Leave - Recall and Other Issues [MERGED]

[Fishbone Jones]

When I was in Pet, many, many years ago, we had a sort of 'permanent pass'. It was a wallet card, showing the Regimental boundary for weekends. It, IIRC, was encompassed in a circle with Ottawa and North Bay at its poles and west and east being equal distance to north and south. That wallet card was your leave pass for that area, signed by the CO. Before you left the Unit lines on Friday, you signed the weekend book with the RPs, showing contact info for the weekend. Easy peezy.

No spending hours of admin weekly for normal leave passes.

 

[George Wallace]

When I was in Pet, many, many years ago, we had a sort of 'permanent pass'. It was a wallet card, showing the Regimental boundary for weekends. It, IIRC, was encompassed in a circle with Ottawa and North Bay at its poles and west and east being equal distance to north and south. That wallet card was your leave pass for that area, signed by the CO. Before you left the Unit lines on Friday, you signed the weekend book with the RPs, showing contact info for the weekend. Easy peezy.

No spending hours of admin weekly for normal leave passes.

Ah!  See that was Old Army.  That was the days when there were Duty Pers in the Shacks, Messes (Wet and Dry), HQ, and periodically at Base HQ and Front Gates.  A time when a Signout Book was kept in the Duty Room in the Shack or HQ.  The New Army can't find enough pers to do that many duties and log books are something that are archived in a museum.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

With the CF Leave Policy Manual now, weekend leave passes are not required.  The expectation when you leave after duty on Friday is that you will be back at your place of duty Monday morning at XXXX time.  Normal working hours are supposed to be published in unit/Sqn orders (they are at my Sqn).

If the CAF needs me to be on standby/recall whatever you want to call it, they let me know ahead of time and I am not on 'weekend leave' and subj to the orders my Sqn has for recall times (limits to where I can go, etc).

Its actually quite easy and works well.  I don't need to sign a book on Friday because the unit has my cell phone and address and my skipper can msg me on FB, text etc.  Also, as I am not on duty when I leave Friday until XXXX time Monday morning (if I am not on standby), I am not expecting anyone to try to get ahold of me.  If the SHTF on the weekend, that's what the Ready crew is on standby to handle.

The days of controlling people's lives 24/7 'just in case WWIII starts' are in the past...I do enough weekends on standby (like this weekend, and last weekend...).  Good luck getting a hold of me on the rare weekend I have off these days.

 

[tristismilitis]

I recognize this post is a few months old but wanted to add one thing and ask a question. WRT being recalled from 'weekend leave'; I was able to request reimbursement for booked events that I had to miss due to a last minute tasking (I did not have a weekend leave pass), so the possibility is always there depending in part on CoC and Unit SOPs in terms of weekend leave passes. I have learned my lesson though and will ensure I have leave passes or other approved documentation to CMA in future when I have expensive events booked on "off-duty hours". Can't be too careful when it concerns money!

Which brings me to my question:

Hoping someone could assist with the actual reference for recovering leave from a mbr's pay. I've read through the leave manual, DAODs, QR&Os and even took a stab at paging through the HRMS reference portal, but could not find anything more specific than "any Ann leave over-expenditure...will be the object of a leave forfeiture imposed on the mbr to recuperate the excess". OR at the losing unit did a leave audit prior to forwarding to the gaining unit and despite this being the third posting, discovered an error from over a decade ago and mentioned that I will most like be required to repay five Annual days at my current rate of pay. Obviously unimpressed and while I try to review the calculations/information I would like to know the specific references used in a recovery of this nature so I can prepare a memo or grievance. 

Thanks for any assistance!

tm.

 

[Pusser]

They don't normally take actual money from you.  The usual method is to adjust your current leave entitlement.  If you have accrued or accumulated leave, this is easily covered.  If you only have annual leave left, they simply reduce what you have left.  The only time they actually take money is if you have no leave of any sort left on your account (which normally only happens on release).

 

[hattrick72]

I had a member who was having a baby and was not planning on taking any parental leave as his wife had full benefits at her work. He put in for 2 short and 5 annual he had saved for this occasion because he didn't want his wife alone after a C section.
Knowing how busy you can get with a new baby I decided to request 5 additional days of compassionate as the member would most likely not come back refreshed and the C section surgery really limits the actions one can perform for weeks.
Unfortunately it was denied as it wasn't for a family emergency.
Am I being too soft or is this a good situation to authorise compassionate leave to benefit the family? 
Would remedial measures influence this decision?  (Member was not on remedial measures)

 

[PuckChaser]

Compassionate leave isn't an entitlement. Member was lucky they even got short leave. I was lucky enough to take 2 weeks compassionate for my kids as the CO didn't want to lose me for an entire year. Next CO that took over authorized 4 days of compassionate starting as soon as your spouse went into labour, a polar shift but within her rights as the CO.

 

[Bzzliteyr]

Funny that we'd talk about parental leave. Is there a standard on what you *should* get when wifey gives birth?

I *may* have a baby on the way next year.

 

[PuckChaser]

The only thing you're entitled to is your own annual and PATA. Compassionate and short are CO's discretion.

 

[ballz]

Funny that we'd talk about parental leave. Is there a standard on what you *should* get when wifey gives birth?

I *may* have a baby on the way next year.

Apparently not judging by the posts above. Our unit gives 2 weeks if you aren't taking parental leave, I don't know how long that tradition has existed but its been that way through at least 3x COs now and I don't expect it to change. I think its one of the better standing policies we have at our unit.

Compassionate leave isn't an entitlement. Member was lucky they even got short leave.

It may not be an entitlement, but I wouldn't say they were "lucky" to be given 2x short days. The CO does have some responsibility to give at least a shred of a care about his/her subordinates and their families.

 

[PuckChaser]

I'd agree, but I've also worked for some pretty piss poor CO's who wouldn't give any leave out besides Christmas short, and some OCs who wouldn't stand up for those troops.

 

[sidemount]

Been there.
First kid I got 5 compassionate.
2nd, nothing...just annual. 2 different units...

Sent from my Samsung S6 using Tapatalk

 

[captloadie]

Maybe I fall into the group of hard asses, but I tend to evaluate the granting of short and/or compassionate on an individual basis. Blanket policies to me are unfair. I don't think having a baby is a compassionate situation. It also doesn't hit you out of the blue (in most cases you have several months to plan for it). That being said, there are individual reasons that I would fully support compassionate leave. Complications that leave the baby or the mother in hospital, a C-section that keeps the mother off her feet, or unable to deal with the baby on her own. Maybe even first time parents who don't have a local support network to help get them into a routine.

But if the member wants time off to bond with the newborn, or visit family, etc etc. I think that is what annual and/or PATA leave is for.

 

[Pusser]

I'm inclined to agree with captloadie on this one.

The QR&O says:

16.17 - COMPASSIONATE LEAVE

(2) Compassionate leave may be granted only for urgent and exceptional personal reasons and the commanding officer shall:

a.in normal cases verify to his satisfaction the grounds upon which the leave is requested before granting it; and

b.in cases of apparent urgency grant the leave and instruct the applicant to furnish definite verification of the grounds on the applicant's return from leave.


The Leave Policy Manual says:

7.1.02 Policy

Compassionate leave is separate from annual and accumulated leave and the member's CO or OCC, as applicable, determines the conditions under which it may be granted.

Examples of urgent and exceptional personal reasons include but are not limited to:

•situations of death or critical illness of a family member. Critical illness would be an illness or injury that is of such severity the patient's life is in immediate danger.

•traumatic family situations relating to the member or their family that are due to severe injury, disease or trauma that has detrimental and significant effect on the member's ability to perform assigned duties.


Whereas the regulations provide sufficient flexibility to a CO to decide that just about anything can qualify for Compassionate Leave, the examples provided, define the intent of the policy.  It is hard to argue that a normal childbirth situation would be reasonable grounds for Compassionate Leave.  My mother the obstetrical nurse has always been adamant that normal pregnancy and childbirth are neither "medical conditions" nor emergencies.

Furthermore, the idea of granting Compassionate Leave on the understanding that the member won't take Parental Leave is dangerous.  Notwithstanding any horse-trading of benefits, there is absolutely nothing preventing a member from turning around a week later and asking for Parental Leave.  What would happen in a case (especially one involving a very junior member) where he really needed Parental Leave, but felt he could no longer get it because he's already taken some Compassionate.  Trading entitlements (which has no basis in regulation anyway) is always dangerous.

There is no minimum amount of Parental Leave that a member can take, so if someone wants more leave than he (or she for that matter) can get using Annual, Short, Weekend or Stat, I recommend going through the process for Parental Leave.  Yes, there is a bunch of paperwork involved, but it's a better alternative to delving into "gray policy."

 

[ballz]

Furthermore, the idea of granting Compassionate Leave on the understanding that the member won't take Parental Leave is dangerous.

That's not what our unit does. I never said anything about granting them compassionate leave.

Notwithstanding any horse-trading of benefits, there is absolutely nothing preventing a member from turning around a week later and asking for Parental Leave.  What would happen in a case (especially one involving a very junior member) where he really needed Parental Leave, but felt he could no longer get it because he's already taken some Compassionate.  Trading entitlements (which has no basis in regulation anyway) is always dangerous.

Our way of dealing with all of this covers this just fine. In the few instances where something has changed and someone needed to take the Parental, they paid back the leave they took. No hard feelings.

There is no minimum amount of Parental Leave that a member can take, so if someone wants more leave than he (or she for that matter) can get using Annual, Short, Weekend or Stat, I recommend going through the process for Parental Leave.

I'll happy disagree, I like the way we do it. It works for the member, it works for the unit, and its one of the better uses of Command discretion that I've seen. Of all the things that don't follow policy, this is probably the one that concerns me the least.

 

[CountDC]

you mean the kind that is against regulations and is a form of fraud that could result in charges laid if it was found out by the wrong people so publishing it on a public site probably is not the best idea? 10 Days - really? and people complain about the navy sliders or make and mend days.

Curious - how would you justify the mbr needing to accumulate leave at the end year if they weren't able to use them all?  Imagine that would look good - mbr was unable to use his legitimate earned annual leave as we gave him 10 days off without approved leave.

 

[ballz]

probably is not the best idea?

I couldn't care less... I'm on my way out because

Of all the things that don't follow policy, this is probably the one that concerns me the least.

But sure, I'll re-word that part of the post so we can all feel comfortable discussing the merits of it.

Curious - how would you justify the mbr needing to accumulate leave at the end year if they weren't able to use them all?  Imagine that would look good - mbr was unable to use his legitimate earned annual leave as we gave him 10 days off without approved leave.

I'm not grown up enough for that (managing leave, etc) so answering that mail is not my issue (one more reason I'm on my way out). That said, using up all annual leave hasn't been an issue.


I don't see 10x days as being an issue. Many people want time at home with their newborn and their wife. If they go through the hassle of taking parental, they will take a lot more than two weeks, probably a whole year. The parental benefits in the CAF are lucrative. I don't think the taxpayer is being hard done by to have someone take 10 paid days off instead of a year of parental. It works for the unit, it works for the member, and it works for the taxpayer in my mind. I wish it *were* policy. Like I said, of all the things I've seen that don't follow policy, this one concerns me the least.

 

[Pusser]

That's not what our unit does. I never said anything about granting them compassionate leave.

Our way of dealing with all of this covers this just fine. In the few instances where something has changed and someone needed to take the Parental, they paid back the leave they took. No hard feelings.

I'll happy disagree, I like the way we do it. It works for the member, it works for the unit, and its one of the better uses of Command discretion that I've seen. Of all the things that don't follow policy, this is probably the one that concerns me the least.

If it's not Compassionate Leave, then what is it?  It's not Short Leave, because that's limited to two days per calendar month.  It's apparently not Annual and obviously can't be Weekend.  It's not Stat because no holiday lasts that long.  And it most certainly isn't Special because no CO has the authority to grant any Special Leave not listed in the Leave Manual (and there isn't a category of Special Leave for having a baby).  If what you've described is correct, then your unit is treading on very dangerous ground, which could well turn around and bite somebody (both member and CO) later, when it gets audited - and all leave is audited eventually - and yes, they will recover unauthorized leave from your pay on release (at whatever rate of pay you're receiving when you release). 

 

[Lumber]

If it's not Compassionate Leave, then what is it?  It's not Short Leave, because that's limited to two days per calendar month.  It's apparently not Annual and obviously can't be Weekend.  It's not Stat because no holiday lasts that long.  And it most certainly isn't Special because no CO has the authority to grant any Special Leave not listed in the Leave Manual (and there isn't a category of Special Leave for having a baby).  If what you've described is correct, then your unit is treading on very dangerous ground, which could well turn around and bite somebody (both member and CO) later, when it gets audited - and all leave is audited eventually - and yes, they will recover unauthorized leave from your pay on release (at whatever rate of pay you're receiving when you release).

It must be "Compensatory Time Off". A made up form of leave that exists only in fairy tales and the Primary Reserve  ;D.

 

[Blackadder1916]

. . . fairy tales and the Primary Reserve  ;D.

Doesn't including both terms in the same sentence make one of them redundant?