Leo 2A6M CAN - are they in service?

[MilEME09]

Most of the Leo 2A4 And A4M's are with the Strathcona's , and the Leo 2A6M's are coming back from rebuild all re painted in CARC green with the slat armour & attachments , Velcro cudda cam patches removed. Plus they have added front /rear updated camera's like the Leo 2A4M.

RECCE SENDS

I'm sure the MG3's have been torn out and sent back to the germans, and replaced with C6's as well

 

[myself.only]

Most of the Leo 2A4 And A4M's are with the Strathcona's , and the Leo 2A6M's are coming back from rebuild all re painted in CARC green with the slat armour & attachments , Velcro cudda cam patches removed. Plus they have added front /rear updated camera's like the Leo 2A4M.

RECCE SENDS

I was kind of surprised that the CA website seemed to focus on the 2A4s rather than the 6s.
Wondered if the "plan" was to maintain a concentration of Leos in one Regt, or procure more Leos - especially the 6s - and adopt a standard Armoured Regiment ORBAT of X Tank Tps per Sqn with X Leo 2A6Ms per Tp, or... well, whatever.

 

[MilEME09]

Or maybe they will use the sixs as command tanks within armoured squadrons?

 

[George Wallace]

I was kind of surprised that the CA website seemed to focus on the 2A4s rather than the 6s.
Wondered if the "plan" was to maintain a concentration of Leos in one Regt, or procure more Leos - especially the 6s - and adopt a standard Armoured Regiment ORBAT of X Tank Tps per Sqn with X Leo 2A6Ms per Tp, or... well, whatever.

NOT likely.  The Canadian Government is not going to budget for more tanks at anytime in the foreseeable future.  They have more serious Budget concerns, none of which include more money to the CAF.

 

[Franko]

Or maybe they will use the sixs as command tanks within armoured squadrons?

Or perhaps they will give them to senior crews in order to properly employ the additional capabilities.

The Corps is still dealing with these issues.

As for additional A6s....don't hold your breath.

 

[myself.only]

IIRC in Normandy it was a pretty common practice to have one Firefly in each Sherman tp, dispersing the additional capabilities to the lowest tactical level.  I had wondered if the 6s would be treated in similar fashion.

 

[Kirkhill]

Here's a question:

Now that the dust has started to settle on this issue does anybody know the final numbers of each of the variants to be taken into service?

Leo 2A6
Leo 2A4
ARV
AVRE
Numbers sourced for cannibalizing.

With the various vehicles bought/leased/returned/bastardized from Germany/Netherlands/Switzerland the actual size and composition of the "fleet" escapes me.

 

[George Wallace]

IIRC in Normandy it was a pretty common practice to have one Firefly in each Sherman tp, dispersing the additional capabilities to the lowest tactical level.  I had wondered if the 6s would be treated in similar fashion.

Having a 'mixed fleet' causes many problems and expenses when it comes to maintenance, repairs and replacements.  It strains the units storage of parts, ordering of parts, expertise of maintainers and crews.  Logistical nightmare may be one word for it.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

NOT likely.  The Canadian Government is not going to budget for more tanks at anytime in the foreseeable future.  They have more serious Budget concerns, none of which include more money to the CAF.

Just weld more handles on the outside and call them a CCV........

 

[Kirkhill]

Just weld more handles on the outside and call them a CCV........

Nah.....simpler yet.  Just lift out the turrets and call them Kangaroo IIs.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Combat proven, domestically sourced capabilities, fits into our Canadian heritage drive and will be the perfect vehicle to show off the new pips. Perhaps if we can find some of the turrets from the Grizzlies to mount on them  to provide fire support.?

 

[Franko]

IIRC in Normandy it was a pretty common practice to have one Firefly in each Sherman tp, dispersing the additional capabilities to the lowest tactical level.  I had wondered if the 6s would be treated in similar fashion.

Fireflys (either IC or VC variants) weren't pushed to the front lines until well after Normandy. Most units got them when the Allies pushed into Holland.

There is very little ballistic differences between an A4 and an A6. They fire the same rounds and even an A4 can fire the super sabot if checked prior.

Regards

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Here's a question:

Now that the dust has started to settle on this issue does anybody know the final numbers of each of the variants to be taken into service?

Leo 2A6
Leo 2A4
ARV
AVRE
Numbers sourced for cannibalizing.

With the various vehicles bought/leased/returned/bastardized from Germany/Netherlands/Switzerland the actual size and composition of the "fleet" escapes me.

When I was tracking this the rough plan for gun tanks was eighty gun tanks with something like twenty A6M, twenty A4M and forty A4Can. These would be organized into three operational squadrons: two squadrons with LdSH(RC) and one squadron with C RCD in Gagetown (with 12 RBC pers involved). I would never forget about the sqn out east.  The School would have the remainder. Sqns would have a mixture of vehicles (it was a very busy spreadsheet). I wouldn't worry about which crews would employ which variant. The Sqns will handle that.

I can't recall the ARV numbers off the top of my head, while the Engineer variants are a separate project.

 

[Kirkhill]

Thanks T2B - I was just wondering if there had been any recent changes and what options had been decided on with respect to the numbers of ARVs and AVREs.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

The final count will be 82, with 42 with the Strats, and the remaining 40 basically split between C Sqn and the School.  I understand that a pitch was made to the new Army Commander in the last few days to have 3 Sqns out west.  As I understand it, he has tasked the Corps to come back to him before Xmas with their preferred way ahead, although he has also suggested that he will not feel bound by their recommendation...

 

[Infanteer]

We should also consider smaller squadrons with less tanks - some Armoured Officers have told me interesting ideas for 15 tank Squadrons of 3 Tps of 4 or 4 Tps of 3 - this gives the BG and Bde Comds (and the Army) more flexibility.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

...... with respect to the numbers of ARVs and AVREs.

Will they come with real live british sappers to break them too?


Wrong nomenclature methinks.

 

[Kirkhill]

Will they come with real live british sappers to break them too?


Wrong nomenclature methinks.

Details, Details.  Percy Hobart knows what I meant.  But, in the interest of moving into the current millennium, and Canada -- AEV.


Cheers, Gap.

 

[Franko]

We should also consider smaller squadrons with less tanks - some Armoured Officers have told me interesting ideas for 15 tank Squadrons of 3 Tps of 4 or 4 Tps of 3 - this gives the BG and Bde Comds (and the Army) more flexibility.

There goes your redundancy in a combat team. 4 Tps of 4 tanks allows for integral redundancy and allows for rollers and plows to be used during the attack while still having 50% of the troops guns effective.

Your way would only have one tank out of three being actually used during the assault phase. Not to be insulting, but in a conventional context, LAVs would be safely tucked away behind the LD and useless against a peer foe during that phase. Even during the intimate support phase, they'd be tucked away behind us. Two guns firing from two troops not effective fire IMHO. Three tanks plus a BC in the fire base is barely enough rounds on target as well.

Not only that, but as soon as we hit 50%, we're combat ineffective and that requires a re-jig of a Sqn, taking up valuable time on the A to C.

There is a reason why the numbers are the way they are. Afghanistan was not the way tanks are supposed to be used.

Regards

 

[vonGarvin]

We should also consider smaller squadrons with less tanks - some Armoured Officers have told me interesting ideas for 15 tank Squadrons of 3 Tps of 4 or 4 Tps of 3 - this gives the BG and Bde Comds (and the Army) more flexibility.

And....that flexibility is lost as soon as the HLTA plan kicks in....Not to mention combat losses


As for the Firefly, 342 were delivered to the 21st Army Group in time for the Normandy landings. This according to Hart, Stephen (2007). Sherman Firefly vs Tiger. Osprey Publishing