Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)

[jollyjacktar]

Abdullah, I have a big issue with the sign on the left.  The one on the right, is just stupid but stupid isn't as bad as what's on the left.

 

[AbdullahD]

Abdullah, I have a big issue with the sign on the left.  The one on the right, is just stupid but stupid isn't as bad as what's on the left.

Islam the solution for france or the devils religion?

To be honest the entire scene gives me the goosebumbs and if I was in that area when that was happening I would be wondering what the heck they were doing and why.

The religion of the devil, is a derogatory insult that if my child ever held a sign like that I would be ashamed to my core. So it actually ticks me off Muslims are stupid enough to do idiocy like this.

The Islam is the solution for france, in a political sense is sinister but in a spiritual sense not so bad. But taken in context with the other signs it is concerning.

So yea, I'm none to pleased either. But other more wholesome protests and lobbying im okay with. This particular scene I am not.

Ps if your talking about the middle picture... id slap both ****** and those beliefs have no place in Islam.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I'm only seeing the middle (?) picture with "massacre those who insult Islam" and "Freedom go to hell".  That, and the poor bastards in the orange jumpsuits.

 

[AbdullahD]

I'm only seeing the middle (?) picture with "massacre those who insult Islam" and "Freedom go to hell".  That, and the poor bastards in the orange jumpsuits.

Oh I see a third picture below that. But the one you are seeing, id be extremely worried about.

Stupidity knows no bounds at the first two pictures seem to be the epitome of stupidity.

I really should post pictures of Muslims doing good acts at inter faith meetings or other such places... but I have no time and I am sure everyone knows about it anyways

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Stupidity knows no bounds at the first two pictures seem to be the epitome of stupidity.

Well, the third one is not far behind either.

But you are right: Stupidity knows no bound - and kicking the ladder you are standing on is certainly a common human act of stupidity regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation, or any other form of distinction you can think of.

I have refrained from posting since this little burkini fracas started, but I think one of the point I have always made in the past is worth repeating:

The solution on determining how we should act here in the West is to me fairly easy: It hinges on the distinction between "freedoms" and "rights".

A Freedom is something inherently personal: an individual has the enjoyment of his/her own freedom. Whereas a right is something that you may oppose to someone else through the power of the state.

Freedom of speech: You can talk until you are blue in the face, but it is not a right and you cannot demand that anyone else be forced to stop and listen to you. Property is a right: If someone tries to take it away from you, the courts will upon your demand enforce your property right against others.

Where I am going is this: In the West, we have freedom of religion and belief (some say - rightly so that it includes freedom from religion). This means any individual has the right to believe what he/she will and accept/reject any god (or gods) or religious beliefs and agree to personally abide by those. But there is no right to religion or belief and therefore, whatever you may believe or religion you follow, you cannot, under any circumstances demand that anybody else (watch out here: that includes the fact that you cannot demand it of either your spouse or your children or any other relative) through compulsion of the state be forced to act on the basis of your belief or religion. Nor can you, yourself , act in any way that imposes  any one of your personal belief/religious requirements on any body else.

So, for example:

You want to bathe in a burkini because you believe it is the modesty asked of you by your religion: No problem, you are free to do so.

You refuse your wife the right to go to the beach unless she wears a burkini because you believe that's the interpretation of your religion: Too bad. She is not property and she has the freedom to decide how she dresses for herself like any other human being.

You don't want to look at woman's skin because the talmud says women should not show skin: Don't look -that's fine, you are free to abstain.

You demand that the Gym you walk by every day cover its front windows because you can see women lightly clad when you walk by and it's contrary to your religion: Too bad - so sad. Those women are free to do as they want and you have no right to impose your religious views on them.

When the distinction is made it becomes a lot easier to decide what is an accommodation that should be made and what shouldn't. And what should constitute an illegal act, such as harassing women or other people in the public space because they do not "conform" to "your" religious practices - which ought to be severely punished wherever it occurs.

All respectfully submitted for your consideration.

 

 

[Journeyman]

All respectfully submitted for your consideration.

And therein lies the snag -- some topics here just don't seem amenable to respect or consideration;  some "discussions" seem to actively drive those away. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Some of the more self reliant types may also stockpile cash for the Black Market.

Cash could possibly be worth nothing except to wipe your ass. If a government fails, so does their bank. Little valuable, easily carried items, for trading, would likely be better. Some other stuff with great trade value would be simple bare necessities of life.

https://ca.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_ylt=A0LEV2dPlMBX2vcA5EDrFAx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMjB0aG5zBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--?p=Simple+Bare+Necessaties&fr=mcafee#id=5&vid=0a4b9a1e1cf04dbaa602646572301e23&action=view

 

[a_majoor]

I generally follow the same line as OBGD, you can do what you like, so long as you don't do anything harmful to me or others, or deprive them of their rights. Even the people holding the signs (repugnant as some of the signs are) are free to hold the signs, I draw the line when they want to act on them.

The Hadiths and Koranic verses have context, just like verses in the Bible or even the Rig Veda, which is why in the post upthread I wanted to understand them. Without context, they can mean anything (which is the problem in the article, the statements are stripped of context), and knowing and understanding the context means that counter messaging can be designed and deployed.

 

[AbdullahD]

I generally follow the same line as OBGD, you can do what you like, so long as you don't do anything harmful to me or others, or deprive them of their rights. Even the people holding the signs (repugnant as some of the signs are) are free to hold the signs, I draw the line when they want to act on them.

The Hadiths and Koranic verses have context, just like verses in the Bible or even the Rig Veda, which is why in the post upthread I wanted to understand them. Without context, they can mean anything (which is the problem in the article, the statements are stripped of context), and knowing and understanding the context means that counter messaging can be designed and deployed.

I agree with you and OBGD, in the statements just made.

But I want to make one thing abundantly clear again... just for my own conscience.

I am in no way shape or form a person who is qualified within Islam to give rulings. I don't have ijazah or anything, I dedicated a portion of my life to theistic studies yes. But I am not a qualified person to teach Islam.

So I can be wrong and misguided, I personally consider the majority of my positions very well substantiated. But I can be wrong.

God willing I have zero issues helping and vetting Islamic information using my own personal biases. But please don't think I am qualified to do anything more then just relay authentic information.

Ok good, it is off my chest now the sentiments found on this website, makes me proud to be canadian even those that are critical of Islam are conveyed respectfully for the most part. So I am happy to be here and learn about what to expect in the next leg of my life. But I am ignorant too, maybe less so in regards to Islam, but still ignorant 

Abdullah

 

[Jarnhamar]

the sentiments found on this website, makes me proud to be canadian even those that are critical of Islam are conveyed respectfully for the most part.

So proud you couldn't be bothered to capitalize Canada?! Heretic.

Just kidding but seriously I'm probably one of the most critical people of Islam here, no surprise there of course.  I'm also not very articulate so I'm sure I sound like a goon (people use the word bigot wrong )
If I'm being honest a big part of me thinks the world would simply be better off without Islam but be that as it may it's nice to be able to debate Islam and Muslim issues with you (and others) in civil tones in an environment like we have here.

 

[George Wallace]

Remember this:  "A Canadian is a Canadian, is a Canadian"?  Well, that is a very naive sentiment and one that should definitely have some considerations to it.  Here is a case, where the Liberal "PEACEKEEPING" ideals falls flat on its face; not necessarily about our military, but about our concept that Canadians as a whole are "Peacekeepers".


Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

Bangladesh police kill Canadian suspect in restaurant attack
Tamim Chowdhury, 2 others, killed after raid on house in Narayanganj district near Dhaka
The Associated Press Posted: Aug 27, 2016 6:46 AM ET Last Updated: Aug 28, 2016 8:57 AM ET

Bangladeshi authorities say a Canadian man suspected of organizing a deadly attack on a popular restaurant in Dhaka has been killed in a police raid near the capital.

The country's top counter-terrorism official says officers killed three suspected militants early Saturday, including Bangladeshi-born Canadian Tamim Chowdhury.

He had lived in Ontario with his family and completed a chemistry degree at the University of Windsor but left Canada in 2013 in a suspected attempt to travel to Syria.

Police accuse Chowdhury of being one of two masterminds behind the July attack on the Holey Artisan Bakery that left 20 people dead, 17 of them foreigners.

He's also suspected to have led a July 7 attack on a prayer gathering near Dhaka that left four people dead, including two police officers.

Police sharpshooters raided a two-story house in Narayanganj district near the capital, Dhaka, after receiving a tip that Chowdhury and others were hiding there, top counterterrorism official Monirul Islam said.

Global Affairs Canada issued a statement Saturday saying it was "aware of news reports that Tamim Chowdhury was killed in Bangladesh."

"Canadian officials are in contact with Bangladeshi authorities to gather additional information," the statement said. "No further details can be provided at this time."

The militants belonged to the banned group Jumatul Mujahedeen Bangladesh, or JMB, Bangladesh's police chief A.K.M. Shahidul Hoque told reporters.

Police said they found guns, ammunition and meat cleavers in the apartment where the men were holed up. The men also set off explosions to destroy their computers and other evidence, said Sanwar Hossain, a senior police officer.

"We heard explosions inside the apartment and we understood that they were destroying evidence," Hossain said. "When we felt that they would not surrender, we made our final push and killed them."

When police forced their way into the apartment, they found two bodies near the main door, and Chowdhury's body was found in another room, Hossain said.

Bangladeshi police have been conducting raids across the country to hunt those behind the attacks.

After storming the building Saturday, a SWAT team made the final push and fatally shot the suspects after they failed to surrender. Haque said the team asked them to give themselves up but that they kept on firing.

The group Islamic State in Iraq and Syria claimed responsibility for the restaurant attack, but authorities have denied the claim, saying it was the act of the JMB and that ISIS has no presence in the Muslim-majority country.

University of Toronto student transferred to prison

The family of ​Tahmid Hasib Khan, a University of Toronto student who was detained in Bangladesh after surviving the restaurant attack, says he has been transferred to prison. 

Khan's family has maintained the 22-year-old, who is a permanent resident of Canada, is innocent.

"We want the court to affirm what we know — which is that he is innocent," said Khan's older brother, Talha, who is a Canadian citizen. "We want to take him to a mental health professional as soon as possible because of the trauma that he's been through. But I don't think it's going to be any time soon."

Khan arrived in Dhaka on July 1 to celebrate Eid with his family, and planned to travel to Nepal to begin an internship with UNICEF the following week. He was with friends at the Holey Artisan Bakery when five armed gunmen attacked. ​

With files from The Canadian Press
© The Associated Press, 2016

More on [url=http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/bangladesh-restaurant-attack-1.3738298

With his Degree in Chemistry, one could suspect him as being a "Bomb maker", and definitely a High Value Target of the anti-terrorist operatives.

 

[AbdullahD]

So I have been doing more digging on those hadith for online source of a tafsir of them and a complete collection of sahih bukhari to validate them.... and from what I see one of the hadiths he quotes.. does not exist.

The hadith he quoted for vol 4 book 52 #96 is as follows... which is radically different then what he posted. What I found;

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 196 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)"

What he quoted;
Hadith Sahih Bukhari 4,52,196: (I have been directed to fight the Kafir until everyone admits “There is only one god and that is Allah.”)

The hadith that I found, is very much different imo. It has now become a pet project, but finding tafsir of hadith is tough. I want to see which arabic words were used, because it could make a huge difference ie spiritual vs physical fight etc and see when and who it was said to.

Abdullah

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

You know, Abdullah, if every religion on earth took the position and view that ALL punishment for not following the "law" of their religion is to be meted out by their god and only their god  - never acting through a human being, and that no human has either the right nor the authority to dispense god's judgement here on earth, I would be a very happy man.

Human political society would still be allowed punishment for purposes of human justice, but only for acts between humans found unacceptable further to humanly determined laws, not ever used themselves to impose any religious tenet (such as blasphemy, for instance, which to me is not a "human" crime).

That would solve a lot of problems on this little speck of the Universe we live on.

 

[Jarnhamar]

So I have been doing more digging on those hadith for online source of a tafsir of them and a complete collection of sahih bukhari to validate them.... and from what I see one of the hadiths he quotes.. does not exist.

So if I understand it correctly Islamic scholars take it upon themselves to decipher the Koran and can basically come up with different rules and laws on their own? Like a thou shall not pokemon ruling?

You know, Abdullah, if every religion on earth took the position and view that ALL punishment for not following the "law" of their religion is to be meted out by their god and only their god  - never acting through a human being, and that no human has either the right nor the authority to dispense god's judgement here on earth, I would be a very happy man.

One of the most intelligent things regarding religion I've ever read and would probably save a billion lives in our lifetime alone.

 

[George Wallace]

The hadith that I found, is very much different imo. It has now become a pet project, but finding tafsir of hadith is tough. I want to see which arabic words were used, because it could make a huge difference ie spiritual vs physical fight etc and see when and who it was said to.

Abdullah

As English has evolved over the centuries, as has other languages, the original meanings of some words have changed over time and with context.  It is likely that the Arabic languages are no different.  This would be compounded, as well, as more words are added to a language to differentiate between the various nuances of a series of words for a certain thing. 

 

[jollyjacktar]

One of the most intelligent things regarding religion I've ever read and would probably save a billion lives in our lifetime alone.

I'm with you 100% on this one. 

 

[AbdullahD]

So if I understand it correctly Islamic scholars take it upon themselves to decipher the Koran and can basically come up with different rules and laws on their own? Like a thou shall not pokemon ruling?

As English has evolved over the centuries, as has other languages, the original meanings of some words have changed over time and with context.  It is likely that the Arabic languages are no different.  This would be compounded, as well, as more words are added to a language to differentiate between the various nuances of a series of words for a certain thing.

George is 100% right, Arabic has changed over the last 1,400 years. So arabic speaking people who read the Quran and Hadith's are not getting the full understanding. It has not changed quite as much as english, but it is still changed.

Not all Islamic scholars are qualified to decipher the Quran and on top of that those qualified to decipher the Quran may, not be eligible to decipher Hadiths because they are two different areas of studies. A rough break down in order of easiness to toughest  (roughly) is as follows and levels of knowledge.

1-Hafiz; someone who has memorized the Quran and nothing else, he can simply recite the entire Quran by memory. That is all, he may not even understand what he is saying, which is usually the case in areas like Pakistan and India.

2-Qari; Qari's have perfected the pronunciation and intonation of recitation of the Quran and nothing else, albeit sometimes they are also taught the correct way to perform prayer.

3-Alim; they usually have done 6 years of studies on average, usually only taking one month off a year for Ramadan and then 5 or 6 days a week in studies at Madrasah's or Darul Uloom's which are were the majority of Islamic scholars are certified in our own rites.

4-Mufti; they have completed their Alim studies and have usually done the Hafiz studies as well. They have performed more in depth studies and are able to give Quran tafsir on the spot due to extensive studies. But very rarely will they make their own. Mufti's have completed studies in the arabic language from the time of the prophet pbuh, to understand the linguistic nuances of the Quran to some extent and the historical context of the verses of when where and why the verse came down. Now mufti studies usually take an extra 2 or 3 years on top of Alim studies, but they can continue for many many years depending on how deep they wish to go.

Some Mufti's specialize in Quranic tafsir, or explanation of Hadiths, or the different legal rulings, or different spiritual aspects and how they pertain in this day and age. So just because someone is a Mufti doesnt mean he will create a explanation for you, but it does mean generally he can give you one from one of the tafsirs already in existence. But having said that, you have to go to the right Alim for what you wish to understand...

Now I have big and serious issues with people who circumvent 8-10 years of studies and make up their own opinions on the Quran and Hadiths. I dont mind anyone taking time to do these studies and give Tafsir, but until a person understands the language and context fully, I believe they should keep their yap shut.

Abdullah

 

[George Wallace]

Interesting commentary by an Australian politician, Kirralie Smith:

http://vidmax.com/video/145275--Some-people-are-calling-me-divisive-for-pointing-out-that-Islam-is-divisive-Kirralie-Smith-absolutely-destroys-the-hypocritical-liberals-attacking-her-over-exposing-Islam

 

[YZT580]

Now I have big and serious issues with people who circumvent 8-10 years of studies and make up their own opinions on the Quran and Hadiths. I dont mind anyone taking time to do these studies and give Tafsir, but until a person understands the language and context fully, I believe they should keep their yap shut.

Abdullah

Your prejudices are showing. That is a totally arrogant statement.  By the same token, you will agree that you have no right to comment regarding Christianity and about the Jewish faith since you have not put 8 or 10 years into studying these faiths.

One of the leaders of ISIS was asked why he became radicalized.  (He was a well-educated gentleman).  His reply:"I read the Quran"  and that is what it says.  You can preach all you want about ISIS not presenting the true face of Islam to the world but a simple reading of your book reveals a text chock full of hate; a book that ridicules all those who do not follow its tenets, a book that authorizes its followers to murder all those who do not follow its teachings and a book that presents an self-confessed pedophile as an example for others to follow. It doesn't take 10 years to discover the hate.  But maybe it takes that amount of study to discover love or respect for others that don't think as the prophet would have liked. Tell me, is one of the names for God in the Quron Father? 

 

[AbdullahD]

Interesting commentary by an Australian politician, Kirralie Smith:

http://vidmax.com/video/145275--Some-people-are-calling-me-divisive-for-pointing-out-that-Islam-is-divisive-Kirralie-Smith-absolutely-destroys-the-hypocritical-liberals-attacking-her-over-exposing-Islam

It is always interesting to me when political parties or politically active people quote the Quran and do not stop to think it is also in other holy books.

I always thought the PR handlers would want to avoid that stuff. But then again if the average voter they are going after buys it hook line and sinker, they wont look in their own closets.

Thus those awkward questions wont be asked... meh maybe I am arrogant. I sometimes wonder if showing those same style verses in other religions would help this bigotry, but I cant bring myself to think bigotry and ignorance is the right answer to bigotry and ignorance.

Oh for the record im not saying all people who dislike Islam and Muslims are ignorant bigots. I am just saying there is a faction wether large or small who are.

Abdullah

Ps my threshold for calling politicians and other educated peoples bigots is much lower, because they have teams of peoples or should understand these nuances. I am also not necessarily saying this lady is a bigot either. I was talking generally. I also expect to be called a bigot by the membership here if I ever make such ignorant statements about other religions. So this stick goes both ways, the ignorant and poor normal folks get a bigger lee way.