OldSolduer
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Get it right - they were resisting!!!
Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)
- Thread starter George Wallace
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No, but pretty much any offense not involving actual immediate injury may not be wise to try to enforce in the moment.
Yeah, but if you’re gonna go violent on public order enforcement, you’d better have what you need in place.
An event like this would be run by a critical incident commander, who also likely had given specific direction about thresholds for arrest or other enforcement action in order to have a firm grip on what’s happening big picture.
I agree that what we saw here was all kinds of wrong. I just don’t think these officers, in this situation, were in a good place to try to take enforcement action given the totality of the situation. There are lots of ways this could have gotten worse from a simple spark like that. I hope that for future protests, police posture is ramped up so that they can act more decisively.
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A couple of additional observations.
The clip is about 6 minutes long. By the end of the clip there seemed to be about two dozen uniforms on the scene and they had started to form containment lines. This apparently caused some angst among the youngsters. They were contained by elders.
The second observation was the use of a woman with a stroller to break the containment. The woman with the stroller approached one of the lines looking to pass. One of the elders, complete with shemagh and flag, claimed the children as his and asked for them all to be let through. The containment was disrupted and other young women then asked that they also be allowed to pass and were denied.
Women and children first is a thing.
The clip is about 6 minutes long. By the end of the clip there seemed to be about two dozen uniforms on the scene and they had started to form containment lines. This apparently caused some angst among the youngsters. They were contained by elders.
The second observation was the use of a woman with a stroller to break the containment. The woman with the stroller approached one of the lines looking to pass. One of the elders, complete with shemagh and flag, claimed the children as his and asked for them all to be let through. The containment was disrupted and other young women then asked that they also be allowed to pass and were denied.
Women and children first is a thing.
Good observations. We may have seen the very early part of things going sideways, with more resources being brought in to respond, including containment and/or moving the crowd out of there. These things can happen pretty fast.
EDIT TO ADD: watching it fully through again, yeah, there was a civilian behind the officers who looked to have been shouting back at the couple angry young dudes. I’ll firm up on I don’t think the threat was to the cops.
Note that when more police officers arrive and start to form a line, the ones who were isolated at the front of the store move in through the new line. That also leaves most of the cops on the new front line wearing helmets- bike cops can be a subtle but useful way to move people in with a bit more PPE without it being an obvious escalation.
There’s also ‘self policing’ from cooler heads within the crowd, which is pretty typical when you have a small core of hotheads.
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Not to suggest the old Metro force handled things better, or worse, than the one of today. But, from what I remember, they were different.
I have in-laws in the Wilson Heights area. Historically, that's one of the quietest areas of Metro. Now, there is a pretty heavy, and continuous, police presence.
Quirky
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This just looks like healthy diversity to me, it's going to make our country a world leader something something. Pretty soon the government will be full diverse and this will be normal, we just aren't a 3rd world country yet.
Aaaaand there it is.
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Boiling frog?
Is this protesting, or is it denying others’ right to freely pass without threatening acts that, for the moment, seem explainable as ‘just words’…
What are you talking about? I’m clearly not siding with the conduct. I’m taking about purely tactical decisions about whether, in the moment, something can be enforced sufficiently effectively and sufficiently safely for police and the public for the juice to be worth the squeeze, in the bigger picture of what’s going on overall. You’re well outside your arcs on this one.
The mall is private property. Pretty much everyone there is committing, at a minimum, criminal code mischief and provincial trespass, and some are committing crim code causing a disturbance and utter threats. And, it is also a protest, albeit one that, IMHO, is unlawful because of its infliction on private property.
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We have nowhere near the problems that have cropped up in a few places in Europe.
What the establishment has to avoid is the appearance of taking the side of protestors.
What the establishment has to avoid is the appearance of taking the side of protestors.
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Quirky
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They aren't protestors, they are a mob.
Not all diversity is bad. I don't see Indians, Asians, Ukrainians etc coming here and consistently harassing people and shutting down streets for their 'protests'. There is something about this group and Israel defending itself that is...off. They can't come here like everyone else and just leave their problems at the door.
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As this Italian politician found out a while back
Italian politician offended after Holocaust survivor said Jesus was Jewis
Fabio Tuiach, a member of the municipal council of Trieste, made the comment ahead of a council vote on a motion proposing to award Auschwitz survivor Liliana Segre the city’s honorary citizenship.
www.jpost.com
Looks like additional charges laid in the Ottawa case. The same youth suspect is also now accused of one count of facilitating a terrorist activity, and two counts of possession explosives. Source is Mackenzie Grey with Global.
KevinB
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Not going violent, simply enforcing the law of the land, if THEY go violent, then an appropriate amount of force may be used to detain them, and arrest as needed.
Or didn't want to upset the 'oppressed'
Agreed, but in Canada you guys are pretty much the only ones with guns, so when push comes to shove - the guy with the gun wins
Thought I am not sure if your UoF allow for crowds to be considered a lethal threat as disparity of force. I guess I just have zero tolerance for terrorists and their supporters, and I wouldn't shed a tear if a bunch of them got gunned down.
Again, the decision made by the individual officers who were, at that point, essentially isolated and surrounded, is based on THEIR risk assessment. They had a way better sense of the whole thing than you or I do watching on a screen.
Or didn't want to upset the 'oppressed'
Agreed, but in Canada you guys are pretty much the only ones with guns, so when push comes to shove - the guy with the gun wins
Thought I am not sure if your UoF allow for crowds to be considered a lethal threat as disparity of force. I guess I just have zero tolerance for terrorists and their supporters, and I wouldn't shed a tear if a bunch of them got gunned down.
No, the Criminal Code doesn’t allow us to shoot into a crowd. A perception of death or grievous bodily harm has to be specific and articulable. If it gets to the point where you’re shooting into a crowd, you’ve already lost. As we see in the video, it’s likely the officers there knew backup was making its way and was just a couple minutes out. Which is both not a lot of time, and an eternity. Which one of those depends on what’s going on.
KevinB
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Ack -
Pendant: Shooting specific threat individuals in a crowd isn't shooting into a crowd.
I mean I'd prefer a minigun for just shooting into a crowd...
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But you were saying it wasn’t worth the police’s effort to do anything…to sit my ‘boiling frog’ comment…we just accept nothing being done until one day, it crosses the/somebody’s line.
My commentary is more op/Strat in nature. Ack your tactical lens. Isn’t the wait for Strat-level dosomethingitis going to make it much harder to address….tactical through Strat/pol?
