L.A. sheriff doesn't want off-duty deputies carrying guns while drinking!

[Ex-Dragoon]

Too late I see...all you had to do was sit back and read and listen to advice instead you wanted to be right and get the last word. :

 

[1feral1]

provoke a response.

-C/D

?

His entire history was wanting to deliberatly prevoke members in good standing, and create an audience for his own pleasure.

Thankyou Mods for the final flush.

Justice comes to those who wait!

We can all get back to normal now.

Warm regards,

Wes

 

[Niteshade]

Well My opinion is that there is a couple of issues/problems with these police officers' handling firearms while intoxicated:

1. It's dangerous. If driving drunk is dangerous, I can only imagine that handling firearems is also dangerous while intoxicated. Hand/eye co-ordination are out, equilibrium/balance is out, judgement is gone.. The list of effects of alcohol on the human body are staggering and proven. Firearms and alcohol are not a safe combination.

2. These are persons of such moral fibre, that they SHOULD know better than to have a loaded weapon on their person while they consume alcohol. If anything, a LEO should be held more accountable for their actions than a "civvie"...

I understand the difference between drinking & firing, VS. carrying while drinking, however isnt the idea behind carrying, the expectation that you MAY have to shoot the weapon? (ergo, you are drunk and having to shoot?) Could the weapon be taken from the drunken person more easily than if they were sober?

I see a big can of worms with persons carrying while drinking...

Nites

 

[Infanteer]

We prohibit the consumption of alcohol 8 hours prior to going live on ranges, so why shouldn't there be an expectation for LEO's to abide by similar regulations?

 

[Cleared Hot]

I don't know, it's pretty simple in my mind.  We arm these individuals because they have been trained and we trust their judgement.  There is no debate that excess alcohol impares judgement ergo once they have passed that point (.08 or whatever)  their judgement should no longer be trusted and the requirement/privilege of carrying should be taken away.  We do the same thing with driving i.e. we train them to drive better/more aggressively/tactically (whatever you want to call it) but we still don't let them drive while intoxicated.  I'm not talking about responsibly having a beer or two with supper, but if you know in advance you are going on a bender just use that judgement we put so much faith in and leave the firearms at home.  As for those few nights that "just happen" and the next thing you know you are over the limit, chances are (looking at the stats quoted by others above - I'm no expert) nothing adverse will happen but if it does that is what the discipline system is for... I've never been a huge fan of group punishment.

-CH

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

We prohibit the consumption of alcohol 8 hours prior to going live on ranges, so why shouldn't there be an expectation for LEO's to abide by similar regulations?

Not enough close to the same thing as you know that in less than 8 hours you will be shooting live ammo.[for FUN]
I guess those LEO's who must carry due to gang threats, etc., on thier lives should just never be able to have another beer with their friends or a glass of wine with their family.

Sounds fair....................... :

 

[Marshall]

I do not see a huge need for a banning of Firearms.. Don't those guns have a hell of a time coming out of the holsters anyways? (like a secret set of manuevers to open it?) So i'd think if most officers were that drunk to pull out their gun, maybe they would not be able to get past the security on the holster? You'd think maybe if some of these men had enough clarity in their heads to open the holster they'd also have enough to know what they are doing?

But then again, I suppose its almost second nature to them to open the holsters since they do it day and night.  :-\

 

[medaid]

Have you heard of muscle memory Marshall? I can unholster a LvIII retention half asleep. It's not that difficult once you've done it more times then you can count.

I applaud the Sheriff for attempting to help things. Obviously it's not without cause. Deputies can have drinks, they just have to have self control. Self control is the key.

 

[Infanteer]

I guess those LEO's who must carry due to gang threats, etc., on thier lives should just never be able to have another beer with their friends or a glass of wine with their family.

Sounds fair....................... :

I highly doubt if a LEO is getting trashed at a Christmas Party that he is going to be concerned about gang threats.

LEO, like soldiers, are technically on duty 24/7.  However, there are times when we are not "on duty" - I can reasonably believe that I can go out on the town when stood down.  I can't see it being different for LEOs.  If we can place a reasonable restriction like no driving while intoxicated then I don't see why it can't be extended to carrying a loaded weapon - if I can't drive I sure as hell probably shouldn't be crew commanding a LAV III.  Same goes for any member of society who is permitted to carry a firearm - if they can't legally drive, should we have an expectation of them to wield a firearm?

 

[Marshall]

Have you heard of muscle memory Marshall? I can unholster a LvIII retention half asleep. It's not that difficult once you've done it more times then you can count.

Yeah thats what I figured could happen. At work I am like a robot with certain things from repetition and its probably along the same lines?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I highly doubt if a LEO is getting trashed at a Christmas Party that he is going to be concerned about gang threats.

Pardon??..............I'm just a pathetic guard [ie. not the ONE who TOOK their freedom] and I've even ran into "ex-clients" out of province who were more than happy to point me out.

Have your hypothetical Christmas party in Kabul and then get back to me.

 

[KevinB]

I think its stupid to ban.


You trust them with keys to a car...


I've been drunk with armed - both in CF and other service - yeah not too too bright, sometimes it was required (and yes there are times that it really can be required) and other times its been social gatherings.

  However even in some pretty drunken times I have remembered guns are tools.  When I am armed I do my best to avoid where alcohol will be, not for what I would do, but people who are drunk can do.  When I drink -especially on Mil/LE only classes - I tuck the guns away for the evening.   


Being an armed professional means not getting shitfaced in public, let alone whe your armed.

 

[Infanteer]

Have your hypothetical Christmas party in Kabul and then get back to me.

Ahh...good call - cause an off-duty cop is like a Westerner downtown in a foreign, hostile country.  Haven't seen too many members of the Edmonton Police Service beheaded on the internet.

When I am armed I do my best to avoid where alcohol will be, not for what I would do, but people who are drunk can do.  When I drink -especially on Mil/LE only classes - I tuck the guns away for the evening.   

Being an armed professional means not getting shitfaced in public, let alone whe your armed.

I've edited your comment to be applicable to anyone with a weapon - if we permitted a properly trained citizen to carry, which I support, I would expect the same.

And therein lies the crux of the debate - the Sheriff's department in question is concerned that those obligations of being an "armed professional" that you pointed out aren't being met.  A little common sense can go a long way - perhaps it's not being applied in this situation?  The Sheriff's department wants to prohibit the carry while drinking - not while out of uniform period.  If a LEO feels imminent danger when he steps out of his house, he should probably re-evaluate his decision to impair himself with alcohol.  Either that, or he can always hang out with the sober cop who's got the gun....

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Lets carry on the silliness, shall we?

if I can't drive I sure as hell probably shouldn't be crew commanding a LAV III.

  Haven't seen too many members of the Edmonton Police Service beheaded on the internet.

...nor LAV III commanders.

 

[Infanteer]

Lets carry on the silliness, shall we?

...nor LAV III commanders.

You initiated the silliness with your logical fallacy of comparing a Canadian city and Afghanistan.

As for no beheaded Canadians - we've been lucky not to lose a guy to the other side, but there are enough videos from Iraq and Afghanistan to give an indication of what would happen should one of us be taken by the Taliban.

My point still stands.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

You initiated the silliness with your logical fallacy of comparing a Canadian city and Afghanistan.

??LOS ANGELES??    [Gee, no wonder I dropped out of school] :-[

No, you made the completely unqualified and uncalled for comment,

I highly doubt if a LEO is getting trashed at a Christmas Party that he is going to be concerned about gang threats.

and I followed you right out of both our lanes......

 

[Infanteer]

??LOS ANGELES??    [Gee, no wonder I dropped out of school] :-[ 

The discussion had moved to generalities.

No, you made the completely unqualified and uncalled for comment, and I followed you right out of both our lanes......

Not really - I don't see how discussing drinking and carrying weapons is beyond our lanes.

As I said, my comments on Reply 32 in reference to Kevin's statement still stands.  Unless there are compelling statisics indicating an unusually high amount of violent crimes against off duty police officers, then I see no compelling argument that LEOs absolutely need to be armed 24/7.  As well, if an officer is impaired beyond his ability to legally drive, I can't see him being suddenly called to duty.

In any case, this seems relatively moot to me - I have good friends in 3 different law-enforcement organizations, and I'm unsure of the actual policies for off-duty carriage of weapons, but they've never carried when we've went out to get merry.

 

[FastEddy]

You initiated the silliness with your logical fallacy of comparing a Canadian city and Afghanistan.

As for no beheaded Canadians - we've been lucky not to lose a guy to the other side, but there are enough videos from Iraq and Afghanistan to give an indication of what would happen should one of us be taken by the Taliban.

My point still stands.

I don't know how the Sand Box got into the mix, but I think we should leave any mention or association to it other than the Praise and Efforts of our Troops there.

But "Infanteer", Before the Pot calls the Kettle Black, park outside any Officers Mess at closing hour !.

 

[KevinB]

Most US LEA require or allow 24/7 carry as they are always on duty as sworn officers.

In Canada due to the sheeple mentality, very few police services allow off duty carry unless the member is under credible threat (as determined by the service's chief constable [chief])

Me, I carry going to Mac's milk to get the wife something she is craving, 1 x 1911w/ X300, 2x8rd mags, xSF G2 light, CCW permit, phone (well Blackberry) - #1 rule is dial 911 first, be a good witness, shoot if required.

* I dont get to carry in Canada sadly

 

[GAP]

* I dont get to carry in Canada sadly

And such a target rich environment too...... ;D