Lebanon (Superthread)

[exsemjingo]

I only wish this was possible.  Unfortunately, no one wanted to work with the Americans at the G8.  We of course stood by them, with Harper taking an firmer stance than they did on Israel's right to defend itself, but that is not enough support for what you advocate.
Taking the war directly to Iran and Syria may not be the easiest course of action, but it definitely should have been on the table.  Russia, along with other members of the G8, remained critical of Israel only to vex the Americans.  They did not even look at the situation in the middle east; they anticipated the American reaction and took a critical stance accordingly.
Israel will have to settle for attacking Hezbollah in Lebanon, since there is too much division in NATO for American support.  It is enough to make Presidents curse and Jr.Members change their signatures, since the real enemies are Syria and Iran.

 

[joaquim]

Tactical high energy lasers (THEL, or M-THEL for the mobile version) have been developed by US companies and Israel over the past years with great expectations and some success. Below is an article in Defense Update magazine showing photos of a successful destruction of a rocket in 2000.

Where are these lasers today? The Wikipedia article about THEL says Israel discontinued their deployment prior to the current war. Why?

Joaquim, a concerned civilian.

http://www.defense-update.com/directory/THEL.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tactical_high_energy_laser

 

[GAP]

Where are these lasers today? The Wikipedia article about THEL says Israel discontinued their deployment prior to the current war. Why?
http://www.defense-update.com/directory/THEL.htm

If you had read the full article you would have found

Northrop Grumman proposed to use "relocatable" THEL systems to counter mortar and rocket threats on US military facilities in Iraq. Since funding for the MTHEL program was cut in 2004, such system may not be available for deployment in the near future. A second generation "relocatable" THEL system is currently considered for deployment. Such system will weigh about one-quarter the size of the current THEL and will fit into a 20 foot container which can be airlifted to forward areas. The new system will offer the same capability. Such systems are expected to cost $25 million a piece, when fielded in large numbers (30+). Future laser weapons will be based on electrically generated lasers and run on diesel fuel, rather than specially supplied chemical liquid fuel. However, while THEL based weapon could be fielded in less than two years, an equivalent system based on electrically powered laser will not be feasible before 2011. The system's radar is already operational in Israel, providing early warning from Palestinian attacks on the the city of Shderot

 

[tomahawk6]

As Nasrallah is number one on the IDF target list it would be surprising if he returns to Lebanon until after a ceasefire. His two patrons cannot be too happy with him.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1153292012439

 

[GAP]

In the same vein

Lebanese Palestinians to join Hizbullah
By KHALED ABU TOAMEH  Jul. 25, 2006 21:33 | Updated Jul. 25, 2006 22:15
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291995975&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Palestinian gunmen in Lebanon are set to join the fighting against the IDF, the leader of the Fatah faction in Lebanon, Sultan Abu al-Aynain, announced on Tuesday.

He said Fatah, which is headed by Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, has thousands of fighters in Lebanon who are prepared to participate in the fighting and warned Israel against targeting Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon.

It is unclear whether the announcement was made in coordination with Abbas. Sources close to Abbas refused to comment on Abu al-Aynain's threats, but acknowledged that he was Fatah's "military commander" in Lebanon.

The sources pointed out that in the past, Abu al-Aynain had dispatched Palestinians to Iraq to fight against US troops.

"We are interested in defending our camps and we will fight with honor to preserve our dignity," Abu al-Aynain told the Al-Arabiya TV News Channel. "We will resist any attempt to approach our camps."
More on link

 

[tomahawk6]

THEL wont be operational until 2007.

 

[pbi]

The new system will offer the same capability. Such systems are expected to cost $25 million a piece

How many of these would you have to deploy to provide a useful level of protection for civilian areas?  This seems like an awfully rich and complicated way to take out very cheap and quite plentiful dumb-ass ballistic systems like Katyusha, 120mm mor, or whatever else Hizbollah has got. The power consumption must be hideous.  What's wrong with CM/CB radar guiding a PGM response? Seems much more flexible, simple and cost-efficient to me.

Cheers

 

[tomahawk6]

Some info.

http://www.defense-update.com/directory/THEL.htm

http://www.missilethreat.com/systems/thel.html

 

[GAP]

On a side note...radars are being used to focus on traffic

New radar system for troops in Afghanistan
Thursday July 20, 2006 (0212 PST) Pak Tribune
http://paktribune.com/news/index.shtml?150365

LONDON: RADAR technology developed for the RAF will be rushed into service three years early to combat terrorists operating across the borders in Iraq and Afghanistan, defence sources revealed.
The Astor surveillance system will be used to scan hundreds of miles of desert and mountains to pinpoint insurgents smuggling guns, bombs, drugs and fighters.

As the Taliban campaign grows in intensity in Helmand province, Afghanistan, where almost 4,000 British troops are based, the new system’s ability to pick out lorries and cars from hundreds of miles away will stop reinforcements.

Astor (Airborne Stand Off Radar) will also be pressed into operation to spy on Iraq’s border with Iran, where it is believed insurgents assemble car bombs before driving them to Basra and Baghdad.

"What other system could provide you with such border policing?’’ a senior military source said yesterday. "It is one of the things that they are crying out for in theatre.
More on Link.

 

[joaquim]

I found the reason why the program was cancelled: not inefficiency, like some here have suggested, but money.

From a column in the Wall Street Journal:

Uri Rubin, former head of the Arrow project, told me in an interview from Israel this week that the relatively poor accuracy of the cheap Katyushas has been an argument against investing in an expensive anti-Katyusha defense system. This cost-comparison calculus was one reason Israel shelved plans to deploy Northrop Grumman's THEL system, whose lasers routinely have shot down Katyushas at the Army's White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico. Speaking this week about the earlier decision, Mr. Rubin said, "You also have to compare the cost of no defense"--for lives or infrastructure.

The column covers in details the strategic importance of these cheap, short range rockets that can carry chemical or biological agents. Uri Rubin calls them "ideal weapons for terrorizing population centers."

The friends of Hezbollah have rencently denounced in Montreal's streets the low value placed on Muslim lives in Lebanon. I wonder how much a Jew's life weighs in this "cost-comparison calculus".

http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/dhenninger/?id=110008713

 

[acclenticularis]

News item from CBC ... very interesting

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2006/07/28/lahoud-interview.html

 

[Kirkhill]

http://web.mit.edu/cascon/cases/case_lbn.html

It needs to be done zipperhead but I have some understanding for nova_flush's countrymen's position.  They fought a 15 year civil war from 1975 to 1990 that ultimately saw 53 private armies roaming the countryside (according to MIT), every regional power involved as well as the major powers, no central government in a controlling position and the Israelis in the South.  It needs to be done but it may be difficult to find people to go back to the fight.

 

[geo]

Interesting pictures but............ what's so damning?
Hezbollah is a militia = no uniforms. They carry out hit and run attacks throughout southern Lebanon.  One minute they are civies minding their own business, the next they fire off rockets behind the "protection" of local citzens.... then to dissapear within the fleeing population mass once they have carried out their dirty deed.

But this is not new and I don't find it all that damning.

 

[George Wallace]

Hezbollah is a militia = no uniforms. They carry out hit and run attacks throughout southern Lebanon.  One minute they are civies minding their own business, the next they fire off rockets behind the "protection" of local citzens.... then to dissapear within the fleeing population mass once they have carried out their dirty deed.

Odd?  I wouldn't call them at all a 'militia', as I would perceive a Militia to have some form of rudimentary uniforms.  I would look at these photos as those taken of "Terrorists", who are not identified as 'combatants' under the rules of the Geneva Conventions.

 

[vonGarvin]

Interesting pictures but............ what's so damning?
Hezbollah is a militia = no uniforms. They carry out hit and run attacks throughout southern Lebanon.  One minute they are civies minding their own business, the next they fire off rockets behind the "protection" of local citzens.... then to dissapear within the fleeing population mass once they have carried out their dirty deed.

But this is not new and I don't find it all that damning.

Think about it.  Sure, they have no uniforms.  Big deal.  But, they park next to a house, fire off rockets, and then scream bloody murder when that neighbourhood is levelled.  Imagine some yahoos driving up to YOUR house and blasting off rockets.  I'd be hurling rocks at them, firing my potato gun at them, whatever, and then getting the heck out of dodge ASAP.
There are many who decry the loss of civilian life over there.  Good for them.  They all blame Isreal.  Bad for them.  Where are the anti-hezbollah demonstrations?  Nowhere to be found.  PM Harper comes out on the side of the ELECTED DEMOCRATIC government that is suffering rocket attacks that are deliberately fired on their populace and HE is criticised?  This planet of ours needs another flood, I swear!

 

[vonGarvin]

Odd?  I wouldn't call them at all a 'militia', as I would perceive a Militia to have some form of rudimentary uniforms.  I would look at these photos as those taken of "Terrorists", who are not identified as 'combatants' under the rules of the Geneva Conventions.

I wouldn't even call it a "Levee en masse", since they started this whole affair.  Hell, all you need is an armband, something that the French Resistance even did!

 

[Loachman]

The point of the headline is that it shows why civilian buildings are being hit - not because Israel simply gets off on devastating civilian buildings and killing women and children, but because Hezbollah is using immoral, if effective, tactics. The Israeli strikes are shown to be on legitimate targets. While hardcore protesters/anti-Israelis will of course continue to blame Israel, more reasonable people will understand why Israel is dropping bombs in towns.

So far, Hezbollah has been winning the propaganda war. This article shows the other side.

 

[George Wallace]

Hrm... all of those civillian casualities...

....whose weapons were taken to be used by others...(So the Press and authorities wouldn't find them.)

 

[couchcommander]

Indeed, what I was going for.

The difference between a hizballah, and a civillian, in this case, is the gun his buddy took away.

 

[Centurian1985]

Bo your forgetting something.  Something that is done in Iraq and A Stan.  When you come up to a building that has enemy and civies you must make the determination to go around them or through them.  If you decide to go through them you call in an air strike to minimize your own casualties.   That's what boots on the ground does.

For those who dont already know this is a common tactic used by rebels, insurgents, terrorists, and even national armed forces of countries involved in civil war or independence.  The purpose is to create a win-win situation for a force (Side A) by placing unarmed civilians either on or very close to valid military targets.  This causes either a) the attacker (Side B) sees the close proximity of civilians and decides not to attack to target, thus saving the target from destruction (but Side A is still violating LOAC and Geneva Concventions), or b) the attacker (Side B) attacks anyway with the result that innocent civilians (Side A) are injured or killed thus giving the defenders (Side A) several minutes of useful propoganda or their cause.  These are planned contingency plans, not accidents, used successfully in Iraq and the Balkans, to name a few places.  In both cases, the force using civilians as a shield (Side A) are at fault as any responsible military force is expected to evacuate the civilians from the engagement area.  The attacking force (Side B) is in a lose-lose situation: they lose if they attack due to undesired casualties (Side A) and they lose if they dont attack because the military assets can be used to cause undesired casualties on thir own side (Side B).  Faced with a choice of their opponents (Side A) having casualties or themselves (Side B) having casualties, they are forced to inflict unwanted casualties on the enemy (Side A).