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Left wing.

We all went to the political compass site as part of our 1st year politics class. Very interesting, but has to be taken with a grain of salt. I like the graphs where they have placed different political leaders and show where you place respective of those people.

For an experiment, try answering in extremes. Go all Left on one, see where the graph puts you. Next, go all Right. You would think that this would give you the two extremes on the graph.

The people running the site have their own agenda and belief set, just as everyone does. When using a tool like this, it can be interesting and thought provoking, but you must be aware of its limitations.

I ended up right beside Gandhi, as did most of us "more experienced" in the class. I little bit surprising to those that know me (but not so much to myself). The "less experienced" were, invariably, all slightly right of centre (on the graph). That started some interesting debates.
 
It is true that it is not all the accurate. It does give on a rough idea. (I.e. it put me left of centre, but close to Gandhi as well) but I would not say I am like Gandhi. I'm not a pacifist for one... I think one would at least need a three axis graph. One for economic, one for social-domestic, and one for foreign policy/military views...
 
Where the rubber hits the road is this: what are you willing to do in pursuit of your aims?

Many of the ideals of leftists (or for that matter those of any stripe) are lofty, and difficult to achieve.  What can happen when the going gets difficult, is that shortcuts may be taken - a few eggs are broken, here and there.  It comes to pass one day that people are being imprisoned and executed for their beliefs or unwillingness to live by someone else's rules, and everyone wonders how the hell it happened.  The facts that authoritarian schemes are most effective for implementing change, and that evil people tend to be attracted to authoritarian governments, does not help.
 
A howler from Chris Muir (read "Day by Day" http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/ for a daily dose)

 
I always see that wackos are just that, they are on the left and the right. They both are blinded by their convictions. Both use canned speeches to get their points across and whine when they don't get their way. They also tend to attack the person, not the problem

There are always three solutions to a problem, the left, the right and the proper one.
 
Brad Sallows said:
Where the rubber hits the road is this: what are you willing to do in pursuit of your aims?

Many of the ideals of leftists (or for that matter those of any stripe) are lofty, and difficult to achieve.  What can happen when the going gets difficult, is that shortcuts may be taken - a few eggs are broken, here and there.  It comes to pass one day that people are being imprisoned and executed for their beliefs or unwillingness to live by someone else's rules, and everyone wonders how the hell it happened.  The facts that authoritarian schemes are most effective for implementing change, and that evil people tend to be attracted to authoritarian governments, does not help.

+1

I find that for the most part leftists are well-intentioned....They just tend to be overly optimistic about human nature.  I'll give you an example.  When people on the right (and since that can mean so many things I'm going to specify that in this case "right" means "military interventionist") listen to Ahmedinejad in Iran, they tend to look back to Hitler, and reason that we'll measure his deeds and not trust his words.  When the people on the left listen to Ahmedinejad in Iran, they tend to project their own good-will and good-intentions onto the guy.  There seems to be an internal conflict where those on the left can't rationalize that people can be inherently bad or even evil.  Ergo, the left tends to apologize for the acts, behaviours of those truly evil men.  I think why military guys tend to get upset with the apologist left (again this applies only to foreign policy, not domestic policy like the social safety net) is that they see with their own eyes the costs of not acting quickly enough when evil men do take action against the defenseless and after-the-fact they're sent in to try to put the pieces of broken nations back together.

Add into that, the tendency to contend that "America is the root of all evil" while going through a great deal of effort to ignore the blood on the hands of countries like China and Russia, and occassionally frustration is bound to boil over.

That's just one civvies' opinion....


Matthew.  :salute:

P.S.  For the record, I'm socially liberal (same sex marriage isn't going to hurt me, universal health care is a necessary equalizer, and welfare for those that simply are unable to provide for themselves is a civic responsibility, etc.), fiscally conservative (you never spend more than you earn so no deficits, governments by nature are horridly inefficient users of money and as such unless absolutely necessary money should remain in the pockets of citizens who will use it better, and those that would take advantage of our social safety net should be excluded from any future benefits, etc.), and foreign policy-wise I'm an interventionist (all humans regardless of their location should have the right to life and some measure of freedom, and allowing bullies and tyrants to abuse, maim, rape and kill those that cannot defend themselves is fundamentally and morally wrong).
 
This is an idea of what we could be drifting towards, unchecked and arbitrary power being used to indoctrinate children. Fortunately, I am able to choose to send my children to a private school which is in accord with my values:

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1114

Brussels Journal Editor Threatened with Prosecution over Homeschooling
From the desk of Alexandra Colen on Thu, 2006-06-15 00:05

Yesterday my husband Paul Belien, the editor of this website, was summoned to the police station and interrogated. He was told that the Belgian authorities are of the opinion that, as a homeschooler, he has not adequately educated his children and, hence, is neglecting his duty as a parent, which is a criminal offence. The Ministry of Education has asked the judiciary to press charges and the judiciary told the police to investigate and take down his statement.

It appears that the Belgian authorities are again considering prosecution – the second time in barely two months. This time the claim is not that my husband posted allegedly “racist” texts on this website but that he is failing his children.

My husband, a lawyer by training, and I, a former university lecturer, have homeschooled four of our five children through high school. These four have meanwhile moved on to university. Our youngest child is also being homeschooled, but she has yet to obtain her high school certificate, for which she is currently taking exams. Like her four siblings she takes these exams before the Central Examination Board (CEB), an institution run by the Ministry of Education. The Belgian Constitution, written in 1831, allows parents to homeschool. The CEB exists to enable people who have not attended or who have failed school to obtain an official high school certificate.

Since we started homeschooling in the 1990s the homeschooling movement in Belgium has been growing. The number of homeschoolers is small, comprising only 202 children in primary school and 311 children in high school. Nevertheless the figure has quadrupled in the past five years, as parents are seceding from the official schools where drugs and violence are rampant and pupils are indoctrinated with political correctness and socialism.

The fact that a growing group of children seems to be escaping from the government’s influence clearly bothers the authorities. Three years ago a new school bill was introduced. The new bill refers to the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and it obliges homeschooling parents to fill out a questionaire and sign an official “declaration of homeschooling” in which they agree to school their children “respecting the respect [sic] for the fundamental human rights and the cultural values of the child itself and of others.”

The declaration does not specify what “respecting the respect for the fundamental human rights and the cultural values of the child itself and of others” means. It states, however, that government inspectors decide about this and adds – and here is the crux of the matter – that if the parents receive two negative reports from the inspectors they will have to send their child to an official government recognized school.

My husband and I have refused to sign this statement since we are unwilling to put our signature under a document that forces us to send our children to government controlled schools if two state inspectors decide on the basis of arbitrary criteria that we are not “respecting the respect for the fundamental human rights and the cultural values of the child itself and of others.”

According to the Ministry of Education we have violated the law. The judiciary asked the police to take down my husband’s statement, but he refused to sign any document. He was informed that he might soon be taken to court.

Last month Michael Farris, the chairman of the American Home School Legal Defense Association (HSLDA), warned that the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child could make homeschooling illegal in the U.S., even though the US Senate has never ratified this Convention.

According to some activist judges the UN Convention is “customary international law. [...] The fact that virtually every other nation in the world has adopted it has made it part of customary international law, and it means that it should be considered part of American jurisprudence.”

Under the Convention severe limitations are placed on parents’ right to direct and train their children. Under Article 13 parents could be subject to prosecution for any attempt to prevent their children from interacting with material they deem unacceptable. Under Article 14 children are guaranteed “freedom of thought, conscience and religion” – in other words, children have a legal right to object to all religious training. And under Article 15 the child has a right to “freedom of association.”

Michael Farris pointed out that in 1995 “the United Kingdom was deemed out of compliance” with the Convention “because it allowed parents to remove their children from public school sex-education classes without consulting the child.” The HSLDA chairman said that, “by the same reasoning, parents would be denied the ability to homeschool their children unless the government first talked with their children and the government decided what was best. Moreover, parents would no longer have the right to bring up their children according to their own philosophical or religious beliefs, as the government, following the guidelines of a UN “committee of experts” would determine what religious teaching, if any, served the child’s best interest.”

Belgium, always quick to adopt and implement any measures aimed at undermining traditional morality and destroying the family, is already putting the decrees of the UN Convention into practice. Article 29 of the Convention stipulates that it is the goal of the State to direct the education of the people it governs toward the philosophy of the New World Order as “enshrined in the charter of the United Nations.” It also stipulates that each child must be prepared to be a responsible citizen by having “the spirit of understanding, peace, toleration, equity of sexes, and friendship [for] all peoples, ethnic, national and religious groups of indigenous origin.” Except probably those to which their parents belong.

Hence all homeschooling parents in Belgium are sent a form in which they are ordered to sign away their parental right to choose their children’s education, to adopt the “mimimum goals set out in the [2003] law on compulsory education,” namely “to respect the fundamental human rights and the cultural values of the child itself and of others” (with the state unilaterally deciding what these human rights and “cultural values” are), and to send their children to state approved schools if state inspectors deem that their schooling does not comply with the aforementioned “minimum goals.”

Parents who sign away their right to educate their own children are subsequently harassed and intimidated. Three families that we know have had to allow inspectors into their homes who interrogate and intimidate their children, then write a report that they are not in compliance with the minimum requirements (viz. the cultural values clause) set out in the signed document, announce that they will return for further inspection and that the children who fail to qualify will be forcibly sent to schools that are officially recognised by the government.

Nowhere, however, do these inspectors outline what they are inspecting and what criteria they apply. After a lifetime of inspecting schools with clearly defined curricula to determine whether the latter qualify for subsidies and recognition of their certificates, they are now set loose on families with no other purpose than to find fault and remove their children from their care. The families do not want subsidies or recognition of certificates, so there are no objective criteria for them to meet. Their children are questioned randomly on a variety of topics, irrespective of their own educational goals, age or curriculum. And they cannot protest the inspectors’ arbitrary verdict as they have signed away their right as citizens to appeal to a higher educational authority or to the courts.

Parents who do not sign away their right to educate their own children are regarded as not educating their children at all, and hence are guilty of a criminal offence.
 
Well not to get into TOO big of an argument (the article is bunk and full of speculation and fear mongering) but a really amusing bit for me is:

the United Kingdom was deemed out of compliance” with the Convention “because it allowed parents to remove their children from public school sex-education classes without consulting the child.” The HSLDA chairman said that, “by the same reasoning, parents would be denied the ability to homeschool their children unless the government first talked with their children and the government decided what was best

Um, no, sorry.

By THAT same reasoning, a parent wouldn't be allowed to pull their child out of school without consulting THE CHILD... I didn't see anything about the government mentioned. 

And I'm sorry, though I am not belgian and I don't keep up with Belgian politics, I strongly suspect that the "critera" that the inspectors will be applying is an effort to prevent things like this:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/02/04/family.torture/

An extreme example... but it's there (eat that Anne Coulter!)

Not, as is being insinuated by the article, making sure your children are nice and brainwashed.

Oh, wait, another blatant contradiction in the article itself!

to respect the fundamental human rights and the cultural values of the child itself and of others” (with the state unilaterally deciding what these human rights and “cultural values” are

No, sorry, try again. Do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars.

To me, at least, the child itself would be the one who decides what the values of the child itself are...

Once again i don't want to speculate, but I suspect it is to prevent something along the lines of a child who has decided to become a devout protestant only being taught out of the Koran, or vice versa.  As I said though, my involvement with Belgian politics is basically nothing.


(Oh no! How dare the government try and ensure that children grow up with a well rounded education in a non-abusive environment that takes into consideration their own wishes! They're coming to get us all! They're everywhere!!! Oh, wait.. you mean we elected them?)

(ok, that last bit was just for fun... but I did enjoy it).  ;D
 
Denying due process to achieve such an end is not acceptable. Standards should be written down with specificity and the right to appeal should not be denied. Such vague administrative orders with no rights to appeal are instruments of a totalitarian state.
 
Couch, you are forgetting that a child, by definition, unable to determine what is in his or her own best interestsand is thus unable to enter a contract. As a parent, asking the child what they want outside of fairly limited and prescribed boundaries (which are adjusted as the child matures) is simply asking for trouble. If a government official is asking the child, they are in contravention of commonly understood contract law (i.e. people under the age of majority are unable make decisions or enter binding contracts), and the principle of parental care and guidance of the child and child's welfare.

But that is the point, the State wishes to act "in loco parentis", and since the post is the first hand experience of this couple, I would not dismiss it as "Bunk" or "Speculation". You may interpret it as you wish, of course, but perhaps you should follow the link and see if you can email these people in order to find out what is really happening over there (since you point out you are not well versed with Belgian politics and government) before passing judgement.
 
DBA said:
Denying due process to achieve such an end is not acceptable. Standards should be written down with specificity and the right to appeal should not be denied.

Couldn't agree more.

a_majoor - you are right about the legal status of a child - the conventions ask that the child's wishes be taken into consideration, it does not ultimately take away decision making power from the parents.

And I apologize if I came off sounding like I was discounting the experience of the parents, I myself have been frustrated on more than one occasion when dealing with various levels of government. My comments re: the "bunk" and "speculation" were in regards to the commentary attached to their story by various persons predicting the overthrow of personal liberties in Belgium - I did not need to be very well versed to find obvious contradictions in the story itself, leading me to my conclusions.
 
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