Kilts and pants?

[Gunplumber]

Why does the RCN and RCAF keep trying to steal Army stuff when you have your own traditional dress? If you want to wear a kilt then join a highland regt. Just because you have a Scottish background dosnt mean you get to wear what you want. There are dress Regs, so obey the damn things. Why should I obey the orders of an officer who dosnt obey orders????
Why the hell does the Navy need a kilt? The RCN has nothing to do with Scotland.

 

[mariomike]

Why the hell does the Navy need a kilt?

Some would ask why the hell not? 

Navy Mess Kit and Kilts?
http://army.ca/forums/threads/112805.0

 

[Remius]

Why does the RCN and RCAF keep trying to steal Army stuff when you have your own traditional dress? If you want to wear a kilt then join a highland regt. Just because you have a Scottish background dosnt mean you get to wear what you want. There are dress Regs, so obey the damn things. Why should I obey the orders of an officer who dosnt obey orders????
Why the hell does the Navy need a kilt? The RCN has nothing to do with Scotland.

Here is the history of the RCAF tartan and likely why they wear it?

The story of the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) tartan goes back to January 1942. 

Group Captain Elmer G.  Fullerton, station commander of No. 9 Service Flying Training School, RCAF Station Summerside, Prince Edward Island, wanted to celebrate his Scottish heritage by organizing a “Robbie Burns Night” mess dinner. He borrowed bagpipes for his station band and searched for a suitable tartan to outfit the band in full Scottish regalia.

Group Captain Fullerton decided to design an original pattern that represented the Air Force. With coloured pencils in hand, he produced the prototype using light blue, dark blue and maroon colours. The original sample of the proposed RCAF tartan was created by Patricia Jenkins and Loom crofters of Gagetown, New Brunswick, with the Gagetown weavers also adding a white line in the design.

He then ordered a sample of the material to be sent to RCAF Headquarters in Ottawa for approval. The design was endorsed by the Air Council, and Air Vice-Marshal J. A. Sully sent it off to Scotland’s Lord Lyon, King of Arms, for approval in July 1942.

The approval was granted on August 15 and the design was officially registered as the RCAF tartan. Thus the RCAF became the first air force in the world to have its own distinctive tartan. The speed of the process from original concept to final approval in a period of eight months is truly awe-inspiring.

Since then, the distinctive RCAF tartan has been worn by members of RCAF pipe and drum bands. It is also used in other ways, including ties, mess kit cummerbunds, or ladies’ sashes

Being the junior service and a fairly new service in terms of the CAF I suppose they needed to created some traditions?  I doubt they were or are stealing from the army as I'm pretty sure that kilts are not just "army" apparel.  Like it or not our military is heavily influenced by other countries' traditions given our multicultural heritage.

 

[Old Sweat]

Here is the history of the RCAF tartan and likely why they wear it?

The story of the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) tartan goes back to January 1942. 

Group Captain Elmer G.  Fullerton, station commander of No. 9 Service Flying Training School, RCAF Station Summerside, Prince Edward Island, wanted to celebrate his Scottish heritage by organizing a “Robbie Burns Night” mess dinner. He borrowed bagpipes for his station band and searched for a suitable tartan to outfit the band in full Scottish regalia.

Group Captain Fullerton decided to design an original pattern that represented the Air Force. With coloured pencils in hand, he produced the prototype using light blue, dark blue and maroon colours. The original sample of the proposed RCAF tartan was created by Patricia Jenkins and Loom crofters of Gagetown, New Brunswick, with the Gagetown weavers also adding a white line in the design.

He then ordered a sample of the material to be sent to RCAF Headquarters in Ottawa for approval. The design was endorsed by the Air Council, and Air Vice-Marshal J. A. Sully sent it off to Scotland’s Lord Lyon, King of Arms, for approval in July 1942.

The approval was granted on August 15 and the design was officially registered as the RCAF tartan. Thus the RCAF became the first air force in the world to have its own distinctive tartan. The speed of the process from original concept to final approval in a period of eight months is truly awe-inspiring.

Since then, the distinctive RCAF tartan has been worn by members of RCAF pipe and drum bands. It is also used in other ways, including ties, mess kit cummerbunds, or ladies’ sashes

Being the junior service and a fairly new service in terms of the CAF I suppose they needed to created some traditions?  I doubt they were or are stealing from the army as I'm pretty sure that kilts are not just "army" apparel.  Like it or not our military is heavily influenced by other countries' traditions given our multicultural heritage.

My wife's late uncle was AVM Leckie's EA at the time. He described Leckie as a dour Scot who accepted the RCAF tartan with ill grace, although he finally admitted the pipes and drums put on a fine show on the tartan's debut.

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . .  I have been advised that I will be a member of the local RCAF officer's mess and I hope that there will be opportunity for me to attend various mess functions, including formal dinners. I imagine this would be considered excellent professional development!

Since your profile indicates that you are currently in the GGFG, I will assume that you are remaining in Ottawa to attend university and thus you are referring to the Officers' Mess on Gloucester Street.  A nice mess, we (a majority of the officers in the Surg Gen branch) used to do lunch there at least one Friday a month (great fish and chips) back in the late 1980s when I was posted to NDHQ - similarly we used to do the curry lunch (Wednesdays?) at the Army Mess with the same frequency.

Things have probably changed in the nearly three decades since, but back then most formal functions (i.e. mess dinners) in the Ottawa messes were organized along branch/corps/regimental (or similar organizational) lines and the participants generally limited to individuals who had those connections.  I don't recall any mess dinners held for the mess membership as a whole.  The Ottawa officers' messes were a slightly different animal than would be found on the average air base (or army or navy establishment), so you may not find it to be the traditional "home of the officer" with an older experienced officer passing on his knowledge to newly minted members of the profession of arms in a relaxed social setting after duty hours.  That older wiser officer is likely (along with the majority of his brethren) waiting to catch the bus home after work.

 

[Gunplumber]

Remius, When the Black Watch was raised in the 1720s it was the only Regt in kilts and then the rest of the Regts of Higlanders were raised and eventualy all wore kilts. I think that this would make kilts "Army" The only kilts worn when the air force was raised were by Scottish officers seconded to the service who continued to wear their Army dress as the air force didn't yet have a uniform. Later when a uniform was invented, Army officers switch over to the new dress. They did NOT continue to wear their kilt. There is no history of the air force or the navy wearing kilts. As far as I can find there is no official Royal Navy unit that wears a kilt. There are other units in the UK that wear kilts but they are Scottish (and Irish) regiments. In my books that would make it Army. So some officer decides he wants to wear a kilt in the middle of the war and it gets shot up the line and approved smacks to me of the RCAF grabbing other peoples toys. How does this make it a tradition? There have been lots of Army units who have been told they cant wear uniform items as there is no official recognition that has more basis of tradition than the RCAF has of the kilt.
As for staling from the Army lets talk about the beret. It was started in the French Army if I remember correctly and has been an Army headdress for a long time. The only non Army unit to wear it was the RAF Regiment I think. So why does the RCN and RCAF think they are allowed to steal it? I will also remind you that RCAF personnel in CANSOF in DEUs are not allowed to wear the tan beret nor even the tan patch even though it is the Regt headdress. Hypocrisy?

A proud Highlander

 

[Remius]

Remius, When the Black Watch was raised in the 1720s it was the only Regt in kilts and then the rest of the Regts of Higlanders were raised and eventualy all wore kilts. I think that this would make kilts "Army" The only kilts worn when the air force was raised were by Scottish officers seconded to the service who continued to wear their Army dress as the air force didn't yet have a uniform. Later when a uniform was invented, Army officers switch over to the new dress. They did NOT continue to wear their kilt. There is no history of the air force or the navy wearing kilts. As far as I can find there is no official Royal Navy unit that wears a kilt. There are other units in the UK that wear kilts but they are Scottish (and Irish) regiments. In my books that would make it Army. So some officer decides he wants to wear a kilt in the middle of the war and it gets shot up the line and approved smacks to me of the RCAF grabbing other peoples toys. How does this make it a tradition? There have been lots of Army units who have been told they cant wear uniform items as there is no official recognition that has more basis of tradition than the RCAF has of the kilt.
As for staling from the Army lets talk about the beret. It was started in the French Army if I remember correctly and has been an Army headdress for a long time. The only non Army unit to wear it was the RAF Regiment I think. So why does the RCN and RCAF think they are allowed to steal it? I will also remind you that RCAF personnel in CANSOF in DEUs are not allowed to wear the tan beret nor even the tan patch even though it is the Regt headdress. Hypocrisy?

A proud Highlander

You do realize that the RCAF pipes and drums is the only part of the RCAF that actually wears the kilt right? And that they've been wearing it for some 80 years now? Or should we have a pipes and drums band that is in trousers?

Kilts aren't army. They're Scottish. Just because they adopted a tartan and kilt doesn't mean they "stole" it from the army. 

CSOR is adopting tomahawks as symbol of their unit.  Stealing? Or developing their traditions?  Not that much different from the RCAF having an official tartan.

 

[Gunplumber]

Yes Im ok with the Pipes and Drums wearing the kilt. What this discussion has developed from is RCN and RCAF guys wearing a kilt in mess dress with no authorization what so ever and no right to based on the traditions of the RCAF and RCN. If a Pipe band member wanted to wear a kilt in mess dress and it was authorized its fine. That is what I am getting at.

 

[George Wallace]

However, Mess Kit and Service Dress are not the only forms of Dress allowed in the Mess.  Proper civilian attire, even formal civilian attire, can be worn.  Someone attending a formal Mess function that does not demand Mess Kit, could wear formal Highland attire, including the kilt.  >

 

[Tait]

Since your profile indicates that you are currently in the GGFG, I will assume that you are remaining in Ottawa to attend university and thus you are referring to the Officers' Mess on Gloucester Street.  A nice mess, we (a majority of the officers in the Surg Gen branch) used to do lunch there at least one Friday a month (great fish and chips) back in the late 1980s when I was posted to NDHQ - similarly we used to do the curry lunch (Wednesdays?) at the Army Mess with the same frequency.

Things have probably changed in the nearly three decades since, but back then most formal functions (i.e. mess dinners) in the Ottawa messes were organized along branch/corps/regimental (or similar organizational) lines and the participants generally limited to individuals who had those connections.  I don't recall any mess dinners held for the mess membership as a whole.  The Ottawa officers' messes were a slightly different animal than would be found on the average air base (or army or navy establishment), so you may not find it to be the traditional "home of the officer" with an older experienced officer passing on his knowledge to newly minted members of the profession of arms in a relaxed social setting after duty hours.  That older wiser officer is likely (along with the majority of his brethren) waiting to catch the bus home after work.

Thank you, my lord Blackadder! I am in Ottawa and I'm glad to hear it's a nice mess. Also useful to know that there aren't many formal functions that I could attend - this may influence my decision to purchase mess kit.

 

[George Wallace]

Thank you, my lord Blackadder! I am in Ottawa and I'm glad to hear it's a nice mess. Also useful to know that there aren't many formal functions that I could attend - this may influence my decision to purchase mess kit.

The question does come to mind.  If you joined the GGFG, why did you not originally cross the Drill Floor and join the Camerons?  This likely would have negated the posting of these questions.

 

[Remius]

The question does come to mind.  If you joined the GGFG, why did you not originally cross the Drill Floor and join the Camerons?  This likely would have negated the posting of these questions.

I think he mentioned that he had served with the Scots Guards before.  Would make sense to join a Guard unit here I would guess.

 

[captloadie]

In the many mess dinners I have attended as an officer in the RCAF, I have seen only one member wear a kilt with their mess dress. He happened to be the main piper on the Wing, and he only wore it that way when he was piping at the Mess dinner. All other times he wore pants like the rest of us. Those officers who happen to belong to the band would where the kilt with their cut away DEU tunic.

 

[Pusser]

I think he mentioned that he had served with the Scots Guards before.  Would make sense to join a Guard unit here I would guess.

Interestingly enough, as far as I can tell, only the band in the Scots Guards wear kilts.  Everybody else wears trousers, including with mess dress.

As for items of dress in general, I don't think any one group can claim exclusive rights to any one item.  Berets were introduced in both the army and navy during WWII as a cost savings.  The wedge cap was developed by the army during the 19th century, long before planes were invented.  Although there are no Highland units in either the Navy or the Air Force, that doesn't mean a new tradition cannot be started.  Traditions always have to start somewhere and now is as good a time as any.  Although I've never seen anyone wearing a kilt in any form of Air Force uniform, except the pipe band(s), I don't see anything wrong with it for mess dress.  The wearing of kilts by naval officers is not common, but it is not unheard of either.  Again, I don't see anything wrong with it.  It is actually specifically approved in the RN, so why not here? 

 

[mariomike]

I guess they do have their practical advantages,

Navy Mess Kit and Kilts?
http://army.ca/forums/threads/112805/post-1268793#msg1268793
"I responded "there was no better garment for defecation, urination and fornication" (quoting a WWI recruiting officer) and was actually awarded a libation in that case."

 

[AKa]

Things have probably changed in the nearly three decades since, but back then most formal functions (i.e. mess dinners) in the Ottawa messes were organized along branch/corps/regimental (or similar organizational) lines and the participants generally limited to individuals who had those connections.  I don't recall any mess dinners held for the mess membership as a whole.  The Ottawa officers' messes were a slightly different animal than would be found on the average air base (or army or navy establishment), so you may not find it to be the traditional "home of the officer" with an older experienced officer passing on his knowledge to newly minted members of the profession of arms in a relaxed social setting after duty hours.  That older wiser officer is likely (along with the majority of his brethren) waiting to catch the bus home after work.

A bit off topic but...  As of two years ago, the RCAF Mess in Ottawa was holding an annual Air Force Mess Dinner.  The mess heavily subsidized it ($25/person) and a very diverse cross-section of the NCR's air community showed up.  I attended about 3-4 years ago and it was a very nice affair with a good spread of ranks from OCdt to BGen.  Just remember to grab your place card and secure it as soon as you enter the dining room.

Cheers!

 

[safetysOff]

Absolutely.    :nod:

I was  going to go as far as to mention that, largely due to Operation Honour, you'd even be free of mocking.  ;D


However, I have no dog in this, and actually don't understand the question;  I didn't know that the Air Force even had dress regs.  :dunno:

You're one to mock Op Honor journeyman, most men are dogs anyways.

 

[Journeyman]

You're one to mock Op Honor journeyman, most men are dogs anyways.

  ???

Insert generic "sorry I hurt your feelings" here.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

You're one to mock Op Honor journeyman, most men are dogs anyways.

That sounds sexist. I'm offended. Where's my safe spot?

 

[CountDC]

I have seen Navy wearing kilts with DEU.  Everyone one of them were pipers.