Leave Administration - Op LASER

[stellarpanther]

So Jim should be reimbursed based on the CANFORGEN and request to accumulate the leave because the intent was shown to travel based on address on leave pass. That's right out of the CANFORGEN. If the CO denies the request, submit a notice of intent to grieve.

I'll need to look at it again because I didn't see that.  I know I won't get reimbursed because I was given a credit valid for 2 years from the date of original travel which I'm fine with. The CANFORGEN does mention that mbr's first make sure they are not entitled to a credit or other option. I believe most airlines are giving credits.

 

[BeyondTheNow]

I lost 17 days.

That sucks, it does. But as others have said, try just a tad bit of gratitude here. You have a good gig, good pay, benefits (and some great fringe ones), you’re healthy, you’re safe, you’re not waking up every morning to an empty fridge or wondering where your next meal is going to come from. You haven’t been laid off, you don’t have a landlord pressing you for rent, your bills are probably all paid, you probably have at least one loved one who loves you in return. The average joe is really struggling right now. Put yourself in someone else’s shoes.

You lost some vacation. Grand scheme? Not a big deal.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

At least 8  (going to be more) of my coworkers would be more then happy to have taken the "hit" you did rather then be sick right now.  I'm sorry you lost some days off, but I'm even sorrier you are finding it that big of a deal.,

 

[MJP]

Does that mean you worked through Christmas or summer block leave last year?

I don't know where SP works but block leave isn't some all encompassing thing. For example, folks in Ottawa working the institutional side don't generally get the type of Xmas or other blocks that you would see in a tactical Bde.  They are generally left relatively free to use their leave as they see fit as long as it works for their org.
Largely because they don't have commitments like IRU,  collective trg or PCF cycles to work around when it comes to leave.

 

[stellarpanther]

Does that mean you worked through Christmas or summer block leave last year?

I used 4 days at Christmas and 4 random days. I didn't take summer leave because I wanted to make sure I had them for end March as per my leave plan.  I have never belonged to a unit that has block leave.  Even using annual leave at Christmas isn't mandatory in a lot of units a various bases.

 

[stellarpanther]

At least 8  (going to be more) of my coworkers would be more then happy to have taken the "hit" you did rather then be sick right now.  I'm sorry you lost some days off, but I'm even sorrier you are finding it that big of a deal.,

I know I'm the one on here complaining and it does come across that I'm pissed and whining about it because I am a bit, but I'm calm compared to some of the emails coming in to both me and other HRA's.  I think some people here would be shocked to see some of it, I really wish I could post some of them. It seems like the higher the rank, the more colourful the wording in these emails.  I know a couple have been forwarded up the CoC because of the inappropriate language even though they are not blaming the us (HRA's) for the issue. Some mbr's are furious and are taking it as a slap in the face. 

 

[ballz]

I'll need to look at it again because I didn't see that.  I know I won't get reimbursed because I was given a credit valid for 2 years from the date of original travel which I'm fine with. The CANFORGEN does mention that mbr's first make sure they are not entitled to a credit or other option. I believe most airlines are giving credits.

FYI, you will be able to claim the expense 2 years from now if you haven't used it. Might seem like a long ways away but I'd still remember $500-1000 bucks 2 years from now.

I'm wondering if some of the people who are justifying it are actually in the Reg F and the reason I am saying that is because I have yet to see a mbr not complain about leave when they feel they were wronged.

You are not helping your cause at all. You need to stop doing this to yourself.

It is unfair if two people are told they are to stay home and 1 stays home and doesn't need to use annual leave but another person does just because they decided to take their leave at a later date in the FY which is allowed.

And what are your thoughts on "fairness" when critical staff need to be at work every day, as per normal circumstances, while others have been home for 5 weeks either using minimal annual or none at all.

We have a job. We have steady income. Most of us employed by the CAF have had minimal negative impacts to our life, while people's lives are being ruined (or literally ended) right now as a result of this whole thing. I would advise anybody feeling hard done by because they "lost" 25 days of annual leave (while not being required to work) that they just be grateful.

I lost $1300 this month when my tenants didn't pay their rent.... they didn't pay their rent because both of them got laid off. It's not fair, I'm legally entitled to that income, I still have a mortgage to pay... but I'm not feeling very hard done by about it all, I'm feeling pretty grateful.

Out of curiosity, are you actually personally and greatly affected by this scenario—as in you ended up losing several days worth of annual (not just a couple), or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing an issue that the rest of us have managed to process, accept and deal with because it’s the way it is?

In fairness to stellarpanther, I don't know why that is relevant. I wasn't personally affected by the cost-comparison shitshow that DCBA caused out of clear incompetence, and was questioned as to why I was so concerned about the fact that everybody in the CAF was getting screwed over because I wasn't personally being screwed over. I'm not sure why my motives were questioned, but it's not fun to be the person that's going against the grain and in many cases we could use a few more people having the courage to go against the grain..... Either stellarpanther's points are compelling or they are not, and whether he lost 0, 1, or 17 days doesn't change that.

I know I'm the one on here complaining and it does come across that I'm pissed and whining about it because I am a bit, but I'm calm compared to some of the emails coming in to both me and other HRA's.  I think some people here would be shocked to see some of it, I really wish I could post some of them. It seems like the higher the rank, the more colourful the wording in these emails.  I know a couple have been forwarded up the CoC because of the inappropriate language even though they are not blaming the us (HRA's) for the issue. Some mbr's are furious and are taking it as a slap in the face. 

If you think it's unfair, grieve it. And encourage them to do the same. Honestly, when it comes to the grievance system it's slow but we have a system in place that works, and in my experience some pretty smart and objective people in the Military External Grievance Review Committee that advise the CDS on these issues. And it is one of few effective systems we have in place that works relatively well to change things, in many cases the only avenue people have to make a real change.

As for the unprofessional people taking it out on HRAs, I feel for you. Forward it all up your CoC, hopefully someone shows some leadership.

 

[stellarpanther]

That sucks, it does. But as others have said, try just a tad bit of gratitude here. You have a good gig, good pay, benefits (and some great fringe ones), you’re healthy, you’re safe, you’re not waking up every morning to an empty fridge or wondering where your next meal is going to come from. You haven’t been laid off, you don’t have a landlord pressing you for rent, your bills are probably all paid, you probably have at least one loved one who loves you in return. The average joe is really struggling right now. Put yourself in someone else’s shoes.

You lost some vacation. Grand scheme? Not a big deal.

I agree with you and I have on several occasions reminded myself of all of these things.  Myself and others in the CAF are lucky compared to some others out there and I do try to keep that in perspective, regardless of how I may sound.  Some of it isn't right though, as an example, an HRA I work with told me about a pissed off mbr who cancelled her leave that was scheduled earlier in the year to help out her unit after someone went off sick and her CoC asked if she would mind delaying it until the end of March.  This mbr is apparently fuming because she feels she did something to help out the Org but got burned for being nice. She lost 11 days.

 

[BeyondTheNow]

ballz:

In fairness to stellarpanther, I don't know why that is relevant. I wasn't personally affected by the cost-comparison shitshow that DCBA caused out of clear incompetence, and was questioned as to why I was so concerned about the fact that everybody in the CAF was getting screwed over because I wasn't personally being screwed over. I'm not sure why my motives were questioned, but it's not fun to be the person that's going against the grain and in many cases we could use a few more people having the courage to go against the grain..... Either stellarpanther's points are compelling or they are not, and whether he lost 0, 1, or 17 days doesn't change that.

It was strictly related to multiple instances of his past posting behaviour, where despite many trying to advise and shed light on his inquiries, he continued on with the same points as though no users had attempted to calm/assist with his concerns.

A user specifically asked earlier how much leave he lost and he didn’t answer the question then. Instead, he went on further to reiterate his same issue, which had been addressed more than once, without bringing forward any new info which could’ve aided in wrapping up the situation several posts ago.

Anyone is permitted to post as often as they like, comment on any topic they wish and ask whatever questions they want clarity on. But eventually, when there’s no acknowledgement to the fact that the question has been asked and answered in any number of ways, and a poster keeps pursuing the matter vehemently, it gets tiresome and users will lose their patience and any sense of sympathy.

Stellarpanther:

I agree with you and I have on several occasions reminded myself of all of these things.  Myself and others in the CAF are lucky compared to some others out there and I do try to keep that in perspective, regardless of how I may sound.  Some of it isn't right though, as an example, an HRA I work with told me about a pissed off mbr who cancelled her leave that was scheduled earlier in the year to help out her unit after someone went off sick and her CoC asked if she would mind delaying it until the end of March.  This mbr is apparently fuming because she feels she did something to help out the Org but got burned for being nice. She lost 11 days.

As was touched on earlier, there are/will be certain processes available where mbrs may be able to recoup, or otherwise address specific matters related to this. Practically everything in CAF is case by case. Will there be some oversights and poor decisions by CoCs? Quite possibly. But there’s nothing that can be done here. (Meaning on the site.)

I’m not discounting anyone’s negative experiences. But as with others, I’m in agreement that “fair” or “unfair” isn’t appropriate given the current state of everything. I could fill you in on an absolutely mind-boggling situation of my own that has lasted years and the pandemic has thrown yet another wrench into an entirely frustrating situation. Yes, thoughts of things seeming unfair has crossed my mind from time to time in the past when I’ve felt sorry for myself. But ultimately no one is purposely trying to fuck my life over—everything has simply unfolded as it has, I believe everyone has tried the best they can, and that’s it—no more, no less—It’s just what it is. I can choose to be at peace with that and focus on what has gone right, and keep doing what I can do in order to keep things moving positively, or I can wallow, complain, keep questioning and feel hard-done-by. Personally, I’ve learned that a healthy state of mind depends on going with the former.  :dunno:

 

[garb811]

Fair or unfair isn't relative to the "current state of things", it's the reality of life in the CAF.

If the biggest unfairness in your CAF career is being told to stay home during your annual leave, I hate to say that my heart isn't breaking for you.

Some of us are posted every 3-4 years, some of us stay in one location for 20.
Some of us make $100,000 selling a house, some of us lose $80,000 in the same location 5 years later.
Some of us are deployed multiple times to some pretty shitty places, some of us never have to worry about it.
Some of us have kids who are in their third provincial school system and their 5th set of friends, some of us have kids who have graduated university in the same place they were born.
Some of us miss birthdays, anniversaries, weddings, funerals because we are in units that go away a lot, some of us work 8-4 and haven't slept in anything but our own bed since the last time we were on a career course.
Some of us are posted to organizations where we can take leave whenever we want, some of us are posted to organizations where there are mandated block leave periods and deviations from those block leave periods must be justified for approval...

My observation has been that it is only when people are on the "bad" side of this unfairness that any of this becomes an issue; for those who benefit from it, they are more than happy with the way things are going for them and don't see a need to upend the status quo.

As I stated earlier, if people think the leave "unfairness" isn't going to continue, they are fooling themselves. There is absolutely no way the CAF as a whole can just let people not take leave until the current travel restrictions (both CAF imposed and otherwise) are lifted and if people don't want to take leave voluntarily "at home", they just might find themselves given a leave pass signed by their CO. I think it's going to be a while before we hit "leave normal" again so get used to it.

 

[stellarpanther]

As I stated earlier, if people think the leave "unfairness" isn't going to continue, they are fooling themselves. There is absolutely no way the CAF as a whole can just let people not take leave until the current travel restrictions (both CAF imposed and otherwise) are lifted and if people don't want to take leave voluntarily "at home", they just might find themselves given a leave pass signed by their CO. I think it's going to be a while before we hit "leave normal" again so get used to it.

I not going to bother complaining on here anymore because while I acknowledge there is some good advice offered on this site, I do think the opinions are based on things such as type of trade etc, what I mean by that, and we've actually had conversations about this at work, is that someone with a combat trade background or someone who spent a lot of time working at a Svc Bn where they are told what to do a lot have a different way of thinking when compared with someone who has spent a lot of there career in Ottawa or Borden or North Bay or even Winnipeg.  Places like that for some trades are like being a civi in uniform, with some parades thrown in now and then.  More if you're in Ottawa.  I knew a person about 3 years ago who was going to be posted from Ottawa to Edmonton, she had 2 years left until she was planning on releasing with 20 years.  She fought it saying it was unfair because the adjustment would be unfair to her after spending so much time in an office setting and the Svc Bn would be too much.  Higher up's agreed and posted her to Halifax instead.  Since she was a MCpl she wouldn't be posted to a ship so she would continue working in the office.
I may not be wording this clearly but for some mbr's, depending on where they work, if you post them to certain bases or units, you would have the same result if you took a person from Civ HR.  It probably wouldn't be not be a good fit.  Again I'm not complaining but just stating a fact.  The example I used isn't mine by the way, it was used by a previous MWO from one the units I was in.  He also told the us that when we go up in rank to remember that just because it's the CAF and we are allowed to do something, it doesn't always mean it's the right thing to do.
Either way, I've given my opinions on the leave policy and others have given their opinions, I'm going to drop it on here but I do appreciate the feedback I received.

 

[garb811]

I not going to bother complaining on here anymore because while I acknowledge there is some good advice offered on this site, I do think the opinions are based on things such as type of trade etc, what I mean by that, and we've actually had conversations about this at work, is that someone with a combat trade background or someone who spent a lot of time working at a Svc Bn where they are told what to do a lot have a different way of thinking when compared with someone who has spent a lot of there career in Ottawa or Borden or North Bay or even Winnipeg.  Places like that for some trades are like being a civi in uniform, with some parades thrown in now and then.  More if you're in Ottawa.  I knew a person about 3 years ago who was going to be posted from Ottawa to Edmonton, she had 2 years left until she was planning on releasing with 20 years.  She fought it saying it was unfair because the adjustment would be unfair to her after spending so much time in an office setting and the Svc Bn would be too much.  Higher up's agreed and posted her to Halifax instead.  Since she was a MCpl she wouldn't be posted to a ship so she would continue working in the office.
I may not be wording this clearly but for some mbr's, depending on where they work, if you post them to certain bases or units, you would have the same result if you took a person from Civ HR.  It probably wouldn't be not be a good fit.  Again I'm not complaining but just stating a fact.  The example I used isn't mine by the way, it was used by a previous MWO from one the units I was in.  He also told the us that when we go up in rank to remember that just because it's the CAF and we are allowed to do something, it doesn't always mean it's the right thing to do.
Either way, I've given my opinions on the leave policy and others have given their opinions, I'm going to drop it on here but I do appreciate the feedback I received.

I really don't know what to say to this. You just scored an own goal, and don't even realize it.

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . .  Places like that for some trades are like being a civi in uniform, with some parades thrown in now and then.  More if you're in Ottawa. . . .

I sorry, but I have to take exception with how you present this.  The location (or the unit) has nothing to do do with individuals thinking of themselves as "civi in uniform".  That's entirely a mindset that a individual chooses and accepts for themself, probably by imitating others (the wrong others).  Using your example of Ottawa, I fully accept that the work environment has a much less formal military atmosphere than found in a field force unit (I was posted to Ottawa a couple of times back when the earth was cooling), but the level of formality does not (or should not) affect whether one considers themself a soldier, sailor or whatever the other guys are calling themselves these days.  "Soldiering" is not about drill or parades or "yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir".  It is about contributing to the accomplishment of the mission, whether one's contribution is in direct action against a foe (either an enemy combatant or a virus) or by ensuring that all the tiny cogs supporting the mission are turning smoothly.

I've known a few individuals who spent a majority of their careers in Ottawa, not always of their own choosing.  Yes, there were a rare few who took that path of least resistance and slid into the "civvy in uniform" model, but most tried their best to be "from Ottawa and here to help".

 

[Journeyman]

…. whether one considers themself a soldier, sailor or whatever the other guys are calling themselves these days.

    :rofl:

 

[dapaterson]

whether one considers themself a soldier, sailor or whatever the other guys are calling themselves these days.

Ahem.  Loesser, Swerling and Burrows would argue that characterization. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJq7J2uzSlc

 

[cld617]

This thread reminds me of Matt Damon's character communicating with robots in Elysium.

Sorry, humanoid....but, life's, not, fair.

 

[CountDC]

Part of the problem I see is that you are mixing leave the member requested with a work schedule imposed on another member.  Two different things - the old apple and oranges.  In fairness this has happened for as long as I can remember.  John puts in a leave pass for Friday, comes back to work to find out for what ever reason the CO stood down the unit sending everyone home, John cries unfair and wants his leave back (hate when it happens to me too but that is life).  You are also not taking into account that the member on leave can only have it cancelled and ordered in to work by the CO. The member on a work schedule could be called at any time and told to report in.  The fact that travel was restricted did not prevent anyone from remaining on leave thus no reason for it to be given back after the fact.  In fact we have had cases where the member had to be ordered to take leave because they refused to request it, giving the excuse that they had no where to go so were planning to just accumulate or cash out.

At the end it all works the same - the member got the leave they requested so there was no loss of leave.  Loss of leave would be if they were ordered back to work and the leave not cancelled.

 

[stellarpanther]

Part of the problem I see is that you are mixing leave the member requested with a work schedule imposed on another member.  Two different things - the old apple and oranges.  In fairness this has happened for as long as I can remember.  John puts in a leave pass for Friday, comes back to work to find out for what ever reason the CO stood down the unit sending everyone home, John cries unfair and wants his leave back (hate when it happens to me too but that is life).  You are also not taking into account that the member on leave can only have it cancelled and ordered in to work by the CO. The member on a work schedule could be called at any time and told to report in.  The fact that travel was restricted did not prevent anyone from remaining on leave thus no reason for it to be given back after the fact.  In fact we have had cases where the member had to be ordered to take leave because they refused to request it, giving the excuse that they had no where to go so were planning to just accumulate or cash out.

At the end it all works the same - the member got the leave they requested so there was no loss of leave.  Loss of leave would be if they were ordered back to work and the leave not cancelled.

I'm not going to get into it because as much as I'm ticked about the leave situation and don't think it was fair and believe that those effected or at least had an address other than their primary residence on their leave pass should be able to accumulate or cash it out, I'm not stewing over it like I was.  Obviously he/she doesn't make the decision, but I was very recently made aware of an email circulating that was initiated by a very Sr. HRA who believes the decision may have been rushed and it may be visited again.  One example I've heard recently was 2 mbr's both on IR saved all their leave to visit each other.  Basically one used 5 weeks plus the specials, shorts given at Christmas to visit the other.  The other was going to use all of their 5 weeks to visit the other at the end of March but because of the distance rule, couldn't go and just spent it alone in shacks.  I've already given my opinion on leave a few times and I believe I also said I wouldn't continue complaining on this site about it so I'll keep my word on that and not continue on that topic.

 

[MJP]

I'm not going to get into it because as much as I'm ticked about the leave situation and don't think it was fair and believe that those effected or at least had an address other than their primary residence on their leave pass should be able to accumulate or cash it out, I'm not stewing over it like I was.  Obviously he/she doesn't make the decision, but I was very recently made aware of an email circulating that was initiated by a very Sr. HRA who believes the decision may have been rushed and it may be visited again.  One example I've heard recently was 2 mbr's both on IR saved all their leave to visit each other.  Basically one used 5 weeks plus the specials, shorts given at Christmas to visit the other.  The other was going to use all of their 5 weeks to visit the other at the end of March but because of the distance rule, couldn't go and just spent it alone in shacks.  I've already given my opinion on leave a few times and I believe I also said I wouldn't continue complaining on this site about it so I'll keep my word on that and not continue on that topic.

As the CDS said there will always be special cases that need to be looked at and adjudicated.  You can never have one policy that fits or pleases everyone especially in an org like the CAF.

That said there are provisions in the OP LASER orders to allow people on IR to travel back to their families.  Seen a number of folks travel both commercially and via POMV since this all started. The authorities have been delegated down (and have from the start essentially) to a low enough level that there is no excuse to have someone sit in the shacks on IR when they could be at home.  It is just a bit of staff work by the units and their HHQs.