Kalashnikov still the best?

[chrisf]

Ref, a US company producing AK's...hmmm  could be possible, but if its not under official contract, no one will ever admit it.  There are US units armed with Eastern bloc weapons and trained to fight with Eastern bloc weapons...and following that logic who wants an old crappy AK-47, wouldnt you rather fight with a brand new AK? And how will you get it without letting people know you have them? And if you were to insert insurgent forces behind enemy lines would you arm them with M-16s or AK's?  Not so crazy if you think abiut it.... ;D

I know there was a manufacturer producing an M16 varient that fired 7.62Soviet at one point for special forces use, no idea what became of it. I seem to recall that there were some issues with the magazine not coming out of the housing easily.

On the subject of acquiring AKs, I'm certain that any western power (Particularly the united states) has enough captured AKs (And pretty much any other soviet small arms you can imagine) stashed away to fill their needs.

 

[Praetorian]

The AK-47 vs M16 is an ageless debate that is ageless for a single reason, you cannot say without a doubt which one is superior.
The M16 was designed for Western Proffesional armies who take the time and money to train their troops.
The AK-47 was made for the Peasant army, the ones in the Desert hide-outs and Rice Padddies, and it does its job extremely well.

If your looking for a precision killing tool for trained regulars, the M16/C7 is the way to go.
If there is a need to arm an untrained freedom fighter, the durable and reliable "ole AK" is unbeatable.

To say one is better then the other is like saying the NY Yankees are better then the Montreal Canadiens.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Let's not confuse 'best' for 'popular'. Just because everyone has one, doesn't make it the best. Just the cheapest, most poular and most available.

 

[Five-to-One]

I agree with Recce guy

Also, i'll see if I can find a link but I remember seeing a program on Discovery (thats right, Discovery Channel) about the pros and cons of both those guns and they came to the conclusion that the m-16 was an overall better urban combat weapon due to its accuracy and reliability in a properly maintained enviroment, there was alot more but I forget it and that is all needed said for weapons in Iraq

 

[HItorMiss]

FACT: US companies even now are manufacturing AKM receivers (yes they are stamped and will go the 7.62 and 5.45 versions), and these are primarily for the civvy market in semi auto. The assault rifle market is even bigger now than it ever was in the USA, and good on 'em for it too!

As for the AK guru himself, ole M.T. Kalashnikov, himself, take a look at the MP43/44, and you'll see where he got his ideas from, that and from other captured German engineers. I rate him as a 2/10, nothing more than a copycat, and way over rated.

After firing 10s of thousands of rds out of AKs (almost every variant, including the 5.56x45mm Chi Com contact rifles for Nigeria and the 5.45 AKS74, etc) over the past 25 yrs (and writing a few articles too), its not that great of a rifle.



Enough said about him, eh.

Wes

And with that People I think we have our concensus, Mr Allen is in my mind an expert on weapons and how they work. He says it's not as good then it's not as good (The man just said he has fired them all and more rounds then I am sure anyone else here has) I think this little debate on which is king in dead.

As for US Forces using, I don't know I'm not in Iraq nor did I see any in Afghanistan using them either.

 

[Jungle]

I know there was a manufacturer producing an M16 varient that fired 7.62Soviet at one point for special forces use, no idea what became of it. I seem to recall that there were some issues with the magazine not coming out of the housing easily.

I posted a link in my post on page 1 of this thread...
Anyway, here's the pic of the rifle:

 

[3rd Horseman]

Wes Allen appears to hit the nail on the head and I hate to admit it but I also agree with recceguy (first time for everything).

  The true measure of the weapon is a simple question. Would you rather have the guy opposing you in the assult firing at you with an AK or a C7. In my experience I preferred the AK in my ENs hands and a C7 in mine, those poor sods with their crappy AK and poor ammo did not stand a chance, I am here today due to this fact.

 

[Guest]

AK47 is best because it is the most sexiest of weapons ever.  You dig????  Some of you seem to be too preoccupied with being effective.  This is irrelevant in todays world of being sexy. 8)

 

[TCBF]

Twenty two years ago, I hunted woodchucks in Ontario with four rifles: A Savage 112 V series J SS bolt in .22/250 with a Tasco 6-18x, and three .223 Rem semis:

1.  Ruger Mini 14.( courtesy John C. Garrand and Bill Ruger).
2.  Colt AR-15. (courtesy Eugene Stoner, Sullivan, Fremont).
3.  Norinco Type 56-2 (AK variant, courtesy Mikhail Timofeyevich Kalashnikov and the ChiComs, and I think maybe Allan Lever).

The Ar-15 beat all for accuracy, as does the rest of the M16/C7 family.
The Mini 14 was next, followed by the K gun.  Short sight radius was the K guns disadvantage, otherwise, it may have someday matched the Mini 14. Mine, anyway.

I think Kalashnikov's best gun was the PK series myself.

As for designers - john Moses Browning has yet to be matched. 

I would like to trial the AN-94 Nikonov, and the new Chicom IWs.  But I aint loosing any sleep over it, and I STILL own a FN C1A1.

Of course, if, unlike the 6,000,000 people who live in Switzerland, you think an Army rifle should be just a big club with a bore buttoned through it, you may disagree.

Tom

 

[3rd Horseman]

And if that woodchuck had a rifle which one would you give him and which one would you keep...sounds a little like Aylmer Fud stuff.

 

[Big Red]

However, as far as I know, US soldiers do not prefer the AK - they prefer the MP5! ...Or the long-range .50 cal sniper guns, for their 'look cool' factor (they are completely blinded to the difficulty involved in actually doing sniper work).

You doubt? Top two choices among US marines and rangers I worked with...

This was what year?  I've yet to see anyone carrying a MP5 outside the wire besides Brit security contractors who missed out on the Iranian Embassy siege.

US soldiers blinded to the difficulty of sniper work? They are the ones out there doing it everyday so I'm not sure how this comment makes any sense.  Compare the amount of trigger time the average US sniper has to anyone else out there right now.

This is the US military not a Choose your Own Adventure book. The vast majority of troops are using what they are issued and it has nothing to do with LCF.

In my experience I preferred the AK in my ENs hands and a C7 in mine, those poor sods with their crappy AK and poor ammo did not stand a chance, I am here today due to this fact.

:  Please.  The AK kills people just as well as any other rifle.  Maybe the 'poor sods' just lacked training.

I think Kalashnikov's best gun was the PK series myself.

Of course, if, unlike the 6,000,000 people who live in Switzerland, you think an Army rifle should be just a big club with a bore buttoned through it, you may disagree.

Yeah, I'll carry a PKM over a GPMG any day.

Lately we've had some catastrophic failures with the Sigs so my trust in them is waning...

 

[1feral1]

AK47 is best because it is the most sexiest of weapons ever.  You dig????  Some of you seem to be too preoccupied with being effective.  This is irrelevant in todays world of being sexy. 8)

Sexy? You dig? What planet are you from/on/

Judging by your profile, with no military expereince, stay EXACTLY where you are. I don't know if you are serious or 'naught', but at 47, you should no better than wasting space not only on this site, but this thread in particular.

:

Wes

 

[teddy49]

I saw a picture somewhere with the picture of a Chinese conscript after his "indestructable" AK had a breech explosion and sent shrapnel into his head/face.

I've yet to see or hear of that happening with the M16 family.

Really, go to Page 3 of this thread.  A KB can happen to anything.

http://getoffthex.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/182106881/m/523108458/p/3

 

[3rd Horseman]

:  Please.  The AK kills people just as well as any other rifle.  Maybe the 'poor sods' just lacked training.

Big Red,
    They were hardend fighters for over 2 1/2 years, it was the poor weapon and ammo. I beg to differ the AK does not kill as effectively as a C7. all the rest I concure

 

[1feral1]

However, as far as I know, US soldiers do not prefer the AK - they prefer the MP5! ...Or the long-range .50 cal sniper guns, for their 'look cool' factor (they are completely blinded to the difficulty involved in actually doing sniper work).

Hey Centurian, I am now beginning to wonder where you are dreaming some of your posts up. I am not trying to get ignorant here, but in reality, think before you post, as its your credibility which is a stake here, and it is not looking the greatest with this post especially.

Why for the life of me would someone prefer a 9mm rd over 7.62mm, regardless if its the M43 or NATO types. 9mm is simply a SMG or pistol rd for close range personal protection with pisss poor penetration and short effective range.  My first rds down range with an MP5 was in 1980, so I know where I am coming from. I have encountered various version of the weapon here on our shores, and I will not comment on that any further.

The MP5 and its bizarre variants does have its place in todays weapons pecking order, but generic issue to 'soldiers at large' is NOT one of them.

Secondly, whats with the US LCF for .50 sniping and then condemming the US sniping entegrity? Let me assure you their snipers are trained well, exposed to the enemy threat every hour of the day (as you sit back and type out meaningless posts on here) and have more kills to their credit than any other allied force in the MEAO.

With your rather cheap comment, not taking into consideration the trauma, fear, hard work, long hours, fatigue and risking their own lives these guys expereince, well what you have said has really rubbed me the wrong way, and what you have expressed is entirely unprofessional. With the TI you claim to have in your profile, well in that alone, I am at a loss of words...

I think slagging the Yanks is in bad taste (afterall they are the ones FIGHTING and DYING there, not you). Without the material or references, aside from a biased personal opinion and/or crap armchair wannabee fantasy magazines which seem to bend the truth at the best of times, your claims here are worthless.

I'll stick to reading military reports on the effectivness of Allied combat power on the enemy rahter than rumours or crap rags which rely on shock value to get ratings and sales.

Maybe if you had accesss to such, you'd change your tune. So if you are going to gob off, back it up with a sold reference. Slagging and assumptions are just not on, and do nothing but show contempt and lack of respect for other professional soldiers in their own Defence forces fighting in yet another unpopular war.


Wes

 

[TCBF]

"Lately we've had some catastrophic failures with the Sigs so my trust in them is waning..."

- I assume you mean pistols, not rifles.  Bizzare.  9mm?  Aluminium, but still had a good reputation for years.  If it was in .40 SW, the slide should say "Made in USA" and be made of steel.  The frame is aluminium and was prob made in Germany.  Hopefully, nobody made a SIG in 10mm...

Tom

 

[Dissident]

I've yet to see or hear of that happening with the M16 family.

You have now.

I have held in my hands a C7A1 that had a malfunction and "blown up". It did not grenade, but the reciever was deformed and the mag shot out of the bottom. The cause of the malfunction is not yet know, but the rifle had just made it throught the ATI and was properly maintained. It looked liek a round or 2 went off in the reciever without beng chambered.

I was not there when it happened, but the troop is fine, he was wearing his balistic eyeware at the time.

 

[Big Red]

"Lately we've had some catastrophic failures with the Sigs so my trust in them is waning..."

- I assume you mean pistols, not rifles.  Bizzare.  9mm?  Aluminium, but still had a good reputation for years.  If it was in .40 SW, the slide should say "Made in USA" and be made of steel.  The frame is aluminium and was prob made in Germany.  Hopefully, nobody made a SIG in 10mm...

Suprisingly it's the rifles we've had some problems with. Things like a gas tube sheared in half, bolt carrier cracked and siezed inside of a reciever, etc.  Problems you wouldn't expect from a rifle that retails for 3k in Canada.

 

[TCBF]

"Suprisingly it's the rifles we've had some problems with. Things like a gas tube sheared in half, bolt carrier cracked and siezed inside of a reciever, etc.  Problems you wouldn't expect from a rifle that retails for 3k in Canada."

- M855 Ball should not be that different from the Swiss 5.6mm GP-90, nor Mk 262 for pressure.  What gives? 

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

i do not claim to be a weapons expert here but just because it is the most massed produced and copied item in the world does not make it the best.

the ak is cheaper and more readily found on the used weapons market since the fall of the curtain and since the countries already had the factories and tooling set to make they just turned out more of them.
massed produced does not always equal the best out there.