Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

[Haggis]

Is anyone else surprised that there is such a thing as "concealed carry" insurance available? Ain't free enterprise glorious?

A few years ago I was visiting a good friend who was posted OUTCAN in the US (she is a member here as well).  On arrival, and knowing in advance what I do for a living on civvy street, her American boyfriend struck up a discussion about CCW training, equipment, laws and liabilities (they lived in a "shall issue" state, about 40 minutes apart).  I asked if he had CCW insurance.  He said it wasn't required in his state but that "I suppose my house insurance would cover me".  That's a pretty big risk living in the most litigious country on Earth.

At the other end of the scale, a retired CAF Infantry Sgt friend who lives and works in one of the most gun friendly states in the union has his CCW permit and is insured up the hoop for it as a condition of licencing.

 

[mariomike]

The radical left is way too quick to push half truths together and rush in with false conclusions.

Everyone has a opinion. This is the only fact known to the public,

On August 26, Rittenhouse was arrested in his home state of Illinois on charges of first-degree intentional homicide in the shootings on August 25, according to Lake County, Illinois Clerk of Courts public records. He was labeled a "fugitive from justice" in the complaint, which states that he "fled the state of Wisconsin with intent to avoid prosecution for that offense." He was assigned a public defender and initially scheduled to appear at an extradition hearing on August 28. On that day, a judge granted a request to delay the hearing until September 25. Under Wisconsin state law, he would be charged as an adult.

The complaint against him lists six charges, including first-degree intentional homicide, first-degree reckless homicide, and attempted homicide. Each felony charge comes with a "use of a dangerous weapon" modifier, which invokes a Wisconsin law that prescribes an addition of no more than five years of imprisonment for each of the charges if found guilty. Possession of a dangerous weapon as a minor, a misdemeanor, is also charged.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenosha_protests#Fatal_shooting_of_protesters

As always, all suspects are considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

A fugitive that turned himself over to the police as soon as possible and then released that night, yea that really "fleeing"

 

[mariomike]

For anyone interested in reading the criminal complaint filed by Kenosha County, Wisconsin,
https://journaltimes.com/click-here-to-read-the-criminal-complaint-filed-against-kyle-rittenhouse-in-kenosha-county/pdf_46ff33b7-0bd7-55e6-8f2f-9ded0582862f.html

A fugitive that turned himself over to the police as soon as possible and then released that night, yea that really "fleeing"

He is wanted in Kenosha County on accusations of first-degree intentional homicide after having "fled the state of Wisconsin with the intent to avoid prosecution for that offense," according to court documents.
https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-protests-for-racial-justice/2020/08/27/906566596/alleged-kenosha-shooter-fervently-supported-blue-lives-joined-local-militia

 

[brihard]

For anyone interested in reading the criminal complaint filed by Kenosha County, Wisconsin,
https://journaltimes.com/click-here-to-read-the-criminal-complaint-filed-against-kyle-rittenhouse-in-kenosha-county/pdf_46ff33b7-0bd7-55e6-8f2f-9ded0582862f.html

Interesting, thank you. No real game changers in that. It does sound as if the first shooting occurred in the context of the accused trying to remove himself from the situation, and with the person shot reaching to try to grab his gun.

I'm not sure how Wisconsin law will play out a self defense claim in the case where the accused was unlawfully in possession of the firearm- so far as I can tell a 17 year old cannot legally open carry an AR in Wisconsin.

The two murder charges are both first degree/intentional. I don't know how the hell they think they can make that case in light of the shooter being in continuous retreat. His counsel will have an easy time arguing that he reasonably perceived an immediate threat to his safety.

I think he faces the greatest jeopardy in the first shooting. The second/third seem much more clear cut.

 

[Jarnhamar]

For anyone interested in reading the criminal complaint filed by Kenosha County, Wisconsin,

Criminal records of the two victims are interesting too.

Huber
2012
1. Second degree recklessly endangering safety, modifier use of a weapon and domestic abuse
2. Strangulation and suffocation, modifier domestic abuse
3. False imprisonment, modifiers domestic abuse and use of a dangerous weapon
4. Battery, modifier domestic abuse and use of a dangerous weapon
5. Disorderly conduct, modifier use of a dangerous weapon and domestic abuse
6. Disorderly conduct, modifier domestic abuse

2018
1. Battery, modifier repeater and domestic abuse
2. Disorderly conduct, modifier repeater and domestic abuse

It's just supposition but I don't feel like he was trying to make a citizens arrest.


The other gentlemen who passed away apparently has an open criminal case on battery, disorderly conduct and domestic abuse charges but I haven't seen or read anything about that shooting.

 

[mariomike]

Interesting, thank you.

For those of us of a certain age, it reminds me a little bit of the "subway vigilante" aka "four on the floor".

Criminal records of the two victims is interesting too.

Thank-you. Is that for two? I only see Huber mentioned.

Can you post a link to your source of information?

 

[Jarnhamar]

For those of us of a certain age, it reminds me a little bit of the "subway vigilante" aka "four on the floor".

Thank-you. Is that for two? I only see Huber mentioned.

Can you post a link to your source of information?

Huber's criminal record was up on the Youtube video from Donut Operator posted earlier. The other was just a statement pulled off a news site.

 

[mariomike]

Huber's criminal record was up on the Youtube video from Donut Operator posted earlier. The other was just a statement pulled off a news site.

If you don't mind me asking, who is "Donut Operator"?

 

[Jarnhamar]

He's a hardcore PC gamer (also ex-cop and SWAT team member).

His video and summary of the incident is posted on the first post of this thread, you should check out the video.

https://army.ca/forums/threads/132908.0.html

 

[mariomike]

Saw this in Canadian gun politics,

But two people were murdered and a couple of reasons why are that the kid was mentally ill and he exercized his right to carry his AR-15 on Main street.

How do you know that?

 

[Donald H]

When you map out the terrain where Huber smashed Rittenhouse with his skateboard, 200m more in the direction that Rittenhouse was walking was a fleet of police tactical response vehicles and cruisers and what appeared to be a very large police force.  I have a hard time buying the argument that Huber and Grosskreutz we’re trying to effect a citizen’s arrest for Rosenbaum’s shooting earlier, as the most prudent action would have been for one of the observers of the first event to run towards the police concentration to identify Rittenhouse to police.  I suspect that had they done so, neither Huber nor Grosskreutz would have been shot, Huber fatally.

I agree with FJAG and others, there is enough that went on in the incident that conviction of Rittenhouse’s murder charge is likely not the slam dunk that many believe it to be.

:2c:

Regards
G2G

Good2Golf, you asked on another thread why I refer to the shooter as mentally ill.
I had heard the suggestion by the media somewhere and I then thought that it was accurate, and so repeated it. However, I would suggest that me proclaiming he had to be mentally ill is no more egregious than proclaiming he was acting in self defense or he deliberately committed homocide, as he has been charged. Suggesting that he is mentally ill is not my decision to make and so if it's considered objectionable then I won't repeat it here on this thread.

 

[Good2Golf]

There’s a difference in word use when one says someone was behaving in a manner the makes others question their sanity/mental health, compared to repeatedly and consistently using it as an adjective phrase about the individual. It’s a free world so if you feel comfortable continuing to use it, keep going, however, others may judge you as purporting unfounded accusations without anything other than ‘it’s my opinion.’

:2c:

Regards
G2G

 

[Brad Sallows]

>This is the only fact known to the public,

Every second of video is a fact known to the public, unless you believe it is CGI.

 

[Donald H]

There’s a difference in word use when one says someone was behaving in a manner the makes others question their sanity/mental health, compared to repeatedly and consistently using it as an adjective phrase about the individual. It’s a free world so if you feel comfortable continuing to use it, keep going, however, others may judge you as purporting unfounded accusations without anything other than ‘it’s my opinion.’

:2c:

Regards
G2G

The shooter's defense so far seems to be 'self defense' instead of claiming mental illness, but so far that's probably not official.

:cheers:

 

[Brad Sallows]

>I would suggest that me proclaiming he had to be mentally ill is no more egregious than proclaiming he was acting in self defense or he deliberately committed homocide

You suggest incorrectly.  I can comfortably conclude from the available video that he was attempting to retreat, and acted in self-defence.  If self-defence is impermissible after clearly attempting to retreat - regardless of any duty to do so or not - then self-defence is entirely toothless.

So there is evidence for that conclusion.  Evidence for assertion of mental illness?

Conventional media fuck stuff up regularly.  Read and listen to media with that in mind.

 

[Donald H]

I can comfortably conclude from the available video that he was attempting to retreat, and acted in self-defence.

Which video Brad? The one you refer to can't be a video of him shooting a person in the head and then radioing that "I just killed somebofy". (exact words may be different)

I don't know if another video exists but maybe you do?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Which video Brad? The one you refer to can't be a video of him shooting a person in the head and then radioing that "I just killed somebofy". (exact words may be different)

I don't know if another video exists but maybe you do?

Here is a suggestion:

Why not use Google (a fantastic search engine btw) and watch every video presently available that covers the incident?  There are a number of great videos out there that capture the entirety of this event.  Maybe then, you can formulate an opinion with a complete set of facts.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>The one you refer to can't be a video of him shooting a person in the head and then radioing that "I just killed somebofy".

I don't know of one which shows Rittenhouse shooting Rosenbaum in the head.  What is amply available is the one in which Rosenbaum chases Rittenhouse in amongst some parked cars, and a shot fire by someone other than Rittenhouse is heard.  Marry that up with what McGinnis had to say: "McGinnis said that the unarmed guy (Rosenbaum) was trying to get the defendant’s gun." 

I'm comfortable with "reasonable attempt to retreat" and "self-defence".

 

[FJAG]

This maybe should have it's own thread but seems to go in the same vein as vigilanteish people showing up at protests and doing stupid things that lead to their deaths.

In Portland today a large group of Trumpers decided to drive through a BLM protest. Amongst the crowd were a number of members of Patriot Prayer who are far right wingers with a history of these types of things.

Amongst that group was an individual named Aaron Danielson (but also identified as Jay Bishop which allegedly is a pseudonym used within the group) who together with a friend was walking around the downtown area allegedly spraying people with mace or pepper or bear spray. This is video of him being fatally shot by what was (again allegedly) an Antifa protester in response to being sprayed. This website has perhaps one of the clearest copies of the video (there's almost always a video these days) of the shooting (I take what's said in it with a barrel of salt). Note the video is in two parts with the aftermath first and the shooting a bit further on.

The shooting itself is at 1:14 of the video. Danielson is the man in light shorts and a dark shirt walking from left to right towards a person (in a light top also walking left to right) who eventually shoots him. Just before the gun shots you can see what appears to be a cloud of gas coming from Danielson and moving up and towards the shooter followed almost immediately by two gun shots. Danielson then turns away and walks a few steps before collapsing while what appears to be the shooter runs away to the right.

It's all very premature and the spin is already starting but yet another example of Darwanism at play.

:facepalm: