Liberal Minority Government 2025 - ???

[QV]

Not popular opinion, but I have quibbles with the speech.



Until two minutes ago, this is how we were talking about the PRC.

Contradicted by:


Contradicted by:


The PRC is an ally of Russia, supplying Vlad with essential materials and funding to carry out his atrocities.

This sounds good:


But this is exactly what we did with the other hegemony, the PRC. We negotiated bilaterally from a position of weakness with a hegemon.

It would have been a great speech. But when he talks about the hegemons and switch the US for the PRC in your mind, we’re not living up to the ideals of the speech. He’s really talking about just one country.

Which makes Brad's post #4386 in the 2% thread relevant to this thread.

Excerpt: "What I see happening broadly is that Trump's fat fingered china shop bull behaviour has motivated "crisis == opportunity" agendas. People who favour more engagement with China, or Europe, or closer integration within Europe, or revitalized globalisation/internationalisation under modified terms, or just generally have always hated the US, are shilling hard for their respective aims. The only thing they share in common is a remarkable desire to throw much of the Canada-US relationship as fast as they can. It will be a challenge to repair some of the damage; they want to make the damage unrepairable."

 

[PrairieFella]

At what cost though?

We should be trying to find other markets outside the hegemonies. As Carney said, the middle powers need to come together. I just wish he was living up to those ideals.

At the cost of 49,000 cars? To keep farms and thus our national food security viable, thats a deal. Im a realist. China is here to stay. We can continue to try and contain them or we can recognize that trade is probably inevitable while theyre a superpower for the next 60 years or so before their complete demographic collapse. Lets make some money off them for a change. We dont have to like their ideals. We dont have to like their governmental system. But we can still trade with them. There's only one nuclear superpower threatening our national integrity and it aint China at the moment.

 

[RangerRay]

Terry Glavin is also uncomfortable.

You shall hear rumours of war. . .

The American president is crazy. Canada's prime minister is cowardly. Welcome to the "principled and pragmatic" recrudescence of "responsible conviction" at Davos.

therealstory.substack.com

Carney’s contribution this week in Davos: “Great powers can afford to go it alone. They have the market size, the military capacity, the leverage to dictate terms. Middle powers do not. But when we only negotiate bilaterally with a hegemon, we negotiate from weakness. We accept what is offered. We compete with each other to be the most accommodating. This is not sovereignty. It is the performance of sovereignty while accepting subordination.”
By Prime Minister Carney’s own standards, then, the bilateral “strategic partnership” he cemented with Xi Jinping’s China last week was negotiated from weakness. We accepted what Beijing offered, we’re competing with other middle powers to be the most accommodating, and Carney’s pantomime in Beijing was merely the performance of sovereignty and the acceptance of subordination.
The “narrative” is pretty well embedded now, though, that the American Republicans are reaping MAGA’s whirlwind, and a trusted American ally has abruptly shifted away from the United States to a more reliable partner in China. As I’m not going to stop pointing out, I realize that there’s great satisfaction to be found among liberal Americans in saying to their Trumpist adversaries: Now look what you’ve gone and done. But it’s bullshit.
As Real Story subscribers will understand, the Liberals returned to their customary kowtowing habit of serving as an accomplice in Xi Jinping’s global domination strategy nearly a year and a half before Trump was even re-elected.

A simple way of understanding where we’re at: Mark Carney’s so-called “principled and pragmatic” foreign policy is a return to the “responsible conviction” mumbo jumbo of his predecessor Justin Trudeau’s first foreign affairs minister, the hapless lapdog Stephane Dion.
Before Chrystia Freeland put her foot down and warned in more or less these words, either he goes or I go, Dion was Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov’s best friend among the G7’s foreign ministers. Dion wanted Canada to lift all sanctions on Russia. He proposed to restore diplomatic ties with Khomeinist Iran and re-open the mullahs’ spy nest of an embassy in Ottawa. Dion wanted the Liberals to break their campaign promise to enact a regime of Magnitsky sanctions against gangster-state kleptocrats. He was around long enough to oversee the abolition of the Office of Religious Freedom.

 

[Brad Sallows]

There's only one nuclear superpower threatening our national integrity and it aint China at the moment.

How soon unwanted foreign election influence and various other hostile behaviours disappeared down the memory hole.

 

[Czech_pivo]

At the cost of 49,000 cars? To keep farms and thus our national food security viable, thats a deal. Im a realist. China is here to stay. We can continue to try and contain them or we can recognize that trade is probably inevitable while theyre a superpower for the next 60 years or so before their complete demographic collapse. Lets make some money off them for a change. We dont have to like their ideals. We dont have to like their governmental system. But we can still trade with them. There's only one nuclear superpower threatening our national integrity and it aint China at the moment.

I seem to remember someone on here talking about how we (the RCN) had to buy vacuum tubes off Czechoslovakia during the height of the Cold War because they were the only ones that produced what we needed. Not really much different. They, 'the sworn enemy' sold a product that we needed, thus we did a deal with them. In that case it was to keep our warships functioning in order to possibly go to war against them. Now we are buying products (consumer overwhelmingly, but how much Chinese steel went into the AOPS's?) from 'a different sworn enemy' once again.

 

[PrairieFella]

How soon unwanted foreign election influence and various other hostile behaviours disappeared down the memory hole.

Frankly, spare us the sanctimony. We can say the same thing about the Americans. Yet you want even further integration with them. They're directly involved with an attempt to raise a separatist movement in Canada for Pete's sake.

 

[QV]

How soon unwanted foreign election influence and various other hostile behaviours disappeared down the memory hole.

By design.

 

[QV]

Frankly, spare us the sanctimony. We can say the same thing about the Americans. Yet you want even further integration with them. They're directly involved with an attempt to raise a separatist movement in Canada for Pete's sake.

Notable differences exist between the CCP China and the USA. It's amusing to watch which side Canadian liberal types side with.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Frankly, spare us the sanctimony. We can say the same thing about the Americans. Yet you want even further integration with them. They're directly involved with an attempt to raise a separatist movement in Canada for Pete's sake.

I wrote that I could as easily live in the US as Canada (or some other places like Germany, Britain, France, etc), which is not the same thing as wanting further integration with them or wanting to move to any of those places right now. I do want people to put more energy into preserving the integration we already have rather than crying "all is lost" and putting energy into burning it all down as fast as they can because they got butt-hurt over something insulting Trump said about Canada, or because they're sinophiles or pro-EU or have some other agenda.

Raising the spectre of provoking separatism in Canada and wondering who might want to separate or worse isn't a path with only one pitfall. "Vive le Quebec libre!" is part of our history, too.

We shouldn't be dealing with China to any greater extent than we deal with Russia. They are predatory states. "Russia out of Ukraine. China out of Tibet." Trump's US is a predatory state; but there is all the difference in the world with the qualifier "Trump's", and the magnitude simply isn't the same. We obviously shouldn't be simultaneously dealing with China because it has bullied us into compliance and then standing up on our hind legs to bark about not being bullied into compliance.

 

[PrairieFella]

Notable differences exist between the CCP China and the USA. It's amusing to watch which side Canadian liberal types side with.

I side with Canada and what is in its best interest. If that means trade deals with less than savoury countries to diversify us away from a predatory superpower looking to break our economy, thats the way the cookie crumbles. Thats the side this classical liberal is on; like thats an insult or something. Oh no, more free trade and more market competition for a country that succeeded the most as global free traders.

I do find it odd though that you seem to care far more about the USA than Canada in all these discussions.

 

[QV]

I side with Canada and what is in its best interest. If that means trade deals with less than savoury countries to diversify us away from a predatory superpower looking to break our economy, thats the way the cookie crumbles. Thats the side this classical liberal is on; like thats an insult or something. Oh no, more free trade and more market competition for a country that succeeded the most as global free traders.

I do find it odd though that you seem to care far more about the USA than Canada in all these discussions.

And China is a predatory superpower. It's allies include Russia and Iran. Have you paid any attention at all to what China is involved in when it comes to every other country's industries? There is plenty of open source information on this subject. Trade is fine, but it needs to be done cautiously.

A strong US means a strong Canada. Trump is temporary, but America will always be America. There were lots of things done under Obama's charismatic leadership that are also done under Trump, but those are only problems now.

 

[PrairieFella]

And China is a predatory superpower. It's allies include Russia and Iran. Have you paid any attention at all to what China is involved in when it comes to every other country's industries? There is plenty of open source information on this subject. Trade is fine, but it needs to be done cautiously.

A strong US means a strong Canada. Trump is temporary, but America will always be America. There were lots of things done under Obama's charismatic leadership that are also done under Trump, but those are only problems now.

This current change in the US is never going away. The seeds of ethno and religious nationalism planted by the Heritage Foundation and other conservative groups have bloomed eith at least a third of America. The Bretton Woods era is over. Youre stuck in an era thats over.

Roma Caput Mundi vibes from your America will always be America line.

 

[Altair]

This current change in the US is never going away. The seeds of ethno and religious nationalism planted by the Heritage Foundation and other conservative groups have bloomed eith at least a third of America. The Bretton Woods era is over. Youre stuck in an era thats over.

Roma Caput Mundi vibes from your America will always be America line.

Some people think that if the US changes parties it's somehow going to change or be forgiven.

No.

We are always one election cycle away from this nonsense. The bipartisan consensus in the USA is dead.

Democrats may come into power and talk a good game on free trade and international cooperation, MAGA will be there 4 years later ripping up CUSMA, leaving NATO, and wanting to bomb Panama.

No sane country can deal with the USA if they swing from one extreme to the next every 4 years.

Just treat them as if the face the Democrats put on is a mask. Because it is. MAGA is still there, waiting for their turn to once again throw the world into chaos.

 

[QV]

Some people think that if the US changes parties it's somehow going to change or be forgiven.

No.

We are always one election cycle away from this nonsense. The bipartisan consensus in the USA is dead.

Democrats may come into power and talk a good game on free trade and international cooperation, MAGA will be there 4 years later ripping up CUSMA, leaving NATO, and wanting to bomb Panama.

No sane country can deal with the USA if they swing from one extreme to the next every 4 years.

Just treat them as if the face the Democrats put on is a mask. Because it is. MAGA is still there, waiting for their turn to once again throw the world into chaos.

Now do China.

 

[Altair]

Now do China.

Subversive, genocidal, expansionist but unlike the USA, who are also these things minus the genocidal, able to actually get a trade deal done with.