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"Leak of thousands of posts from defunct neo-Nazi forum offers clues to identify

LittleBlackDevil

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Thought experiment: if this same person's online activities could be summarized by the edited summaries listed below, who would be willing to just live & let live, and trust that he's being truly de-radicalized?

I would suggest that our government would be willing to just live & let live, etc.

If you were more specifically asking who on this forum would be willing to just live & let live, I'm sure answers would vary. For myself, I would take it on a case-by-case basis and it would require a lot of scrutiny, but if the person is truly reformed they could actually be a unique "asset".

That said, I think that absent some very strong proof of reform and rejection of "extremist" beliefs the default would be that such people are not appropriate people to be wearing the uniform. Openly calling for the murder of people on a forum is a lot more than simply holding certain beliefs. I would say that I think the SAME standard ought to be applied equally to Jihadists, Antifa-types, and neo-Nazis alike. Reading this thread it seems to me that the main bone of contention is that a (former?) Neo-Nazi gets jumped on with both feet whereas the others get lighter treatment and more benefit of a doubt (that said I'm not aware of any serving members of the CAF being outed as Jihadists or Antifa terrorists).
 

brihard

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I know I'll get flamed for this, but, is there no path to redemption at all?
So once you get marked with the scarlet letter that's it?
‘Redemption’ in a moral sense? Sure, potentially.

Security clearance and reliability screening? Check back in a decade, IMHO.

The liability and risk to Canada goes well beyond the individual’s desire to make amends and feel better about themselves. Let them redeem themselves outside of our national security infrastructure.
 

TCM621

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‘Redemption’ in a moral sense? Sure, potentially.

Security clearance and reliability screening? Check back in a decade, IMHO.

The liability and risk to Canada goes well beyond the individual’s desire to make amends and feel better about themselves. Let them redeem themselves outside of our national security infrastructure.
This lack of a redemption arc in society troubles me deeply. Who here didn't do stupid shit as a kid? Who here thinks the same way now as they did when they we 15or 16? Hell, I can think of a particular Base Disciplinary Chief was caught selling cocaine while in uniform as a young sailor. I'm old enough to remember guys who joined the military rather than go to jail. The military used to be seen as the place to go if you needed to turn your life around. The sad thing is that the quality of soldier, sailor or airman hasn't improved while we have been pickier and pickier. I remember losing good candidate over good candidate when I was working in recruiting for a reserve regiment. They weren't even joining because they wanted a job they just wanted to be in the army but after 9 months to a year of bs they lost interest.

I don't know this guy's story. But it seems as if this was in the past and he isn't the same person anymore. It seems like maybe the CAF was what he needed instead he will probably fall right back into his old habits and instead of having a reformed white supremacist in the CAF, we will have a relapsed white supremacist who probably will hold stronger beliefs now than they did before. I all for throwing the book, the kitchen sink and a tire iron at anyone who actively advocates for, or takes part in, violence against a minority group based on their status as a minority group. I'm all for charges against people who act in a discriminatory manner in the course of their duties. I am all for remedial measures against anyone who acts in a manner that would make a reasonable person uncomfortable beyond the usual discomfort that comes from this crazy outfit. However, I do not like the idea of bands of people searching out individuals for tweets or forum posts they made years ago and leveraging that information to get them fired.

To take off my moral hat for a second, think about what this does to our security vulnerabilities. Imagine you were a dumb kid on 4chan back before you joined. For you old folks 4chan is a beautiful cesspool of anonymous people who have brought down criminals, turned racist words into running jokes and otherwise spread chaos. Now imagine a Russian hackers contacts you and says, "I have proof you posted these racist images on 4 Chan 10 years ago. Load this file on to a computer or I will send it to the press". The Russians have a lot of practice with this as they used homosexual behavior and early commmunist leanings for example, as leverage against NATO personnel for most of the Cold War. I know most people think they would resist it but in reality a significant number people would fold like a lawn chair if threatened with the firing and public shaming that came with it.

In short, by all means get rid of anyone engaging in racist or otherwise discriminatory behavior, after following the appropriate process. Absolutely deny enlistment to people who hold these views currently. But people are not who they were. They are who they are now. Judge them as such and don't let an online mob decide who should be fired. IMO, a better approach would be to get the young fella to have a press conference talking about how the CAF saved him from those types of viewpoints, even if he has to told forcefully that the CAF has indeed saved him from those ideas.
 

Navy_Pete

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I think running and moderating a neo-nazi chat forum is a bit more serious than posting stupid things as a kid. Also attempted arms dealing. Let's not trivialize what he did as 'boys will be boys'. This was way more than a few dumb memes; he was actively promoting white supremacy and tried to hook people up with assault rifles. I mean, holy shit.

He also didn't come clean about it himself; he was exposed after someone basically hacked the user records and doxed him. If he's seeking redemption now; great. But that involves genuine acts of contrition and a demonstrated change. He's welcome to do that somewhere else, but this is just a natural consequence of his actions. This guy has done SFA to demonstrate genuine remorse, but ball is totally in his court now if he wants to change, and there is nothing at all stopping him from learning from this and being a better person. But it's up to him to show that he's changed, not our responsibility to spoon feed him the opportunity.

We also have a duty to protect all our personnel; why should we force anyone to work with him? We either have zero tolerance for racism, or we don't. Keeping him in uniform was a pretty big indication that anything we previously said was just bullshit mouthservice, so glad this decision was reversed after further review.
 

daftandbarmy

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I think running and moderating a neo-nazi chat forum is a bit more serious than posting stupid things as a kid. Also attempted arms dealing. Let's not trivialize what he did as 'boys will be boys'. This was way more than a few dumb memes; he was actively promoting white supremacy and tried to hook people up with assault rifles. I mean, holy shit.

He also didn't come clean about it himself; he was exposed after someone basically hacked the user records and doxed him. If he's seeking redemption now; great. But that involves genuine acts of contrition and a demonstrated change. He's welcome to do that somewhere else, but this is just a natural consequence of his actions. This guy has done SFA to demonstrate genuine remorse, but ball is totally in his court now if he wants to change, and there is nothing at all stopping him from learning from this and being a better person. But it's up to him to show that he's changed, not our responsibility to spoon feed him the opportunity.

We also have a duty to protect all our personnel; why should we force anyone to work with him? We either have zero tolerance for racism, or we don't. Keeping him in uniform was a pretty big indication that anything we previously said was just bullshit mouthservice, so glad this decision was reversed after further review.
Off With His Head Vikings GIF by THE BEARD STRUGGLE
 

brihard

Army.ca Fixture
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This lack of a redemption arc in society troubles me deeply. Who here didn't do stupid shit as a kid? Who here thinks the same way now as they did when they we 15or 16? Hell, I can think of a particular Base Disciplinary Chief was caught selling cocaine while in uniform as a young sailor. I'm old enough to remember guys who joined the military rather than go to jail. The military used to be seen as the place to go if you needed to turn your life around. The sad thing is that the quality of soldier, sailor or airman hasn't improved while we have been pickier and pickier. I remember losing good candidate over good candidate when I was working in recruiting for a reserve regiment. They weren't even joining because they wanted a job they just wanted to be in the army but after 9 months to a year of bs they lost interest.

I don't know this guy's story. But it seems as if this was in the past and he isn't the same person anymore. It seems like maybe the CAF was what he needed instead he will probably fall right back into his old habits and instead of having a reformed white supremacist in the CAF, we will have a relapsed white supremacist who probably will hold stronger beliefs now than they did before. I all for throwing the book, the kitchen sink and a tire iron at anyone who actively advocates for, or takes part in, violence against a minority group based on their status as a minority group. I'm all for charges against people who act in a discriminatory manner in the course of their duties. I am all for remedial measures against anyone who acts in a manner that would make a reasonable person uncomfortable beyond the usual discomfort that comes from this crazy outfit. However, I do not like the idea of bands of people searching out individuals for tweets or forum posts they made years ago and leveraging that information to get them fired.

To take off my moral hat for a second, think about what this does to our security vulnerabilities. Imagine you were a dumb kid on 4chan back before you joined. For you old folks 4chan is a beautiful cesspool of anonymous people who have brought down criminals, turned racist words into running jokes and otherwise spread chaos. Now imagine a Russian hackers contacts you and says, "I have proof you posted these racist images on 4 Chan 10 years ago. Load this file on to a computer or I will send it to the press". The Russians have a lot of practice with this as they used homosexual behavior and early commmunist leanings for example, as leverage against NATO personnel for most of the Cold War. I know most people think they would resist it but in reality a significant number people would fold like a lawn chair if threatened with the firing and public shaming that came with it.

In short, by all means get rid of anyone engaging in racist or otherwise discriminatory behavior, after following the appropriate process. Absolutely deny enlistment to people who hold these views currently. But people are not who they were. They are who they are now. Judge them as such and don't let an online mob decide who should be fired. IMO, a better approach would be to get the young fella to have a press conference talking about how the CAF saved him from those types of viewpoints, even if he has to told forcefully that the CAF has indeed saved him from those ideas.
Yeah, no. He’s not some dude in his 30s who posted a bit of dumb shit on 4chan a decade ago. He was a serving CAF member who less than four years ago literally was part of running a nazi website that advocated gassing Jews, and then he got caught.

So no; the known risk and compromise here more than necessitates booting his ass to the curb. There’s absolutely no reason he should be trusted in defense of our nation and its values. He literally encouraged his ilk to join CAF to gain skills they could use for political violence.

By all means let him seek repentance. Let him volunteer with deradicalization initiatives. Let him find some gainful, respectable employment somewhere. But there is too great a risk to trust him in any capacity with our nation’s defense or with its sensitive information. We are not so desperately hard pressed that we need to employ him any longer. He knowingly made his choices and they were bloody awful ones. His judgment and ethics are, in my mind, irrevocably compromised inasmuch is it relates to our ability to trust him in this way. That’s the product of his decisions, and I have zero sympathy for him.
 
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