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lf Canadians will not support me now, I am compelled to join the Taliban

1feral1

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ArmyVern said:
Peace, love, serenity, apologies my ass.

Enough with that horseshit already. It's really fucking old now. Hypocrit.

Dear Vern

First, I thought you were kidding, but after re-reading, I see no emotocons or other hints to suggest this.

So Ma'am, not wishing to offend you, just wanting to clarify a few points before I go off to work, its early in the morning here.

I would have thought such a rude comment and a personal attack would have come across via PM, and not on a public forum. If I want to be sworn at and hear name calling, I'll ring my ex-wife.

Please refrain from personal attacks, 10,000 posts does not make you above the law.

Thank-you and enjoy your day.

OWDU 
 

Infanteer

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Enough.  Wes, you don't have to play the Ned Flanders post game anymore.  It's silly and comes off as condescending at times.

Vern seems to have called you on your "us" and "them" remark.  Keep in mind that "them" happens to be some of my family members, or does that make them "us" now?
 

Greymatters

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ArmyVern said:
It is the standard to pay "compensation" such as this; you're correct.

It is also in keeping with the religious and traditional beliefs of those of whom we are there to help.

Within their Muslim religious beliefs is the belief that compensation must be made for a wrongful death or that retaliation must occur.

A bit late, but I would point out that financial compensation for wrongful death is a tradition still going strong in Europe and North America - why is it being referrred to as only a Middle East/Muslim practice? 

 

armyvern

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Greymatters said:
A bit late, but I would point out that financial compensation for wrongful death is a tradition still going strong in Europe and North America - why is it being referrred to as only a Middle East/Muslim practice? 

No, in Western Nations they need to sue for that compensation (and, sometimes they win) - it's not a standard "shake hands and agree" item like it is in the culture we happen to be speaking of - that being Afghanistan - in this particular thread.

Big difference when one takes a court and/or jury decision (Western society, including most of Europe) ... and, last time I checked in Europe and North America the family of a murder victim, for example, couldn't say "I'll choose the compensation rather than hold the murderer of my wife/father accountable for the death sentence the court gave him (or even opt to kill the murderer with their own hands)."

Simply NOT comparable cultures at all.
 

Greymatters

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ArmyVern said:
No, in Western Nations they need to sue for that compensation (and, sometimes they win) - it's not a standard "shake hands and agree" item like it is in the culture we happen to be speaking of - that being Afghanistan - in this particular thread.

Big difference when one takes a court and/or jury decision (Western society, including most of Europe) ... and, last time I checked in Europe and North America the family of a murder victim, for example, couldn't say "I'll choose the compensation rather than hold the murderer of my wife/father accountable for the death sentence the court gave him (or even opt to kill the murderer with their own hands)."

Simply NOT comparable cultures at all.

Thats a matter of opinion.  The difference you cite is based on infrastructure, and the reason it is done in person, as you say, is because there is no system to administer the process formally.  But the concepts for compensation we use today are based on English common law, which once had a specific formula for loss of life and or limbs, as well as a scale based on their level of society of the person injured/killed... 

And if you think no one has asked for compensation in this country rather than hold the offender accountable, you need to read some more court cases.  Ive read more than a few where the case was settled 'out of court' which usually means money changes hands...


 

armyvern

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Greymatters said:
Thats a matter of opinion.  The difference you cite is based on infrastructure, and the reason it is done in person, as you say, is because there is no system to administer the process formally.  But the concepts for compensation we use today are based on English common law, which once had a specific formula for loss of life and or limbs, as well as a scale based on their level of society of the person injured/killed... 

And if you think no one has asked for compensation in this country rather than hold the offender accountable, you need to read some more court cases.  Ive read more than a few where the case was settled 'out of court' which usually means money changes hands...

Yes indeed, that western democratic system and way of doing business is such a wonderful difference. I'll take it ... any day!  ;)

I say again: NOT comparable.
 
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MG34

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In this case awarding of the "Saz" or blood money is not called for as seen here:

"SAZ:  The word Saz is used for blood money or compensation in lieu of killing. Under the custom of Saz a person who feels penitent after committing a deliberate murder, approaches the deceased's family through a Jirga and offers to make payment of blood money to end enmity between them. All hostilities come to an end between the parties after acceptance of Saz. Sometimes the payment of compensation takes the form of giving a girl in marriage to the aggrieved party. It is also called Swarah, which binds together the two parties in blood relations and thus helps in eradicating ill will and feelings of enmity."

http://www.afghanland.com/culture/pashtunwali.html

IMHO,The Canadian Forces has no reason to be penitent in this case nor have the forces involved committed murder, the offer is made from a misguided interpretation of the Pastunwali. Every resident of  the AOR knows the deal, you do not interfere or disobey a Coalition Forces convoy or road movement, it is broadcasted daily on the civilian radio/TV stations and the word is distributed by word of mouth in the outlying areas. Canadians have been operating in the region for several years and Coalition Forces  even longer.
 The fact that any agreement was offered at at is simply the goodwill of the CF, perhaps it may be long in coming but it is definitely not required in this case.
 



 

Greymatters

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ArmyVern said:
Yes indeed, that western democratic system and way of doing business is such a wonderful difference. I'll take it ... any day!  ;) 

That is so true.  I never let anyone get away with saying we are a bad country to live in - they usually have no frgiggin idea how horrible it is in other parts of the world and should count their lucky stars they are lucky enough to live here...

 

armyvern

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MG34 said:
The fact that any agreement was offered at at is simply the goodwill of the CF, perhaps it may be long in coming but it is definitely not required in this case.

Fully agree. Hearts & Minds. Mission. It's all about the bigger picture.
 

gun runner

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I say 'Pays your money,takes your chances'. There is nothing stopping this rather distraught father from taking our condolence offering and in turn offering it to Timmie et al, and getting his pound of flesh. Ubique
 
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MG34

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gun runner said:
I say 'Pays your money,takes your chances'. There is nothing stopping this rather distraught father from taking our condolence offering and in turn offering it to Timmie et al, and getting his pound of flesh. Ubique

Then he will get a chance to visit his kids. When the payment is made it will make a good photo op for the Afghan news,winning of hearts and minds type stuff. If he goes over to theTimmies well then we get the chance to have his ass as well as his heart and mind, either way it is win win.
 

Bruce Monkhouse

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...and 'Timmy' has a lot more rich supporters in a certain "friendly" country that I would care about.
 

Jarnhamar

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I think it's important when it comes to winning their hearts and minds we realize the difference between winning them over to our side and just opening our pocket books and trying to 'pay more' than the Taliban.

The Taliban will pay hundreds of dollars just for joe blow to give them a call when a convoy passes by a certain area. COunt how many vehicles, what kind they are. Whatever.
We can't match that.
It's very important we make good on our promises and not make them [promises] and leave it for the next roto to made good on (Bosnia) but in doing so I think we need to make sure we don't just come across as a cash cow.
 

gun runner

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If there were only a better way to inform these regular people of the checkpoints in their areas, this would all be a moot discussion. How can we make these checkpoints a lot more safe for both our troops, and the general populace... that is a question that should be asked. I am not saying broadcast these locales for the whole region to know about, that is just leaving the coop open for the fox, but posting perimeter signage that could give a few hundred meters of notice to oncoming traffic of what lays ahead for them.Ubique
 

Snafu-Bar

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gun runner said:
If there were only a better way to inform these regular people of the checkpoints in their areas, this would all be a moot discussion. How can we make these checkpoints a lot more safe for both our troops, and the general populace... that is a question that should be asked. I am not saying broadcast these locales for the whole region to know about, that is just leaving the coop open for the fox, but posting perimeter signage that could give a few hundred meters of notice to oncoming traffic of what lays ahead for them.Ubique


Broadcasting through thier media in thier language that checkpoints and convoys are area's better avoided or what to do in the event you have no other choice but be near or in contact with them . Leaflets and posters and such are another. Other than that it's pretty much drastic measures.

Cheers.
 

Rodahn

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Snafu-Bar said:
Broadcasting through thier media in thier language that checkpoints and convoys are area's better avoided or what to do in the event you have no other choice but be near or in contact with them . Leaflets and posters and such are another. Other than that it's pretty much drastic measures.

Cheers.

I believe that leaflets and posters are distributed to the populace on what actions are to be taken when approaching an ISAF convoy. Announcing where check points are being set up prior to doing so would not IMO be prudent, as that is akin to telling the Taliban "Here we are come shoot at us".
 

gun runner

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Ok, SNAFU-BAR, so tell me would that be better than having non-combatants rushing at you? I for one would rather have the enemy show up looking for a fight,and finally be at the position of preparedness, than have the latter happen again and again. Wouldn't you? Ubique
 

1feral1

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gun runner said:
How can we make these checkpoints a lot more safe for both our troops, and the general populace...

IMHO from being on the ground, I would say education, mostly by word of mouth works. In Baghdad, everyone knew, those that failed to stop, well, were fired upon, for reasons of just plain stupidity mostly.

At the end of ther day, vehicles are so marked with signage ,and all know the rules, Its been years since Coaltion Forces have been on the ground in both theatres.

Why some won't listen, well thats taken to grave I guess by many.

Regards,

OWDU
 
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