LGBTQ Stuff (split from other political threads)

[Colin Parkinson]

Some of the LGBTQ Community are more strident and forceful in making their views known and this will cause discomfort to many, but this is a good thing. It will lead to more dialogue and hopefully understanding.

Cheers

Unfortunately the radicals are not open to discussions, and work hard at breaking cooperation on anything but their agenda. Just ask the police forces who bent over backwards to build links with the community and now are excluded from the Pride Parades.

 

[Brad Sallows]

NAMBLA apparently still exists. I suppose it'll have to do for those wondering about a "movement".

If there were a "slippery slope", with pure two-person heterosexual relationships at the top and anything-with-anyone at the bottom, everything would be on it somewhere. The "slippery slope" fallacy exists in claiming that A "must" lead to B, but that is not the same as people concerned that A "might" lead to B.

Attitudes to age of consent have varied across cultures and time. What has been acceptable before could be acceptable again, depending on advocacy and resistance. It is trivially obvious that some people are pushing inappropriately sexualized content to minors which sometimes is muddled - deliberately or not - with legitimate education, and that some blowback has resulted, and that the blowback is sometimes broader than it ought be.

 

[Kirkhill]

Unfortunately the radicals are not open to discussions, and work hard at breaking cooperation on anything but their agenda. Just ask the police forces who bent over backwards to build links with the community and now are excluded from the Pride Parades.

For some people, of all persuasions, their "agenda" is "breaking co-operation".

Anarchism | Definition, Varieties, History, & Artistic Expression

Anarchism, cluster of doctrines and attitudes centered on the belief that government is both harmful and unnecessary. The term is derived from the Greek anarchos, meaning ‘without authority.’ Anarchist thought developed in the West and spread throughout the world, principally in the early 20th...

www.britannica.com

Pierre-Joseph Proudhon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sacco and Vanzetti - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Kirkhill]

NAMBLA apparently still exists. I suppose it'll have to do for those wondering about a "movement".

If there were a "slippery slope", with pure two-person heterosexual relationships at the top and anything-with-anyone at the bottom, everything would be on it somewhere. The "slippery slope" fallacy exists in claiming that A "must" lead to B, but that is not the same as people concerned that A "might" lead to B.

Attitudes to age of consent have varied across cultures and time. What has been acceptable before could be acceptable again, depending on advocacy and resistance. It is trivially obvious that some people are pushing inappropriately sexualized content to minors which sometimes is muddled - deliberately or not - with legitimate education, and that some blowback has resulted, and that the blowback is sometimes broader than it ought be.

Gretna Green is a parish in the southern council area of Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland, on the Scottish side of the border between Scotland and England,

Gretna's "runaway marriages" began in 1754 when Lord Hardwicke's Marriage Act came into force in England. Under the Act, if a parent of a person under the age of 21 objected to the minor's marriage, the parent could legally veto the union. The Act tightened the requirements for marrying in England and Wales but did not apply in Scotland, where it was possible for boys to marry at 14 and girls at 12 with or without parental consent (see Marriage in Scotland). It was, however, only in the 1770s, with the construction of a toll road passing through the hitherto obscure village of Graitney, that Gretna Green became the first easily reachable village over the Scottish border.[2]

Scottish law allowed for "irregular marriages", meaning that if a declaration was made before two witnesses, almost anybody had the authority to conduct the marriage ceremony. The blacksmiths in Gretna became known as "anvil priests", culminating with Richard Rennison, who performed 5,147 ceremonies. The local blacksmith and his anvil became lasting symbols of Gretna Green weddings.

Marriage Between First Cousins​

In the past, some provinces, such as Alberta and Ontario, had similar legislation against marriage between first cousins, but the laws were eventually repealed. As a result, no blood test is required to prove the partners are related.

In Canada, marriage between two cousins is legal. Also, it is only illegal if they are not directly related by blood. As per Canadian laws, if children in a marriage are under 18 years old and have been lawfully adopted by their parents, marriage between cousins is prohibited but not illegal.

There is not a lot in this world that is immutable.

 

[mariomike]

Marriage Between First Cousins ( above )

Sounds like Irish dating game.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I can see a split coming in the future;

LGB -- 2STQIA+.
There seems to be a growing number of people from the gay and lesbian community disassociating with Pride too.

 

[Brad Sallows]

I see the split between people who just want to live a life (who may involve themselves if basic human rights and civil decency are at stake), and those for whose life is politics and activism grounded in sexuality.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

I see the split between people who just want to live a life (who may involve themselves if basic human rights and civil decency are at stake), and those for whose life is politics and activism grounded in sexuality insert cause here_.

FTFY. There are folks in any cause that actually want to see their lives and the lives of others get better and those that just want to keep things on fire for their own gain. Left or Right wing applies.

Often times, the latter have far more to lose when things level off... mainly clout, influence, and income.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Also, the NP gives a preview of some of the motions to be brought forward at the convention.

Conservative convention to join culture wars with debates on trans issues, vaccines and diversity training

Conservative leader Pierre Poilievre may be hyper-focused on cost of living and housing but delegates have other priorities in mind.

nationalpost.com

One can also peruse the full suite of policy proposals and motions that have been made public here:

https://cpcassets.conservative.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/25121334/1a7e47096845523.pdf

There was some hub bub this past weekend on social media about PP mentioning he believes in parental rights WRT gender identity and different arising social concerns.

I may be phrasing that wrong but its in the ballpark.

I tended to agree with his POV.

 

[Lumber]

There was some hub bub this past weekend on social media about PP mentioning he believes in parental rights WRT gender identity and different arising social concerns.

I may be phrasing that wrong but its in the ballpark.

I tended to agree with his POV.

For the most part, in many situations, I wholeheartedly believe in the primacy of parents in raising their children.

However, I know some very very stupid people. I also know some very very ignorant people.

And between those people and the government, I honestly believe that the government knows what's better for their children (in some instances).

For example, I agree that gender affirming procedures/treatments should be entirely up to parents (up to a certain age). However, a child genuinely suffering from gender dysphoria should at least be allowed to act, dress, and be addressed in the gender in which they identify. Unfortunately, if you have a bigoted parents who doesn't believe gender dysphoria is real, you're going to have a very sad childhood, and it's because of those cases that I think, for example, teachers should be allowed to disregard the will of the parents and call the kids by the names and pronouns they prefer.

 

[Quirky]

However, I know some very very stupid people. I also know some very very ignorant people.

And between those people and the government, I honestly believe that the government knows what's better for their children (in some instances).

That doesn't matter. Unless we enact some sort of prerequisite or license to having children - financial and educational, the buck stops with the parents. I don't want kids raised by government. Stay out of the bedroom and stay out of raising kids. Period.

This whole gender "issue" is a complete joke considering how an insignificantly small portion of the population suffers from this mental disorder. It's only an issue now because schools are brainwashed into pushing kids for different genders than they were born with. Leave the kids alone and they'll grow out of it.

 

[QV]

That doesn't matter. Unless we enact some sort of prerequisite or license to having children - financial and educational, the buck stops with the parents. I don't want kids raised by government. Stay out of the bedroom and stay out of raising kids. Period.

This whole gender "issue" is a complete joke considering how an insignificantly small portion of the population suffers from this mental disorder. It's only an issue now because schools are brainwashed into pushing kids for different genders than they were born with. Leave the kids alone and they'll grow out of it.

There are enough examples of transitioned kids who are full on regretting now as young adults to demonstrate this whole subject has been handled terribly and tragically.

 

[Halifax Tar]

For the most part, in many situations, I wholeheartedly believe in the primacy of parents in raising their children.

However, I know some very very stupid people. I also know some very very ignorant people.

And between those people and the government, I honestly believe that the government knows what's better for their children (in some instances).

For example, I agree that gender affirming procedures/treatments should be entirely up to parents (up to a certain age). However, a child genuinely suffering from gender dysphoria should at least be allowed to act, dress, and be addressed in the gender in which they identify. Unfortunately, if you have a bigoted parents who doesn't believe gender dysphoria is real, you're going to have a very sad childhood, and it's because of those cases that I think, for example, teachers should be allowed to disregard the will of the parents and call the kids by the names and pronouns they prefer.

There is no doubt bad parents exist. That's a fact. And we have means to help and deal with them.

Having said that gender transition instances have been seen to happen in clusters which can be sign of a social contagion like eating disorders can be as well, especially in young women. Which tells me we need to make sure this is real, as the instances of it being done and then de-transitioning are heartbreaking and I cant imagine that mental anguish. I have deep empathy for anyone who is going through these.

I think the actual act of removing, adjusting or adding appendages to ones self should only be done by ones self and after the age of majority. Same with changing names. That's the prerogative of the parents until the person is age of majority. Obviously signs of abuse still need to dealt with.

If a person feels strongly enough that they are in the wrong body or were assigned the wrong gender at birth, they can wait until they are 18 or above to make that change, unless they have parental consent.

 

[Remius]

There is no doubt bad parents exist. That's a fact. And we have means to help and deal with them.

Having said that gender transition instances have been seen to happen in clusters which can be sign of a social contagion like eating disorders can be as well, especially in young women. Which tells me we need to make sure this is real, as the instances of it being done and then de-transitioning are heartbreaking and I cant imagine that mental anguish. I have deep empathy for anyone who is going through these.

This where I feel most of us are sorely under qualified to make any real determination one way or another. I only know what I think I know via friends whose children underwent the change. I’d be curious to see the numbers on how many de-transition and more importantly why. Some light reading on the subject makes the case that de transitioning is not always a case of regret but the social reaction/stigma etc they face after the fact.

I think the actual act of removing, adjusting or adding appendages to ones self should only be done by ones self and after the age of majority. Same with changing names. That's the prerogative of the parents until the person is age of majority. Obviously signs of abuse still need to dealt with.

I lean towards that myself. Not because it’s a parental right per say and what not but I feel that there isn’t enough data and or enough long term studies to know the actual effects. Beneficial or not.

If a person feels strongly enough that they are in the wrong body or were assigned the wrong gender at birth, they can wait until they are 18 or above to make that change, unless they have parental consent.

One of the things that challenges that, is that the later one waits for that change the worse the outcome. I’m not using that as argument for or against, just what some of the research points to as a reason supporting early reassignment.

 

[Halifax Tar]

This where I feel most of us are sorely under qualified to make any real determination one way or another. I only know what I think I know via friends whose children underwent the change. I’d be curious to see the numbers on how many de-transition and more importantly why. Some light reading on the subject makes the case that de transitioning is not always a case of regret but the social reaction/stigma etc they face after the fact.

I lean towards that myself. Not because it’s a parental right per say and what not but I feel that there isn’t enough data and or enough long term studies to know the actual effects. Beneficial or not.

One of the things that challenges that, is that the later one waits for that change the worse the outcome. I’m not using that as argument for or against, just what some of the research points to as a reason supporting early reassignment.

This is such a difficult topic. Both sides are highly politicized and I honestly have trouble believing either side when it comes to "facts and figures".

Hence why I believe until 18 it should left to parental consent and after that an adult should be allowed to make these decisions on their own.

 

[Lumber]

If a person feels strongly enough that they are in the wrong body or were assigned the wrong gender at birth, they can wait until they are 18 or above to make that change, unless they have parental consent.

I agree whole or partly with everything you said except this last part.

Yes, it is true that those who transition have several mental health comorbidities including depressive disorder (70%), anxiety (63%), post-traumatic stress disorder (33%), attention deficit disorder (24%), autism spectrum condition (20%), eating disorder (19%), and personality disorder (17%)(1), that later once resolved cause them to de-transition.

However, I'm not talking about people transitioning medically, I'm just talking about outward appearance and forms of address. If doings these things helps manage some of those above mentioned mental health issues, than what really is the harm? If your child's psychiatrist came to you and said "your 15 year old is at an extreme risk of committing suicide, and I believe allowing them to identify as the gender of their choice will help reduce that possibility", are you going to say "no"?

 

[Lumber]

If a person feels strongly enough that they are in the wrong body or were assigned the wrong gender at birth, they can wait until they are 18 or above to make that change, unless they have parental consent.

I agree whole or partly with everything you said except this last part.

Yes, it is true that those who transition have several mental health comorbidities including depressive disorder (70%), anxiety (63%), post-traumatic stress disorder (33%), attention deficit disorder (24%), autism spectrum condition (20%), eating disorder (19%), and personality disorder (17%)(1), that later once resolved cause them to de-transition.

However, I'm not talking about people transitioning medically, I'm just talking about outward appearance and forms of address. If doings these things helps manage some of those above mentioned mental health issues, than what really is the harm? If your child's psychiatrist came to you and said "your 15 year old is at an extreme risk of committing suicide, and I believe allowing them to identify as the gender of their choice will help reduce that possibility", are you going to say "no"?

And if you heard from your own kids that a friend of theirs's at school committed suicide because that kid's parents wouldn't let them be called by their prefered name and dress the way they wanted, would you think "Well, their parents know best. I guess suicide was for the best".?

 

[Halifax Tar]

I agree whole or partly with everything you said except this last part.

Yes, it is true that those who transition have several mental health comorbidities including depressive disorder (70%), anxiety (63%), post-traumatic stress disorder (33%), attention deficit disorder (24%), autism spectrum condition (20%), eating disorder (19%), and personality disorder (17%)(1), that later once resolved cause them to de-transition.

However, I'm not talking about people transitioning medically, I'm just talking about outward appearance and forms of address. If doings these things helps manage some of those above mentioned mental health issues, than what really is the harm? If your child's psychiatrist came to you and said "your 15 year old is at an extreme risk of committing suicide, and I believe allowing them to identify as the gender of their choice will help reduce that possibility", are you going to say "no"?

And if you heard from your own kids that a friend of theirs's at school committed suicide because that kid's parents wouldn't let them be called by their prefered name and dress the way they wanted, would you think "Well, their parents know best. I guess suicide was for the best".?

We are in agreement. If a psychiatrist tells you your child is at risk of suicide and you don't take positive action that's a form of abuse, and that should be addressed. Parents are responsible for their kids life.

I was talking more the medical and surgical side.

 

[Good2Golf]

Good points raised by many. Adding my thoughts, informed through knowing a number of transitioned people and hearing/appreciating their stories - while there are some stories that note the frustrations, and in some cases significant mental trauma, that can accompany gender dysphoria/gender transitioning, in a number of those cases with less than full family support, I am also loathe to see a wholesale transfer of policy and legal authority surrendered in its entirety to government control. Heck, the government won’t even take a legal stance (neither permissive nor restrictive) on abortion, yet many feel there is no issue with having government become far more involved in gender transitional legislation…particularly to such activity prior to the legal age of consent. That’s a stretch, IMO.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Good points raised by many. Adding my thoughts, informed through knowing a number of transitioned people and hearing/appreciating their stories - while there are some stories that note the frustrations, and in some cases significant mental trauma, that can accompany gender dysphoria/gender transitioning, in a number of those cases with less than full family support, I am also loathe to see a wholesale transfer of policy and legal authority surrendered in its entirety to government control. Heck, the government won’t even take a legal stance (neither permissive nor restrictive) on abortion, yet many feel there is no issue with having government become far more involved in gender transitional legislation…particularly to such activity prior to the legal age of consent. That’s a stretch, IMO.

I found it puzzling that a 30+ year old female friend of mine was denied having her tubes tied as "she might change her mind" yet some are super eager to let kids make life altering decisions before they are even allowed to buy a beer or drive a car.

And I think removing parents from the equation will lead to rash decisions being made that could/should have been avoided.