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All Things AB Separatism (split fm Liberal Minority Government 2025 - ???)

You're right the logical thing to do instead of bringing forward meaningful, incremental changes with a far more sympathetic PM and to actually engage provincial neighbours is to go full nuclear and to become a landlocked hermit republic propped up by a diminishing resources or to become a state with even less representation in a democratically backsliding republic and losing Florida or New York levels of influence in favour of Kansas levels of influence. Good drills.

The history of the GoC/Alberta relationship has demonstrated there will be no change that benefits Alberta (and Canada). Meaningful change would require constitutional change, which won't happen. I suspect Albertans are coming to terms with that and are going to explore better options including going "full nuclear".

But why would the rest of Canada care if it's just a backwards unsophisticated redneck territory with little to offer except diminishing dirty tar sands that everyone detests? Seems like Canada has a great opportunity to shed this embarrassing burden to it's net zero future. I'm certain there is a deal to be made here where everyone is happy.
 
to become a landlocked hermit republic

This is assuming other provinces don't want to become part of this republic.

I envision a rich Saudi Arabia type New Western Canada country, without the shackles of the have-not eastern provinces and beheadings of Islam. A pipe dream that won't materialize in my life time however.
 
Imagine if Canada was trying to recruit another state into confederation and the deal was:

  • we'll give you less representation in the senate than provinces a quarter your size
  • we'll take revenue from you in taxes and re-distribute some of it to other provinces
  • we'll do everything we can to limit your ability to export product from your major industry while we import same from elsewhere
  • we'll mock and disparage your culture as something less than other provinces or regions

Sound like a deal? Or do you think there might be better options?
Valid points, although at first blush I thought you were describing the discussions between US and Canada
 
Equalization payments don’t ’come from’ provinces; it’s not a standalone system of raising money. It’s simply funded out of consolidated federal revenue.
Equalization payments come from federal government general revenues, which are paid by individuals (mostly income and sales taxes) and corporations (mostly income tax) and other fees.

These are distinctions without a difference. To pretend otherwise is to deliberately be obtuse because it suits a partisan agenda.

Income taxes and consumption taxes that are tied directly to the economic productivity of a province made up 89%+ of federal government revenues in the 2024 fiscal year. The tax base for all those things is ultimately the individuals who pay these taxes, whether through personal income taxes, as shareholders paying corporate taxes, or as personal consumers, or as shareholders of a corporation that is paying these taxes as a consumer.

There is a finite amount of these individuals and they have a finite amount of wealth that can be taxed.

The federal government creates a program where it gives a boatload of cash to certain provinces, it is the individuals in the provinces that receive nothing that are funding that and it limits the tax base that the province has to work with. It's a distinction without a difference from just telling provinces to raise the revenue themselves and pay a cheque to the Federal government.

Do people ever talk about how defence spending or health care spending or any other kind of federal spending "come from Alberta"?

Yes.

The arguments made about Alberta contributions to CPP specifically are because Alberta has had proportionately more people reaching the Yearly Maximum Pensionable Income and making full CPP contributions for the year- but that hits a cap, it doesn’t scale up indefinitely with income. More broadly it gets conflated with the higher average income and consequently the higher income taxes paid by Albertans because the population is younger and earning more money. But there’s no standalone levy on Alberta or Albertans for equalization.

There's no provincial "fair share".

Individuals pay income taxes and CPP premiums. Alberta skews young and high income, which makes its total contributions look high for the number of people. There is no practical way of distributing incomes throughout Canada so that the per capita average contribution per taxpayer is the same for all provinces, so this situation is always going to exist for one or more provinces.

When it comes to pensions they are tied to individual contributions. It's fairly easy to figure out exactly how much of the pension assets / present value are attributable to individuals and therefore people in each province.

For this reason, I think the CPP argument is a bunch of noise. If Alberta were to leave the CPP and create its own, and all the adults agreed to give Alberta it's "share," it should theoretically have a neutral effect.

But showing how much of the FMV of the assets in the fund are attributable to Alberta individuals does have some political value in it by showing just how much on a per capita basis Alberta contributes to Federal programs in general.

You're right the logical thing to do instead of bringing forward meaningful, incremental changes with a far more sympathetic PM and to actually engage provincial neighbours is to go full nuclear and to become a landlocked hermit republic propped up by a diminishing resources or to become a state with even less representation in a democratically backsliding republic and losing Florida or New York levels of influence in favour of Kansas levels of influence. Good drills.

Even if Carney is "more sympathetic," he's still beholden to the Canadian voters who elected him - which are primarily from provinces that don't benefit from Alberta getting a fair shake. That means Alberta needs those voters to change their mind, not just Carney. That will require a lot of tree-shaking. Right now is an opportune moment to shake that tree - Canadians, in the face of Trump, are more prepared to make changes that would not only benefit Canadians but that Alberta would benefit from, changes that Canadians were mostly tone deaf too (i.e. interprovincial trade barriers). Even the Bloc are now prepared to discuss pipelines.

The sad part is, the CPC and Liberals don't need the Bloc to make these changes, but they have to put their spears away and work together and stop worrying about who gets the credit.
 
This is assuming other provinces don't want to become part of this republic.

I envision a rich Saudi Arabia type New Western Canada country, without the shackles of the have-not eastern provinces and beheadings of Islam. A pipe dream that won't materialize in my life time however.
What the fuck are you talking about lmao?
 
Smith is trying to have her cake and eat it too. If she really were a federalist like she protests, then she wouldn’t make it easier for seppies to get a referendum; she would leave the law alone. She’s been winking and nodding to seppies for a very long time. She isn’t very subtle about it.

Good luck when business flees the province like they fled Quebec. Pro-tip: business likes stability.
 
Watching the rest of Canada get pissy about Smiths moves is really funny, and wildly hypocritical. Canada hates Alberta yet they get mad when Alberta threatens to leave, it's like a toxic relationship with a crazy girlfriend.
 
Rabid anti-Alberta, Net-Zero Libs Jen Gerson and John Ivison weigh in.


When everybody is driving themselves to work using Flintstones cars because Canada abandoned development of it's natural resources, despite being a natural resource economy, maybe they'll finally wake up.

You can't have a population of 41 million, plan to import 1.4 million per year, and still somehow be 'net zero' for carbon...

(Especially in a province with a strong agricultural sector to boot)
 
When everybody is driving themselves to work using Flintstones cars because Canada abandoned development of it's natural resources, despite being a natural resource economy, maybe they'll finally wake up.

You can't have a population of 41 million, plan to import 1.4 million per year, and still somehow be 'net zero' for carbon...

(Especially in a province with a strong agricultural sector to boot)
Did you read the articles or just my sarcastic introduction?
 
Did you read the articles or just my sarcastic introduction?
The first comment on the Ivison article is very telling. It's hard to answer dreams of milk and honey with pragmatism.

Kenney's right that "they" are "winning" the argument against the ecozealots- the tide has turned against racing to shutdown the O&G industry like its shameful. But that will not be enough for some.
 
I've often thought on the differences in culture between Ontario and the west. Speaking of the context of family in southern Ontario and then living in mostly rural northern Alberta.

1. Size of the country. For rural, especially western Canadians, a couple of hour drive for something like Costco shopping is almost normal. You have a better appreciation of the size of the country when you're thinking of a trip and debating a 5 hour or 8 hour drive to the nearest international airport. For my urban relations crossing Toronto is viewed as a full day trip and only undertaken in a state of emergency (although 401 traffic is hell for anyone).

2. Role of government and especially government response. It's a standing joke in every first aid course I've taken over "here's what the book says about response times" when everyone in the room is hoping for a 1 hour response time best case. Urban center...10 minutes and people panic. The reliance on government infrastructure is different but also changes some of the personal accountability to improve ones position.

3. Background of neighborhood. Almost everyone I deal with locally is from another part of the province or country. Local residents are only about 25% of the population with many having moved in/inter married due to resource work and/or opportunities that didn't' exist elsewhere. And for almost all of the "new blood" in the region it's not the first stop as many have lived in multiple communities spread around the country previously due to opportunities and work. Labour is a commodity and it flows with opportunity.

Now to compare that to some urban relations they struggle to comprehend the concept of moving away from the city because "why would you leave" and for many, work jobs that I frankly don't know they stay afloat from. But offer them a job with 50% more pay on the other side of the country and they think you've asked them to go to mars.

Until fairly recently it was common to be able to play the "spot the out of province license plate game" around town and see how many provinces you could see on a lunch break. Tried explaining that to relations out east when visiting there and they didn't know what the plates even looked like for half the country. On the reciprocal side of things they knew how many different nationalities of international backgrounds which for my sheltered rural youth was totally foreign.

4. Proximity of the US and it's influence. For many of the relations a cross border trip is "normal" ....for some it's as normal as driving home and noticing milk is on sale in the US so I'll grab some on the way home. Comments like "why fly out of Toronto we'll drive to Detroit and fly for 1/3rd the cost...don't you do that?" or "we'll drive to Florida...are you coming" are a huge disconnect from what I've experienced. For myself...8 hours gets me almost the border of Montana...so big cities and cross border shopping just don't exist as options.

5. Costs and competition. Your local milage may vary but topics like travel (I pay for the flight before taxes what they pay for the entire package), cell phones (only Telus really works here so no options on plans), groceries (no US competition for sales/local fruit orchards) or power costs (yes aware some of this is AB gov't policy but not much cheap hydro or nuclear options out west).

6. Government jobs. It's a perception and might be true but at least out west government jobs were very limited. Local municipality...some provincial jobs in larger towns...and it wasn't until you hit the major cities you saw any real federal jobs outside the RCMP. Aware the CAF has a strong presence in Alberta but it's localized in areas I didn't grow up in.

Now for family...most of whom live within 1 hour of a major center...it seems much more common to have a higher employment via federal jobs and/or provincial jobs. I get the Ontario gov't jobs are centered in the south and much of the AB/ON split being described here also applies to NW Ontario with rural areas differing widely from Toronto/Ottawa.

7. Oil vs. Automobiles. Many of the relations are involved in the auto industry and they struggle to see how dominate oil and gas is out west. Like the assembly plants both were sectors were working people could earn good wages, with minimal schooling, and raise families. But while they can acknowledge that part they struggle with the concept of the constant Gov't bailouts for Auto being a good thing (its jobs so of course the gov't should do it) vs. policy for the west (it's nature so of course you shouldn't develop it). I'll be the first to say Alberta has done some piss poor work on the environmental side (like BC and ON with mining as well) but there are few success stories to show vs. the constant images of the mountain parks as "pristine" that people think the whole province is like.

Anyways....some ramblings pre-coffee thinking about differences between portions of the country. My Quebec, Maritime and BC experiences are much more limited but it's always been an interesting experience traveling around the Country and seeing both how similar, and different, the regions are.

foresterab

Regardless of your individual experiences it's
I agree with much of what you are saying but it more of an urban-rural divide than an east-west one. In provinces the size of Ontario and Quebec (and perhaps BC due to the topography), 'rural' can be further divided into 'near rural' and remote. There is a lot of rural southern Ontario that is not reasonably proximate to the US for travel or cross-border shopping, and where a trip to a community that has a Costco, Walmart or, more crucially, a reasonably-sized health centre is at least an hour. Once you get north, the numbers get larger. When I was living on northwestern Ontario and wanted to visit family in Toronto, it was 20 hours and 2 time zones. when I transferred to around Lake Superior, it was only eight hours. Yippee.

Watching the rest of Canada get pissy about Smiths moves is really funny, and wildly hypocritical. Canada hates Alberta yet they get mad when Alberta threatens to leave, it's like a toxic relationship with a crazy girlfriend.
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Rath and his fellow separatists depicted an independent Alberta with no regulations from Ottawa or eastern Canadian interests, lower provincial taxes plus no federal taxes.

They suggested oil and gas development would double within five years, multiple new pipelines would extend into the United States, and residents of a breakaway Alberta republic would still keep their Canadian passports and Canada Pension Plan entitlements.

These aren't fiscal conservatives- they're either financially illiterate, or self interested wankers that want to knowingly put future Albertans onto an even faster crash course with Provincial insolvency.
 
Ah yes - we want out but we want all the benefits. Entitled, spoiled children that not only want to take their ball and leave, they also want the some lunch money from the other kids.
 
Ah yes - we want out but we want all the benefits. Entitled, spoiled children that not only want to take their ball and leave, they also want the some lunch money from the other kids.
Eh- individuals pay into CPP, not provinces. Having individuals grandfather themselves out makes some sense- just like someone that moves but carries their accrued entitlement with them.

What got my eyes rolling is the cartoonish plan of
-> take on none of the financial burdens of nationhood
-> further lower traditional tax revenues
-> further increase complete dependency on O&G royalties to maintain budget
-> ignore ALL of - global headwind against O&G, US isolationism, recent OPEC aggression- stonks go up!
-> cast off Canadian Safety yet
-> Profit

I could buy the legitimacy of the movement if the "after" case they were trying to convince people with was grounded in pragmatic reality, but this.. just promise everyone their choice of a unicorn or fully functional replica Sherman tank and be done with it.
 
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Eh- individuals pay into CPP, not provinces. Having individuals grandfather themselves out makes some sense.

What got my eye's rolling is the cartoonish plan of
-> take on none of the financial burdens of nationhood
-> further lower traditional tax revenues
-> further increase complete dependency on O&G royalties to maintain budget
-> ignore ALL of - global headwind against O&G, US isolationism, recent OPEC aggression- stonks go up!
-> cast off Canadian Safety yet
-> Profit
Individuals can receive a one time payout of their contributions or individuals can have their pensions transferred to AB. If they want to leave, leave.
 
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