Kenosha Shooting - split from The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

[Weinie]

Just lucky for we Canadians who don't get to take their guns to riots on the street, so one side can kill the other! I think it's going to get a lot more violent with a lot more shootings before the election.

And then when Trump/Biden loses, why Brad, they're really going to start watering that tree of liberty with each other's blood.

Are you for real? Who says something that inane?

 

[Brad Sallows]

It's babble.  As usual, apply a little common sense: hundreds of city-nights of riots so far, and very few killings.  A commonly overlooked question: if set of factors X makes outcome Y likely, and X is already amply in evidence, why hasn't Y already occurred?

 

[QV]

Prediction: if Trump wins, he takes a hard approach to the rioting and it’s ended inside a few weeks.  If Biden wins, he appeases some of the demands of the rioters to end the violence, which doesn’t end.

 

[Remius]

Prediction: if Trump wins, he takes a hard approach to the rioting and it’s ended inside a few weeks.  If Biden wins, he appeases some of the demands of the rioters to end the violence, which doesn’t end.

Trump is current incumbent.  Why isn’t he taking the hard approach now?

 

[mariomike]

Trump is current incumbent.  Why isn’t he taking the hard approach now?

Good question.

 

[PMedMoe]

Trump is current incumbent.  Why isn’t he taking the hard approach now?

He doesn't want to alienate his voters. 

 

[QV]

Trump is current incumbent.  Why isn’t he taking the hard approach now?

To give those responsible (state, muni) a chance to do what’s needed with federal support offered.  Exactly what a POTUS should do. 

 

[QV]

He doesn't want to alienate his voters.

Wrong.  His base would support that.  The swing voters would not. 

 

[mariomike]

He doesn't want to alienate his voters.

Distracts them from the pandemic and economy.

 

[Remius]

To give those responsible (state, muni) a chance to do what’s needed with federal support offered.  Exactly what a POTUS should do.

Interesting and convenient  that winning the election is the condition that makes Trump take a hard line.  How long has this all been going on now?  What is a reasonable time frame?

Right.

Like it or not all this has happened under his watch.  What he does and does not do is on him.  No one else.

As you said, swing voters would never go for it.  Politics.  That’s why.

Your prediction supports everything his detractors are accusing him of. 

 

[FJAG]

You're watching what you want to watch. This is the full video from Justin Dunlap: https://youtu.be/YhHbkMHsjW0?t=16 At the 20 second mark, you hear a hiss (someone sprayed mace, Dunlap moves closer and the cloud gets him opposite side of the street) but if you watch the YouTube video clock, the first round comes after the hiss but before the 21 second mark. 2nd round is fired before the 22 second mark. Simple video editing software will tell you the exact millisecond gap between the sounds, but that means the shooter already has his firearm drawn and at least at a low ready. There's no indication anywhere that the mace came from Danielson and his torso makes no rapid motion before the shots that would indicate raising a mace can and spraying unlike the shooter who made an abrupt change to shooting stance. At the end of the day, is being maced justification for deadly force? Especially when all logic points to the shooter approaching the victim with his firearm already drawn? Literally the only reason to bring the mace up is to use it as a mitigating factor to justify self-defense, when it fact the mace may have been Danielson's only chance at surviving after being approached by someone with a drawn firearm.

Sure is, and using mace as a mitigating factor for a murder is just one way of spinning an incident to fit a narrative.

Against my better judgement I'll just comment one more time on this.

No one here, much less me, is justifying a shooting in the streets of the city unless it's in self defence. I don't consider the use of the mace as factor that justifies the shooting. In fact I've conceded that the use of the mace and the shot were almost simultaneous.

What I do see quite clearly is that Danielson was moving towards the individual who we both think is the shooter while the shooter is moving obliquely. If in fact the shooter had his gun drawn and held at the low ready then Danielson should have walked away. Mace doesn't stop a bullet.

Danielson had a holster rig for his mace strapped to his right thigh which is quite obvious from the subsequent videos of him receiving first aid. One can equally spin out a fanciful theory that the shooter saw Danielson "drawing" the mace and mistook it for a gun and that he shot in self defence.

In fact one can spin out a dozen scenarios of what happened here and none of them would answer all the questions. By the accounts that are circulating there is already an individual being investigated as the probable shooter and who is an avowed Antifa member and who had previously been cited for having a loaded gun in a public place.

Let me make it perfectly clear to you what I'm saying and all that I'm saying.

When people armed with either a mace sprayer that needs a thigh holster or a gun or a paintball gun (whether containing ball bearings or not) deliberately go into an area of chaos filled with stupid people on both sides inevitably something tragic is going to happen. It did.

:worms:

 

[mariomike]

When people armed with either a mace sprayer that needs a thigh holster or a gun or a paintball gun (whether containing ball bearings or not) deliberately go into an area of chaos filled with stupid people on both sides inevitably something tragic is going to happen. It did.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

 

[brihard]

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

The prizes this year have been pretty goddamned dumb.

 

[OldSolduer]

The prizes this year have been pretty goddamned dumb deadly.

Love your quote Bri but I fixed it up a little.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The prizes this year have been pretty goddamned dumb.

You are focusing on the prizes when you should be focusing on those playing the stupid games.

 

[brihard]

You are focusing on the prizes when you should be focusing on those playing the stupid games.

There’s plenty of idiocy to be found among all factions here. It’s like a game show called “what’s the stupidest decision I can make?” and the prize is you’re dead or look like a dumbass on national TV and lose your whole livelihood in a lawsuit.

 

[Halifax Tar]

There’s plenty of idiocy to be found among all factions here. It’s like a game show called “what’s the stupidest decision I can make?” and the prize is you’re dead or look like a dumbass on national TV and lose your whole livelihood in a lawsuit.

I'm not holding one side responsible here.  The problem with the dumb/deadly prizes isn't the prizes its the people playing the game. 

If one is dumb enough to wade into that world and play those stupid games I don't have much sympathy for them if they end up deaded by someone on the other end of their political beliefs.

 

[QV]

I'm not holding one side responsible here.  The problem with the dumb/deadly prizes isn't the prizes its the people playing the game. 

If one is dumb enough to wade into that world and play those stupid games I don't have much sympathy for them if they end up deaded by someone on the other end of their political beliefs.

Not to pick on you HT, but isn't that part of the problem?  Fence sitting when clearly horrible acts are taking place?  The one side that escalated to riots/vandalism/violence was allowed to carry on for far too long, and only after it was apparent lawful authority was being supressed and failing did the other side emerge in any significant number.  One political party is paying a price for condoning, until just recently, all of this. 

 

[Donald H]

Are you for real? Who says something that inane?

I didn't make that up Weinie, it's a common threat that's heard from some Americans quite often.

I believe a situation is developing on America's streets that could easily lead to a standoff with guns. And I'm by far not the first to predict it could happen. This is a circumstance that all world leaders of countries must fear could develop. P.E. Trudeau enacted the war measures act in Canada when there was barely a hint of the necessity, compared to what is happening in the US now.

 

[Brad Sallows]

"all this has happened under his watch."

It just happened?

>What he does and does not do is on him.

True.  Applies to every level of government and the people occupying it.  If governors and mayors don't want federal assistance they can refuse it, and if it is pressed upon them they can push back to have it removed (as happened in Portland).

Many people are having a hard time squaring a consistent model of federal executive power with two major current events.  Some people want Trump to colour outside the lines to deal with COVID but to stay inside the lines for riots; others want the reverse.