrorist to be who was an Engineering student at the masters level in Montreal, but decided to collude to blow a train in Ontario - then refuse to recognize the courts of Canada, stating Allah and the Koran as sole proper authorities over him. Oh! And the two brothers who turned out to be the Boston bombers, who were college level educated in North America. And these College students here in Quebec that dropped everything to go fight for ISIS.
Etc. Etc.
It's not limited to the uneducated masses here in North America for those who turn against us. It is, however, confined to people who, for one reason or another actually and sincerely believe - for sure, sure, sure, in a god and all the crap put out by their religion as actually true, unlike the real 95% of human beings that don't really believe it's true but go along at least superficially, just in case, and mostly because it is by now (after millennia of being fooled by the priestly caste) the socially accepted norm and they don't like to stand out or disappoint their parents and grand-parents.
Etc. Etc.
It's not limited to the uneducated masses here in North America for those who turn against us. It is, however, confined to people who, for one reason or another actually and sincerely believe - for sure, sure, sure, in a god and all the crap put out by their religion as actually true, unlike the real 95% of human beings that don't really believe it's true but go along at least superficially, just in case, and mostly because it is by now (after millennia of being fooled by the priestly caste) the socially accepted norm and they don't like to stand out or disappoint their parents and grand-parents.
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Fair enough, I guess we could replace uneducated with gullible and foolish.
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I tried to allude to that above. Guess I missed. Anyway, as far as the Montreal engineer scenario. People want inclusion. They search around for someone that will accept them. The terrorist and activist imams, if contacted, will woo the person, fawn on him, make him part of the family, then start with the radicalization. So the engineer gets radicalized. Is he educated? Most assuredly, as an engineer. Perhaps though, not enough to see beyond his own vanity and insecurities and to accept being conned. There's tons of individual cases we cannot track or stop. However, those, in time, will become abhorrent and fringe if you can move the whole society towards civilization and it's rules. Right now, they are in what we used to call the middle age at the end of the dark ages, with all the same indoctrination and fealty and service to the church. And, as stated,the trouble in the main, is from tribal islamic culture. Not so much (but still appears) from westernized (for lack of a better word) islamists.
See I find on the internet it is very easy to come off more educated then I truly am. A few times I actually had to consult friends of mine who are Islamic scholars and I have asked a few to proof read my postings here making sure I do not mis represent anything, I enjoy our discussion here because you and others make me think and force me to legitimize my beliefs in a way. Yet what we have here are just discussions I am not interested in debates.. I feel that these discussions you and I could have over coffee (or beer for you lol) and remain civil even while we disagree.. whereas with Milo and yes I have watched him and some of his stuff is amusing.. I find he likes to argue and debate (and I have a bad temper so it is probably not wise lol). Which are things I do not like to do, because it relies on a person's character and how well he can articulate a defense or launch an attack on the ball. Which I am weak at.
Now to the thick of it, it is very hard to defend against an enemy that is undefined and unidentified. So saying that religion or namely Islam has something "wrong" with it, but you are not sure what makes it tough to counter. But being a devils advocate and trying to put myself in your shoes as much as I Can, I would say and agree the Islamic World has something wrong with it. That thing being the teaching, appointment, education, tenure and credentials of people or persons put into position or places of influence in the Muslim community. Which really sucks to admit, but if we are looking for an issue maybe this is it. I still argue that the vast majority of Muslims are good, honest, hardworking chaps we would all love to have as our neighbour. Even the ignorant ones in places of power who unknowingly misguided people along a darker path are not inherently evil, but because they should have not been in that position to begin with evil has resulted and people were led to follow truly evil "preachers" by a person who would have never consciously done it. Then we have the truly insane, evil, pieces of work who should be put down faster then a rabid dog because of this issue.. and that issue speaks for itself, but to me that is an extremely small percent.. but coupled with other issues I think are the true reasons it results in what we have today.
I have also, since our last talks. Been watching and trying to stay aware of different emerging thoughts in the Islamic world and one, one that stands out for me and makes me happy. Is the one that a caliph (leader etc) is not actually an obligation for Muslims, it is a revival of an Islamic teaching from centuries ago when we had issues with Caliphs. A big group of scholars sat down to ponder the issue and decided essentially, I'm paraphrasing that if having an Islamic leader would cause a ton of issues, one is not needed in any way and that local leaders would suffice as long as they were just etc. I believe if you are interested Mufti Abu Layth has an hour or so talk regarding it, his talk is a simple primer on the subject.. but he laughs to much lol. Now as an add on to this subject and to touch on Recce's issues, which are also fair. A lot of Islamic scholars see the state and church as separate or at the very least they can be separate and it is not the end of world. Many instances in history show this, ie an Islamic caliph has non-Muslim specialists as the head of medicine or education etc and they have final say on those issues. (Sorry guys I am not sourcing as much as I should. We are buying our first home soon God willing and I'm sitting here thinking about places while I type this I will try to source it later). But I feel many Muslims are into protectionist policies, because that is the only way they feel they can protect Islam instead of letting Islam stand on its own two feet as a method for getting closer to God. So if Muslims essentially grow up and realize the more they try to protect and isolate Islam, the worse it seems to get and if they have Islam as the state religion and for the masses then if the masses truly want Islam then it will be reflected in their daily lives.. not forced on them by the government who, let's face it should not be trusted to dictate what you believe or how you believe. (This point of view has legitimate arguments against it, so if a Muslim doesn't agree he can be right and this belief is right too.. Which feeds your understanding me picking and choosing what I believe lol)
Now Kat I'll address what you said, you are right and wrong. We do not have a figurehead, for sure, so you are 100% right there. But the more I think on it, I think you are wrong too. See a few major sects of Islam have centers of power ie deobandi's their seat of power is darul uloom deoband, salafis have Saudi, eastern European Muslims tend to follow the rulings out of Russia's Islamic council etc etc etc. So I really do not know if your on to something or not.. or if you are more right then wrong. I am simply not that smart.
Now you asked me a question and bluntly so jarnhamar but can I answer with a question? You asked if i still think sharia should be in Canada.. well if you consider my views on different issues, would it be so bad? One of my obligations for it would be for it to have legally and democratically come to pass and only be enforced on Muslims. Since Islam is for Muslims. My vision of what sharia would be like in Canada assuming Muslims made up 51% of the population so they could legally pass it. Is let's say you are my neighbor and we decide to do a bbq, you have your beer, pork chops and we hit the beach in typical Canadian beach wear and guess what.. nothing happens. The police walk by, one of which is non-Muslim and he joins us for another beer.. and no one died... basically Canada would still be Canada. I'd still fight for your right to criticize Islam and have your own beliefs. Remember I believe breaking an Islamic injunction should not be punished in this life, but be sorted out in the next, so Muslims could break Islamic laws and they would not be dragged off kicking and screaming. The only real noticeable changes I could See, would be death for murderers and rapists.. Which is something many non-Muslims would support. You may also see a reduction in taxes ie no income tax, we would see an implementation of zakat without so many loopholes.. 2.5% of your inactive net worth is taxed.. ie second homes etc etc.. basically making ultra wealthy pay more tax lol I would also suspect you would enjoy the reduction in legal restrictions regarding firearms etc etc etc but remember this is my view and interpretation of Islam.. and this I see no issue with. But.. if a darker, more twisted view of Islam comes to power in Canada.. I may sadly lose my life fighting against it, but let's hope that never comes to pass.
I am happily living in Canada without Canadian law being as per the sharia, I can still live here and be a fully practicing Muslim happily and easily. My kids are safe here, my wife is happy, I don't have to worry about war, robberies or not coming home to my family. So I am more then happy with Canada (except maybe who our leader is and some of his idiotic decisions that will likely hurt our economy) and I have no desire to change anything here aside from maybe letting guys with Ar's take them hunting lol
But I suspect you knew all this
Abdullah
Ps God this was long
Now to the thick of it, it is very hard to defend against an enemy that is undefined and unidentified. So saying that religion or namely Islam has something "wrong" with it, but you are not sure what makes it tough to counter. But being a devils advocate and trying to put myself in your shoes as much as I Can, I would say and agree the Islamic World has something wrong with it. That thing being the teaching, appointment, education, tenure and credentials of people or persons put into position or places of influence in the Muslim community. Which really sucks to admit, but if we are looking for an issue maybe this is it. I still argue that the vast majority of Muslims are good, honest, hardworking chaps we would all love to have as our neighbour. Even the ignorant ones in places of power who unknowingly misguided people along a darker path are not inherently evil, but because they should have not been in that position to begin with evil has resulted and people were led to follow truly evil "preachers" by a person who would have never consciously done it. Then we have the truly insane, evil, pieces of work who should be put down faster then a rabid dog because of this issue.. and that issue speaks for itself, but to me that is an extremely small percent.. but coupled with other issues I think are the true reasons it results in what we have today.
I have also, since our last talks. Been watching and trying to stay aware of different emerging thoughts in the Islamic world and one, one that stands out for me and makes me happy. Is the one that a caliph (leader etc) is not actually an obligation for Muslims, it is a revival of an Islamic teaching from centuries ago when we had issues with Caliphs. A big group of scholars sat down to ponder the issue and decided essentially, I'm paraphrasing that if having an Islamic leader would cause a ton of issues, one is not needed in any way and that local leaders would suffice as long as they were just etc. I believe if you are interested Mufti Abu Layth has an hour or so talk regarding it, his talk is a simple primer on the subject.. but he laughs to much lol. Now as an add on to this subject and to touch on Recce's issues, which are also fair. A lot of Islamic scholars see the state and church as separate or at the very least they can be separate and it is not the end of world. Many instances in history show this, ie an Islamic caliph has non-Muslim specialists as the head of medicine or education etc and they have final say on those issues. (Sorry guys I am not sourcing as much as I should. We are buying our first home soon God willing and I'm sitting here thinking about places while I type this I will try to source it later). But I feel many Muslims are into protectionist policies, because that is the only way they feel they can protect Islam instead of letting Islam stand on its own two feet as a method for getting closer to God. So if Muslims essentially grow up and realize the more they try to protect and isolate Islam, the worse it seems to get and if they have Islam as the state religion and for the masses then if the masses truly want Islam then it will be reflected in their daily lives.. not forced on them by the government who, let's face it should not be trusted to dictate what you believe or how you believe. (This point of view has legitimate arguments against it, so if a Muslim doesn't agree he can be right and this belief is right too.. Which feeds your understanding me picking and choosing what I believe lol)
Now Kat I'll address what you said, you are right and wrong. We do not have a figurehead, for sure, so you are 100% right there. But the more I think on it, I think you are wrong too. See a few major sects of Islam have centers of power ie deobandi's their seat of power is darul uloom deoband, salafis have Saudi, eastern European Muslims tend to follow the rulings out of Russia's Islamic council etc etc etc. So I really do not know if your on to something or not.. or if you are more right then wrong. I am simply not that smart.
Now you asked me a question and bluntly so jarnhamar but can I answer with a question? You asked if i still think sharia should be in Canada.. well if you consider my views on different issues, would it be so bad? One of my obligations for it would be for it to have legally and democratically come to pass and only be enforced on Muslims. Since Islam is for Muslims. My vision of what sharia would be like in Canada assuming Muslims made up 51% of the population so they could legally pass it. Is let's say you are my neighbor and we decide to do a bbq, you have your beer, pork chops and we hit the beach in typical Canadian beach wear and guess what.. nothing happens. The police walk by, one of which is non-Muslim and he joins us for another beer.. and no one died... basically Canada would still be Canada. I'd still fight for your right to criticize Islam and have your own beliefs. Remember I believe breaking an Islamic injunction should not be punished in this life, but be sorted out in the next, so Muslims could break Islamic laws and they would not be dragged off kicking and screaming. The only real noticeable changes I could See, would be death for murderers and rapists.. Which is something many non-Muslims would support. You may also see a reduction in taxes ie no income tax, we would see an implementation of zakat without so many loopholes.. 2.5% of your inactive net worth is taxed.. ie second homes etc etc.. basically making ultra wealthy pay more tax lol I would also suspect you would enjoy the reduction in legal restrictions regarding firearms etc etc etc but remember this is my view and interpretation of Islam.. and this I see no issue with. But.. if a darker, more twisted view of Islam comes to power in Canada.. I may sadly lose my life fighting against it, but let's hope that never comes to pass.
I am happily living in Canada without Canadian law being as per the sharia, I can still live here and be a fully practicing Muslim happily and easily. My kids are safe here, my wife is happy, I don't have to worry about war, robberies or not coming home to my family. So I am more then happy with Canada (except maybe who our leader is and some of his idiotic decisions that will likely hurt our economy) and I have no desire to change anything here aside from maybe letting guys with Ar's take them hunting lol
But I suspect you knew all this
Abdullah
Ps God this was long
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
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Meanwhile, we've probably never thanked the Muslims properly for saving Europe:
How Islam Saved Europe: A Reminder Of The History Of Islam In Relations To The European Dark Age and Renaissance
https://www.theodysseyonline.com/how-islam-saved-Europe
As for Africa, compare the ongoing antediluvian tragedy that is Sub-Saharan Africa with Northern Africa and, despite the obvious challenges in the northern part of the continent, you can see the relative benefits of Islamic missionary work over the centuries.
As always, the extremists tend to ruin it for everyone.
How Islam Saved Europe: A Reminder Of The History Of Islam In Relations To The European Dark Age and Renaissance
https://www.theodysseyonline.com/how-islam-saved-Europe
As for Africa, compare the ongoing antediluvian tragedy that is Sub-Saharan Africa with Northern Africa and, despite the obvious challenges in the northern part of the continent, you can see the relative benefits of Islamic missionary work over the centuries.
As always, the extremists tend to ruin it for everyone.
Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
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[quote author=AbdullahD]I still argue that the vast majority of Muslims are good, honest, hardworking chaps we would all love to have as our neighbour.[/quote]
No disagreement here, I think many (most) might be too. BUT, is what constitutes as being a Muslim subjective?
Maybe they might be like the hardcore practicing Muslim woman in the video debate with Milo I'm talking about. The hardcore Muslim who couldn't name half the rules of being a Muslim and had to have gay Milo teach her about Islam. Have you seen the video? Sounds like Trudeau trying to explain something when he doesn't have his ear piece in. I can find it for you if you'd like, it's embarrassing to watch though.
Maybe those good neighbors are good Muslim neighbors because they're not exposed to the full meal deal? The stuff people read and take on board that makes them want to kill infidels? I don't. But I do think people may have a tendency to pick and choose what rules they like, what ones they don't, which they follow and so on. Just like how the protestant religion came to be eh?
Sharia law in Canada? A separate law system for anyone who identifies as Muslim? Sounds great to me and considering how Imans can make up Islam rules on the fly it's not ripe for abuse at all.
-Traditionally, Islam has permitted marriage of girls below the age of 10, because Sharia considers practices of Muhammad as a basis for Islamic law. According to Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, the two Sunni hadiths, Muhammed married Aisha, his third wife when she was 6, and consummated the marriage when she reached the age of 9 or 10. Also
-Muslim women are not allowed to marry non-muslim men.
-The Quran also permits men to first admonish, then lightly tap or push and even beat her, if he suspects nushuz (disobedience, disloyalty, rebellion, ill conduct) in his wife
-Muslim woman can only have sex after her "nikah" – a proper marriage contract – with one Muslim man; sex is permitted to her only with her husband.[129][279][280] The woman's husband, may however, marry and have sex with more than one Muslim woman, as well as have sex with non-Muslim slaves
Good stuff.
Heck we could even look at changing our name to the Canadian-Caliphate maybe?
But actually that's the perfect answer to accentuate my theory on the good neighbors you're talking about. You want to take Shari law and and modify it, pick and choose various parts of it to follow and not to follow. Get rid of the whole misogynist stuff (despite you not thinking it's misogynist ). So it wouldn't be Sharia law but a watered down and modified version of it. Just like the Muslim woman in Australia was "Muslim" but a strange modified version of it.
On second thought here's the countries that practice different forms of Shiara law. Think I'll pass.
No disagreement here, I think many (most) might be too. BUT, is what constitutes as being a Muslim subjective?
Maybe they might be like the hardcore practicing Muslim woman in the video debate with Milo I'm talking about. The hardcore Muslim who couldn't name half the rules of being a Muslim and had to have gay Milo teach her about Islam. Have you seen the video? Sounds like Trudeau trying to explain something when he doesn't have his ear piece in. I can find it for you if you'd like, it's embarrassing to watch though.
Maybe those good neighbors are good Muslim neighbors because they're not exposed to the full meal deal? The stuff people read and take on board that makes them want to kill infidels? I don't. But I do think people may have a tendency to pick and choose what rules they like, what ones they don't, which they follow and so on. Just like how the protestant religion came to be eh?
Sharia law in Canada? A separate law system for anyone who identifies as Muslim? Sounds great to me and considering how Imans can make up Islam rules on the fly it's not ripe for abuse at all.
-Traditionally, Islam has permitted marriage of girls below the age of 10, because Sharia considers practices of Muhammad as a basis for Islamic law. According to Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, the two Sunni hadiths, Muhammed married Aisha, his third wife when she was 6, and consummated the marriage when she reached the age of 9 or 10. Also
-Muslim women are not allowed to marry non-muslim men.
-The Quran also permits men to first admonish, then lightly tap or push and even beat her, if he suspects nushuz (disobedience, disloyalty, rebellion, ill conduct) in his wife
-Muslim woman can only have sex after her "nikah" – a proper marriage contract – with one Muslim man; sex is permitted to her only with her husband.[129][279][280] The woman's husband, may however, marry and have sex with more than one Muslim woman, as well as have sex with non-Muslim slaves
Good stuff.
Heck we could even look at changing our name to the Canadian-Caliphate maybe?
But actually that's the perfect answer to accentuate my theory on the good neighbors you're talking about. You want to take Shari law and and modify it, pick and choose various parts of it to follow and not to follow. Get rid of the whole misogynist stuff (despite you not thinking it's misogynist ). So it wouldn't be Sharia law but a watered down and modified version of it. Just like the Muslim woman in Australia was "Muslim" but a strange modified version of it.
On second thought here's the countries that practice different forms of Shiara law. Think I'll pass.
http://www.discoveringislam.org/aisha_age.htm I'd go with 17-19 personally but pedophiles and pigs are just that. Sahih hadiths do not equal Islam, this is the same trap extremist preachers use. Sahih hadiths are just that sahih hadiths.. But haven't we gone over this before and how imam's make ignorant fatwas are because of this? I'll go with 19 and raping children is forbidden.. But ignorant pieces of.. will be sure to say I'm wrong because they like to.. But I have an army of Muftis who agree with me, so I'm fine believing it.
Come on man I have a daughter
i am actually a modernist on this one.. okay I said it. But the modernist approach makes the most logical sense to me and Islam is a religion that is supposed to be modernized and coexist with the times. Not fight against them.http://www.altmuslimah.com/2010/09/muslim_women_should_be_able_to_marry_non-muslim_men/
I swear i covered this before. My Google-fu is weak today and I can't find where I did it.. But here is a quick link.. it's forbidden.
http://www.islamawareness.net/Wife/beating1.html
Haven't we covered this issue too? Or well these issues
Polygamy.. http://answering-christianity.com/polygamy.htm ok so there is an argument in addition to my previous ones I have given.. But a major reason polyandry is not allowed is because of the children's lineage.. so in today's age with genetic testing etc.. couldn't polyandry be allowed since no ayat of Quran forbids It? Hmm... yea this argument works really well for Muslim men who do not realize Islam restricts polygamy not encourage it. Again Islam is supposed to be used in conjunction with common sense and logic, which makes these talks great because I have to try and use both lol.
Slavery.. Umar ra forbid it.. and he is one of the righteously guided caliphs so it is a no go.
A link to add on to my early stuff https://abuaminaelias.com/what-does-islam-teach-about-slavery/
There is no sex allowed in islam before nikah neither for men or women. Also I swear i have said that the Islamic sharia is meant to adapt with the times and that does not mean it is watered down. Very few things in Islam do not change ie the 5 pillars, but a lot of it can be modernized and changed for the times and not affect Islam so it is not us picking and choosing what we want to follow. It is us following the sharia that makes sense in this day and age, a sharia that is just as potent as the one from 1500 years ago..
I personally think Muslims who are completely exposed to everything make the best neighbors, because they will be educated regarding their religion and be able to refute claims the extremists make.
As always I am constantly learning and evolving my beliefs to try and get the most correct, educated views for the world we live in, in this day and age. Also please do show me where I do not believe misogynistic stuff is misogynistic I would really wish to review that position.
Abdullah
Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
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[quote author=AbdullahD]
Haven't we covered this issue too? Or well these issues[/QUOTE]
Yes we have, which is why I'm glad you answered this way again.
Let's forget that the whole premise of Shaira law being based off Mohammad "doing it so it's okay" (and without touching on the weird sexual stuff).
Where the example I gave above of the Muslim woman not being able to articulate what it even was to be a Muslim you're the opposite and have modernized views on old laws, your own inturputations and inturputations of other people's inturputations.. Picking and choosing what sounds nice. Shaira law is so open to inturputation now that there's no standard. Would your views of the perfect Shaira law even be able to be considered Shaira law anymore?
Look at the map above of the countries that follow it. Nice places to live? You live in a Canada and love Canada but you want to bring a law from those countries here? It doesn't make sense. You want to make up your own law to fit your own views of what you think your religion is or should be. It's fantasy, the same way me wanting a Robert Heinlein civilian-citizen society is.
Do you have enough faith in Islam to send your children to an Islamic school in one of those middle eastern countries? Take after John Lett?
You inturput that it's supposed to adapt with the times, but that's not happening very much is it?
Why are there so many violent Islamic extremists compared to everyone else?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/123793.0.html
Haven't we covered this issue too? Or well these issues[/QUOTE]
Yes we have, which is why I'm glad you answered this way again.
Let's forget that the whole premise of Shaira law being based off Mohammad "doing it so it's okay" (and without touching on the weird sexual stuff).
Where the example I gave above of the Muslim woman not being able to articulate what it even was to be a Muslim you're the opposite and have modernized views on old laws, your own inturputations and inturputations of other people's inturputations.. Picking and choosing what sounds nice. Shaira law is so open to inturputation now that there's no standard. Would your views of the perfect Shaira law even be able to be considered Shaira law anymore?
Look at the map above of the countries that follow it. Nice places to live? You live in a Canada and love Canada but you want to bring a law from those countries here? It doesn't make sense. You want to make up your own law to fit your own views of what you think your religion is or should be. It's fantasy, the same way me wanting a Robert Heinlein civilian-citizen society is.
Do you have enough faith in Islam to send your children to an Islamic school in one of those middle eastern countries? Take after John Lett?
You inturput that it's supposed to adapt with the times, but that's not happening very much is it?
Why are there so many violent Islamic extremists compared to everyone else?
https://army.ca/forums/threads/123793.0.html
Islam has actually changed a lot in the last two decades. In 1970 Pakistan was welcoming Christian medical missionaries and the country was very accepting of other faiths: now it is a capital offence to even mention Christianity to a Muslim. In 1995 Muslim wives were free to choose their own wardrobe in Sweden: no more. The murder rate for Coptic Christians in Egypt has increased alarmingly in the last 20 years (at least that is the way it appears). In 1979 Iran universities were noted for their openness and sexual equality. Girls wore skirts and blouses and blue jeans too. They didn't chose to change their styles; the government chose for them. And I could go on but that is enough. So you may be preaching Islam as a peaceful, tolerant faith but the evidence says most change has been for the negative. Please show me where I am wrong.
Jarnhamar said:
Jarnhamar can you please explain what you think sharia law is to me? I am having trouble with that, i am beginning to feel "sharia law" is just an undefined monster in the closet and your understanding of what it is or is not and what it can or can't do is interesting. Also can you tell me what you think the standard is?
I will, as I can, address each point I disagree with, with evidence such as I can muster.. and i feel i will be explaining more heavily who exactly propagates these teachings... so it can be shown the sharia I follow is 100% Islamic.
Also there are Islamic schools in other countries I would send my kids to. But what is the point to that question? Why does having enough faith enter into the equation of sending my kids somewhere? I live in Smithers bc. I want my kids with me and I have enough faith in Islam to keep them with me. Remember my friend, I have talked to a number of Islamic scholars and quite a number of them have their own madrasahs or darul uloom in these backwater countries so to speak propagating these values, to be honest I really wish to visit my friends and when we go my kids may sit in too but language barriers exist.
Maybe I am a protestant in a Catholic vs protestant war in Islam just like what happened years ago in Christianity (Sorry my Catholic brothers, I do not mean this as a dig it is just used as an example). But I don't think so and the reasons you may think I am I feel are wholly incorrect.
Abdullah
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Abdullah,
How are modern Muslims trying to stop the tribal fanatic islamists, ISIS, AQ, and the rest? Can they withhold donations and things like that? How do your scholars approach that problem? What kind of pressure could they bring to bear to stop what's going on? Is there a way to get Middle Eastern countries to start taking care of their brethren. Saudi Arabia, for example, has refused to take in a single refugee from other countries like Syria. That would seem to me as 180 degrees opposite from what the Muslim faith espouses, is it not? I know there are different sects that hate each other, but aren't the basic tenets to be followed by all? Similar to all the different Christian sects? I'd be interested to hear your Imam's point of view on this. Maybe something we haven't thought of. Or maybe something that can be accomplished together.
Sorry, I know that's a lot of questions and I'm not looking for an immediate answer on any of them. I just need to try understand things a little better. Take your time and consult your Imam if you wish, which I hope you do, as I'm interested in their opinion also.
Cheers
How are modern Muslims trying to stop the tribal fanatic islamists, ISIS, AQ, and the rest? Can they withhold donations and things like that? How do your scholars approach that problem? What kind of pressure could they bring to bear to stop what's going on? Is there a way to get Middle Eastern countries to start taking care of their brethren. Saudi Arabia, for example, has refused to take in a single refugee from other countries like Syria. That would seem to me as 180 degrees opposite from what the Muslim faith espouses, is it not? I know there are different sects that hate each other, but aren't the basic tenets to be followed by all? Similar to all the different Christian sects? I'd be interested to hear your Imam's point of view on this. Maybe something we haven't thought of. Or maybe something that can be accomplished together.
Sorry, I know that's a lot of questions and I'm not looking for an immediate answer on any of them. I just need to try understand things a little better. Take your time and consult your Imam if you wish, which I hope you do, as I'm interested in their opinion also.
Cheers
Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
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Apostasy laws
Punishment for bring gay
Maroon is a death penalty
Red life in prison
Orange imprisonment
In 2018 there have been 369 mostly terror attacks in 29 countries with 2199 people killed and 2556 injured.
What religion would you guess those attackers were? Jewish? Russian Orthodox?
I can't explain exactly what shaira law is to you Abdullah because it seems to change on a whim depending on who's justifying what. I can tell you the places that follow it mostly seem like really shitty places to live, especially for women. And a death sentence if you`re gay or transexual.
Its definitely a monster in the closet.
I asked about the Islamic schools because of all the stories in the news of kids/people converting to islam then wanting to kill for Islam.
And Sweden is very much a write off. There is Swedish woman who made online jokes about Islam who could be jailed for 2 years. Because she liked or shared a picture.
Meanwhile one migrant who raped a woman and broadcast it on Facebook was given 2 years, the other guy with him, an 18 year old, was given 1 year.
Sweden has gone full retard.
If you ask me these sexual assaults, riots and destruction happening all over Western Europe could be a form of terrorism. You couldn't pay me 2 million dollars to have my wife and daughters hang out in Sweden for a month, or even a week.
Punishment for bring gay
Maroon is a death penalty
Red life in prison
Orange imprisonment
In 2018 there have been 369 mostly terror attacks in 29 countries with 2199 people killed and 2556 injured.
What religion would you guess those attackers were? Jewish? Russian Orthodox?
I can't explain exactly what shaira law is to you Abdullah because it seems to change on a whim depending on who's justifying what. I can tell you the places that follow it mostly seem like really shitty places to live, especially for women. And a death sentence if you`re gay or transexual.
Its definitely a monster in the closet.
I asked about the Islamic schools because of all the stories in the news of kids/people converting to islam then wanting to kill for Islam.
And Sweden is very much a write off. There is Swedish woman who made online jokes about Islam who could be jailed for 2 years. Because she liked or shared a picture.
Meanwhile one migrant who raped a woman and broadcast it on Facebook was given 2 years, the other guy with him, an 18 year old, was given 1 year.
Sweden has gone full retard.
If you ask me these sexual assaults, riots and destruction happening all over Western Europe could be a form of terrorism. You couldn't pay me 2 million dollars to have my wife and daughters hang out in Sweden for a month, or even a week.
Recce, I will get back to you and yes that is a lot. I'll get releases or videos or something for you to watch or read. So it is not me saying it and possibly twisting it. But I focus more on the academic stuff, my friends focus on more practical stuff.
Jarnhamar, you see how hard it is for me to address any issues that you have if you can't at first define them? It is like a moving target. I can explain who and what, says what, when and why. But if it does not address the real issue, we will just go in circles. I can address all these different topics, all day long as I have been doing off and on, but we are still at the same spot. Especially on these apostasy and homosexuality issues ie religion vs culture vs traditions vs social economic and education.. you say religion I say the rest.. tough position for me.
I can say these things, with my evidence but your experiences, knowledge and exposures negates them. I'm not sure I'm hitting the mark, but I'm sure you understand I hope lol.
Abdullah
Jarnhamar, you see how hard it is for me to address any issues that you have if you can't at first define them? It is like a moving target. I can explain who and what, says what, when and why. But if it does not address the real issue, we will just go in circles. I can address all these different topics, all day long as I have been doing off and on, but we are still at the same spot. Especially on these apostasy and homosexuality issues ie religion vs culture vs traditions vs social economic and education.. you say religion I say the rest.. tough position for me.
I can say these things, with my evidence but your experiences, knowledge and exposures negates them. I'm not sure I'm hitting the mark, but I'm sure you understand I hope lol.
Abdullah
recceguy said:
Basically Islamic scholars are doing all they can I think I posted a pdf file for a list before.. I may have to search for it.. But here is a primer anyways
https://islamwich.com/2016/09/02/update-what-muslims-are-doing-to-stop-terrorism/
https://islamunravelled.ca Mufti aasim has a lot of work here that helps prevent recruitment via education. His YouTube and Facebook channels are good too.
https://www.tolonews.com/index.php/afghanistan/2000-religious-scholars-pakistan-sign-anti-terror-fatwa
My friends that I know personally believe more in prevention through education... I'm not sure how scholars could influence the financial industry that I would think is more of a national and international issue. Muslims don't exactly do fundraising for extremists and then go "haha we fooled you" and keep the cash they usually just report the extremists.. or the countries bomb them.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29074514
Fox reported we report.. that surprised me I have to use it lol
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/06/16/report-us-officials-say-muslims-frequently-report-terror-threats.html
If any Muslim scholar I know of was told to send money to extremists, he would not and he would report it.
Military alliance to stop it sound good?
http://www.newsweek.com/muslim-countries-forming-military-alliance-fight-terrorism-586315
But lots of theological fatwas etc have been passed to try and curb/stop the issue. Again see earlier posts.
If it was true, I would completely agree.
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/8175924
https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/refugee-crisis-saudi-arabia-says-it-has-taken-2-5-million-fleeing-syrians-1519532
If you believe these 5 things your Muslim. Period, end, of, story.
https://www.islam-guide.com/ch3-16.htm
*puts on rose colored glasses* we do get along shayk badat yusuf is a chap i respect and follow to an extent. (I'm actually singing "lets all be friends" right now, I need help
)https://muslimlink.ca/news/the-muslim-coordinating-council-organizes-the-first-unity-dinner-on-parliament-hill
*takes off glasses* but outside of the West this is a very serious issue and it ticks me off that one Muslim kills another because he believes just slightly different. But it is not as bad as it is made out to be. But that is anecdotal from my friends in different countries that currently have issues.. they don't understand either and are surprised how much media time this issue gets. So I can tip on this if shown to be wrong with objective evidence.
The consulting part is embarrassing because of my new phone I lost a LOT of numbers, I'm getting calls from random numbers and they are buddies numbers I lost. But I'll post stuff of scholars I follow for generic knowledge here. Again I am embarrassed it's been a while and a lot of my bookmarks are missing so it is doubly embarrassing.
Shayk Atabek shukrov on Isis via taymiyyah he has more academic stuff that is amazing to read if you have lots of time he covers a lot of issues. I am currently trying to get a book he has done too.
https://shaykhatabekshukurov.com/2016/06/24/heresy-of-muslim-philosophers-and-divine-love-of-scholars/
I have met syed as well as shayk badat used to have both their numbers.. But they are active in a fight against radicalization on many fronts. If you guys live in Calgary do meet syed he is awesome and shayk badat in toronto.
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-feb-20-2015-1.2964498/muslim-leaders-strategize-to-thwart-converts-from-radicalization-1.2964596
Mufti aasim and my friends in the bcma and their program against terrorism
https://glasscityarchive.wordpress.com/2015/01/19/local-muslim-association-launches-campaign-attacks/
If you peruse shayk Syed, Shayk Yusuf badat , Mufti Aasim Rashid and Shayk Atabek Shukrov you will get a good idea of what my friends believe. Those are the most Google noticeable of the guys I know. If you want another good one from a guy I respect but do not know look up Mufti menk he is an easy listening preacher. He has a lot on YouTube too
http://www.thedeenshow.com/mufti-menk-on-isis-extremism/
Abdullah
Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
- Reaction score
- 7,087
- Points
- 1,160
Yes it doesn't make sense to have Muslims in Canada have the option of following a law we can't even define.
I do appreciate having an amiable disagreement with you.
If you feel like I'm belabouring the point or begging the question please stop me but I'm still wrestling with why we see so much radical Islam extremism.
You said
Okay. So why does Islam attract a disproportionate amount of these people with social, economic and psychological issues?
What is it about Islam that's so attractive?
I do appreciate having an amiable disagreement with you.
If you feel like I'm belabouring the point or begging the question please stop me but I'm still wrestling with why we see so much radical Islam extremism.
You said
Okay. So why does Islam attract a disproportionate amount of these people with social, economic and psychological issues?
What is it about Islam that's so attractive?
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 10
Okay. Sooo this is about as simple as I can break it down.
I'm a Muslim in the CAF. It is my firm belief that each Muslim should interpret their religion alone to minimize the chances of being radicalized, and that if anyone is told by a Muslim that they should or must live under Sharia law... said person has the right to tell them to F*** O** because the very first rule in Sharia law is that you must willingly submit to it.
So if anyone ever tries to imply or force you to submit to sharia or accept sharia - tell them to get stuffed and be on your way.
I'm a Muslim in the CAF. It is my firm belief that each Muslim should interpret their religion alone to minimize the chances of being radicalized, and that if anyone is told by a Muslim that they should or must live under Sharia law... said person has the right to tell them to F*** O** because the very first rule in Sharia law is that you must willingly submit to it.
So if anyone ever tries to imply or force you to submit to sharia or accept sharia - tell them to get stuffed and be on your way.
reallyanonymous said:
Amen brother
To jarnhamar
Why are they attracted to or forced to? That's the question. This is more out of my league, so I am extremely open on this subject. I am literally putting thoughts out there and am more then willing to discuss, be corrected on or discard them.
Political machinations have an Impact.
The USA has tried to over throw or did or had a heavy hand in their ruling or well fortunes. A list including years.
https://williamblum.org/essays/read/overthrowing-other-peoples-governments-the-master-list said:
Another link to the same effect http://investmentwatchblog.com/since-1945-the-usa-has-attempted-to-overthrow-more-than-50-foreign-governments-most-of-which-had-been-democratically-elected/
Could an arms embargo be affecting safety a list
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/current-arms-embargoes-and-other-restrictions
A strong army has more use then just war (and by inference what we are denying the embargoed countries)
https://index.heritage.org/military/2016/essays/role-of-a-strong-national-defense/
Large multi national companies hinder a nation's rebuilding or growth thus fueling a negative economic a social situation
https://www.youthkiawaaz.com/2010/01/multinational-companies-a-curse-to-developing-countries/
Lack of income, equals a lack of education that equals a lack of income.. a vicious cycle.. that if broken helps us all.
https://www.globalpartnership.org/education/the-benefits-of-education
Education and health
https://www.nber.org/digest/mar07/w12352.html
Poverty and mental health
https://ontario.cmha.ca/documents/poverty-and-mental-illness/
Basically my argument a lot of these issues, are extremely complex and massively nuanced. Starting from whenever we wish to start the date and wrong decisions to be on one side of the power struggle.. or the other (I'm thinking ww1 and ww2) and the implications of those choices. Then how each decision from all parties involved keep pushing the world farther down the road we are on. I am not, in ANY way blaming "the west" but with the world being so interconnected and the Islamic countries have very little power compared to the west or Russia or China during certain episodes of the last 100 or so years.. they were more open to being influenced? Bullied? Manipulated? Afghanistan before Russia invaded was not the Afghanistan we have now.. imagine if Afghanistan could have went toe to toe with Russia in a war in all aspects.. had the same nuclear, aerial etc capabilities.. history would have been different. The USA coming to Afghanistan's aid was a short term good thing.. and I mean it. But long term it may have been better to just let Russia have it.
I'm over simplifying but the more we meddle the worse it seems to get, yea Afghanistan is bad but before the recent invasion it was still way better.
https://www.democracynow.org/2007/2/22/the_iraq_effect_new_study_finds
Living in a war zone has to suck. And a lot of these "bad" Islamic countries are pretty much just that.. war zones. I do not know how long a country takes to recover from an invasion, especially with all these other issues involved.. but even if you say 20-30 years if we would have or could have just left them all alone, to fight it out, establish dominance etc whatever countries do we would possibly be far better off today then we are and "West hate" would likely not be a thing "kill the kafrs" likely wouldn't exist cause it would have been these idiots doing it to themselves.. and if you look at 100 year crime rates in the west once a country is semi stable within 100 years it becomes extremely safe, educated and advanced in thought and technology or infrastructure. But my opinion this lot was not chosen by the current generation it was chosen by the previous, the cure.. in my opinion.. is harsh, pathetic, sad, possibly even cowardly.. but it is to stop trying to be the hero and let them kill each other. It may be to late, but that is my ignorant view.. I always believed in not putting my nose were it did not belong.
Now Islam is very attractive because it is beautifully complex or simple, depending on what you want you can just follow the 5 pillars or you can go much farther along and try to get closer to God by emulating the sunnah (habits) of the prophet and his righteous companions. Both roads are Islam, but a person can choose what works for him and neither road is violent. It is peaceful, you can wake up and pray centering yourself for the day and few other times through out your day, to keep your inner peace in place. Or you can wake up and smile at your wife and possibly get admitted into heaven just for smiling at your wife/husband/whatever even your dog.
Movie time ttyl
Abdullah
- Reaction score
- 6,142
- Points
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AbdullahD said:
Tanks Abdulla,
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply the mosque would send money to terrorists. What I meant was like if the church or diocese send tithes to the Vatican.
Cheers
