Legion Poppy Copyright issues (bikers, NHL, etc.)

[Gunner98]

The solution is simple: everyone, except the RCL, should stop using the poppy. Stop buying them, stop wearing them, stop displaying them.

Please don't forget the RCL Poppy Trust Fund and its daily good work: http://www.legion.ca/ServiceBureau/BenevolentFunds_e.cfm

Each year approximately 18 million poppies are distributed by Legionnaires, Veterans and cadets across the nation. The proceeds, after deducting expenses such as the costs of poppies, wreaths and other supplies, are placed in trust to be used for the benevolent support of Veterans and their dependants.

The primary purpose of the Poppy Trust Fund is to provide financial assistance to ex-servicemen and women in need, and to their dependants. In accordance with the General By-laws of The Royal Canadian Legion, the need may be for shelter, food, fuel, clothing, prescription medicine or necessary transportation. Comforts for ex-service personnel and their surviving spouses who are hospitalized and in need may also be provided. These comforts are defined as confectioneries, reading material, flowers, personal toiletry articles, and other items of a similar nature.

 

[Jarnhamar]

One of the many examples for why I no longer go near the Legions.

Couldn't agree more.  I have no interest in joining the legion and this just adds to that. No one from my generation seems to have any real interest in it either. The legion feels like a bunch of civilians running it who 'put up' with having to be associated with the current CF but don't like it.

I've stopped going to the legion for things like suppers put on for afghan vets and I won't go visiting on rememberence day anymore.

Every year around this time there is some story about the legion getting angry and offended over something.

 

[FlyingDutchman]

Looking closlely, I cannot really tell which version of the poppy it is.  Heck, if someone didn't tell me it was a poppy, I might have even noticed it there.

 

[the 48th regulator]

This one was my favourite......



Legion burns cookies

Bakery told to nix poppy tribute



By JOE WARMINGTON

Last Updated: 6th November 2009, 5:33am


First it was the Highway of Heroes pins shunned and now the Royal Canadian Legion feels the baking of poppy cookies is violating the rules, too.
What was it John McCrae wrote in his 1915 poem In Flanders Fields?
"Take up our quarrel with the foe: To you from failing hands we throw, the torch; be yours to hold it high. If ye break faith with us who die; We shall not sleep though poppies grow; In Flanders fields."
Somehow the Canadian doctor on the frontlines of the First World War who immortalized the poppy wasn't thinking this when he wrote of a "quarrel with the foe" and "the torch" be ours to hold high.
But sadly here we are 94 years later.

Imagine even the suggestion that a Cobourg bakery, fulfilling the order of some poppy cookies for the family of a fallen Canadian soldier from the Afghanistan conflict, would be breaking the copyright rules for the poppy?






"That would be a violation of the trademark," explains Royal Canadian Legion spokesman Bob Butt, adding the legion understands people are "well meaning" when they use the poppy and unaware of the rules.
But rules are rules.
"You would not believe the misuses of the poppy we have to investigate," Butt says.
Unaware of this copyright, the people at the Dutch Oven Bakery say that, now that they know, "we won't fulfil the order if asked again next year."
We are supposed to be at war with the Taliban, not each other. We have Canadians at bitter odds over who gets to use the poppy to raise money for victims of war.
Can't imagine our brave soldiers dying in battle for this.
And although the legion has taken a tough stand at the top end, not everybody agrees at the branch level.
"They have got to get their head out of their butts," says Wayne Powell, poppy chairman for Scarborough's Legion Branch 258 and a retired 54 Division copper.
"They are turning down an opportunity to raise a lot of money for veterans' families. These things will sell like hotcakes."
The part that irks him is that there seems to be selective fairness. He says the legion permits the use of the poppy for certain events and charities, while declining others.
And Powell can't understand why it's OK for a hockey team to use a poppy on its sweater to raffle off but not pins and cookies.
He feels it should be equal for everybody and he also wants a softer approach from legion brass, saying for them to go easier on the threatening lawyer letters.
However, Butt points out that the legion has the right to do with the poppy what it feels is in its best interest and that none of it has ever been for commercial use.
The money it raises, he says, is used very well.
Meanwhile, those baking cookies or who've made the pins certainly had no intention of breaking any rules and had the best of intentions of helping military families.
Butt says it has nothing to do with that. It isn't theirs to use. It's that simple. The fact is the legion "has the copyright" on the poppy.
"In the case of the Highway of Heroes pins, permission to use the poppy was not sought and permission was not granted."
He says those pins create direct competition for the poppy fund, which already generates $15 million a year.
"That money goes directly to the veterans," Butt says. "Does the money from the cookies?"
The Highway of Heroes pins have raised more than $8,000 for Afghanistan war veterans' families, but the legion says that isn't the point.
There's a principle here and there are guidelines being broken.
Meanwhile, Paul Hallas, the Ganaraska Credit Union CEO who donated $10,000 to make the pins to raise money and awareness for families, says: "What am I supposed to do with the 2,500 pins?"
"He can give them to us and we will destroy them," Butt says.
CORPORATE MENTALITY
It seems rigid. Cold. Corporate. Branch 258's Powell says give them to him and he'll raise $50,000 to help families who need help. Damn the protocol!
Both sides make points and there's a way to work this out without it further muddying the pristine image of the poppy, of which every Canadian living free has a piece of in their hearts.
There's enough poppy to go around for everybody if it means getting more help to the brave men and women who defend our nation.
In the middle of writing this, I re-read medic John McCrae's In Flanders Fields and couldn't find the words copyright infringement, exclusive or cease and desist anywhere.
What you'll find is a passage that reads:
"We are the dead. Short days ago, we lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow, loved, and were loved, and now we lie In Flanders fields."
Let's not forget that or them. In the name of those who died under our flag, what we need here is compromise.
[email protected]

Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act




I find it crass that they would use a lawyer to send the cease and desist.  Why not try with asking directly.  I mean, they were just putting it on a bike patch, not makeing products and selling it on ebay.

dileas

tess

 

[Gunner98]

I am wondering if the Legion's lawyers will next go after every flower shop, landscaper and garden store like Home Depot for selling poppies and their seeds from which the profits to do not go to the RCL. ???

 

[dapaterson]

Does the Legion provide an open, transparent, public accounting of the Poppy Fund expenditures?  I'm rather partial to making charitible donations to well-run organizations that are open in all they do.


Currently, fewer than 1 in 3 Legion members have prior military service.  Memebers without military service have been the majority since the mid 1980s.  The Legion membership has been steadily shrinking; the last time membership increased was in 1989.  In the subsequent years over 250 000 members have been lost.

The Legion is in a long, slow death spiral.  The case that started this thread would ahve been an excellent opportunity for the Legion to reach out and welcome others - imagine if their lawyers had, instead, invited the CVFR to discuss a licensing agreement.  Something along the lines of "We're glad to see you want to participate in remembrance; the poppy is our trademark, let's talk and make your use legal."

 

[FlyingDutchman]

Legion burns cookies

(SNIP!)

*Eyetwitch.*  :brickwall:

 

[Danjanou]

Does the Legion provide an open, transparent, public accounting of the Poppy Fund expenditures?  I'm rather partial to making charitible donations to well-run organizations that are open in all they do.


Currently, fewer than 1 in 3 Legion members have prior military service.  Memebers without military service have been the majority since the mid 1980s.  The Legion membership has been steadily shrinking; the last time membership increased was in 1989.  In the subsequent years over 250 000 members have been lost.

The Legion is in a long, slow death spiral.  The case that started this thread would ahve been an excellent opportunity for the Legion to reach out and welcome others - imagine if their lawyers had, instead, invited the CVFR to discuss a licensing agreement.  Something along the lines of "We're glad to see you want to participate in remembrance; the poppy is our trademark, let's talk and make your use legal."

Apparently not

http://www.on.legion.ca/

At least not to outsiders. Financial statments including Poppy Funds are presented at meeetings  at all levels Branch, Zone, nd District  i've attended and theri is acountability internally.  Seems you're right re membership ratios too

http://www.rcldistrictd.com/Membership.html  Some branches and cliques are worse than others too. Another sad fact I deal with on a regualr basis.

 

[Jimmy_D]

I am surprised they allow the design of veterans plates with poppies on them, with the way they are going. What is the difference between a poppy on you license plate, to a poppy on a patch of a VETERANS bikers club?

 

[Danjanou]

I am surprised they allow the design of veterans plates with poppies on them, with the way they are going. What is the difference between a poppy on you license plate, to a poppy on a patch of a VETERANS bikers club?

Simple the Legion gets $5.00 per plate application

Application for Veteran Plate Eligibility Certifi cation
Section 3 - To be completed by Signing Authority of The Royal Canadian Legion, Ontario Provincial
Command.
IPlease Note: To receive a Veteran plate, this application form (signed and stamped by the
Royal Canadian Legion, Ontario Command) must be submitted, with all other required
applications and documents, to your local ServiceOntario centre.
Instructions: Mail completed form, photocopies of proof of service, fee and a self addressed stamped
envelope to the Royal Canadian Legion Offi ce to the address at the top of this application form. Make cheque or money
order in the amount of $5.00 payable to: The Royal Canadian Legion, Ontario Provincial Command.
For information concerning the status of your application, please call Tel: (905) 841-7999

http://www.on.legion.ca/membersOnly/Documents/VeteransLicencePlateEnglish.pdf

 

[Towards_the_gap]

And here's me, just about to fill out a legion application.......Nevermind thinks I.

As many have stated in this thread, it has morphed from an old-comrades association of ex-servicemen to a service club where ex-servicemen are accomodated. I was wary to begin with of joining a legion, now every time I see them trotting around in blazers, left breast bare save for an awful lot of Golden Jubilee medals (funnily enough, the one you can buy and wear quite easily without an eyebrow being raised), I think even less of the legion.

I'm almost tempted to send in my veteran plate to the dominion command, with an apology letter for my copyright infringement. (I know they get $5 from each plate, I'd just be doing it out of spite).

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Please don't forget the RCL Poppy Trust Fund and its daily good work: http://www.legion.ca/ServiceBureau/BenevolentFunds_e.cfm

Each year approximately 18 million poppies are distributed by Legionnaires, Veterans and cadets across the nation. The proceeds, after deducting expenses such as the costs of poppies, wreaths and other supplies, are placed in trust to be used for the benevolent support of Veterans and their dependants.

The primary purpose of the Poppy Trust Fund is to provide financial assistance to ex-servicemen and women in need, and to their dependants. In accordance with the General By-laws of The Royal Canadian Legion, the need may be for shelter, food, fuel, clothing, prescription medicine or necessary transportation. Comforts for ex-service personnel and their surviving spouses who are hospitalized and in need may also be provided. These comforts are defined as confectioneries, reading material, flowers, personal toiletry articles, and other items of a similar nature.

This doesn't apply universally. Branches can 'opt out'. Mine for example. Money brought in by the sale of poppies, in my Branch, stays in my Branch for use by my Branch. It doesn't go to Dominion, where most of the money is now eaten up in administartive costs, instead of going for what it was originally intended (all those other things for Veterans, that you stated).

Face it. The Legion has lost it's intent and focus. It's now a civie corporation run by civies for the civies. Veterens are simply an afterthought and a beacon they can point to as a figurehead reason for existing. Some small enclaves, staffed by Veterans, for Veterans, still exist but we are getting fewer and fewer. Soon, they will all be swallowed up by the civies that wear Legion outfits, with their right chest full of Legion bling shaking hands and running ceremonies on Nov 11 and spending the rest of the year grousing that Veterans won't shore up their little clubs.

 

[Michael OLeary]

And all of this is why I belong to a (perhaps the only) Legion branch that has never owned a building, does not participate in commercial activities, holds only two meetings (read: dinners) per year and nearly all members are serving or retired military.

 

[ArmyRick]

Too sad to see that is what it has become. Basically the theme seems to be The RCL is mostly a social club? I was a member of the RCL but not anymore.

 

[vonGarvin]

As I understand it, the Royal Canadian Legion was founded out of several veterans' associations.  Maybe it's time to put a fork in this one, because it's done?

But I feel that there is a need for some sort of Vetarans' Associations.  Not just one, but several.  You could have the Cold War Veterans' Association, the Peacekeeping Veterans' Association and even the Afghan War Veterans' Association, all loosely affiliated under the umbrella of a Canadian Veterans' Association.

The aim?  Simply a place for those veterans to maintain ties, support one another, lobby government, encourage remembrance, including education.


I don't know.  These are just random thoughts from a guy pontificating on the internet, so take it for what it's worth...

 

[Danjanou]

C'mon Michael share, so we can transfer there. My little enclave ( and that's the best description) isn't too bad, there are a higher perscentage of actual retired military in my branch and on the executive than I've seen in others probably the reason I t transferred to it.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I would say that the original objective of the RCL has been taken over by the civilians.  But, perhaps we as serving members have surrendered this ground and allowed it to degrade to this point.  Mind you this is not (complaints by military folk) necessarily new.  My Dad told me that when he returned home from overseas in 45 he went to the No. 1 Legion Branch in Calgary to find that he was refused entry as he was just back from the war.  Needless to say he was pissed at the treatment and did not become a member until decades had passed.  I suspect that most of us here have some TI and are more mature in years.  Does such a thing as a veteran's organization interest the youngsters today?  I agree with Techno that we have to take our institution back or make a split and begin again.  But are there enough of us that care and can make this happen out there?

 

[Danjanou]

As I understand it, the Royal Canadian Legion was founded out of several veterans' associations.  Maybe it's time to put a fork in this one, because it's done?

But I feel that there is a need for some sort of Vetarans' Associations.  Not just one, but several.  You could have the Cold War Veterans' Association, the Peacekeeping Veterans' Association and even the Afghan War Veterans' Association, all loosely affiliated under the umbrella of a Canadian Veterans' Association.

The aim?  Simply a place for those veterans to maintain ties, support one another, lobby government, encourage remembrance, including education.


I don't know.  These are just random thoughts from a guy pontificating on the internet, so take it for what it's worth...

Downside of that is that if you really want to lobby Government on veteran's rights, and influence public opinion you need numbers and that's means one large organization rather that dozens of smaller niche ones. What kind of brand name loyalty or impact do the following individual groups have on the general populace?

http://www.ncva-cnaac.ca/ncva/?page_id=5

Want to bet most are not aware there were so many organizations. As for the umbrella organization that I posted the link on, well we all know how well umbrella coalitions work?

Perhaps it may be better to retake what was ours rather than reinvent the wheel. We already have some enclaves for a firm base to start from it seems. It may be futile in the long run, but it could at least be entertaining.

 

[muskrat89]

A bit off-topic, but I believe pertinent. For those of you frustrated with the RCL but value the good work done for veterans, there is an alternative.

http://www.anavets.ca/

If there's not a Unit in your area, you can start one - that's what I did in Woodstock, NB.

 

[Good2Golf]

Reinforcing its own irrelevance!  :not-again:


If not already done, CVFR should ensure the poppy is a stylized image, which is not trademarked.  While I hadn't really any thoughts of joining the Legion upon my retirement, this unfolding of event has convinced me that the Legion will not be part of my future.  It's not about the poppy, it's about the detached, legalistic spirit the Dominion command has used.  The Legion will get no support from this veteren-to-be.


Here's an option: Soldier On!


Note that 100% of donations to Soldier On are given to the soldiers -- there is no administration fee taken from donations, admin is paid by the crown.

What percentage of the donation is spent on administrative costs?
No administrative costs are deducted from a donation. 100% of contributions go directly to support injured soldiers.

Regards
G2G