Liberal (Minority/Majority) Government 2025 - ???

[Deleted member 175000]

Re: Gripens

It's pretty clear to anyone paying attention that the Saab engagement is about a whole lot more than 72 fighters. The current Greenland tension puts us in a really tough spot in implementing the broader play without pulling DJT's crosshairs onto us. Straddling the fence between being a partner in a Europe reducing reliance on the US and having to be neighbours with the US for defense and trade is not an enviable task.

 

[Altair]

Re: Gripens

It's pretty clear to anyone paying attention that the Saab engagement is about a whole lot more than 72 fighters. The current Greenland tension puts us in a really tough spot in implementing the broader play without pulling DJT's crosshairs onto us. Straddling the fence between being a partner in a Europe reducing reliance on the US and having to be neighbours with the US for defense and trade is not an enviable task.

We need to pick a lane.

 

[Quirky]

72 fighters, with mostly US tech, from Sweden is what Canada deserves.

 

[Jarnhamar]

It's pretty clear to anyone paying attention

Shifting the burden of proof away from the speaker and onto the listener? I like it.

 

[Deleted member 175000]

72 fighters, with mostly US tech, from Sweden is what Canada deserves.

Yes yes, your inability to see the forest for the trees is well established.

 

[Deleted member 175000]

Shifting the burden of proof away from the speaker and onto the listener?

The dots are so close close together (and have been written about, both on this board and in news articles) that refusal to connect them is in "lead a horse to water...." territory

 

[suffolkowner]

Re: Gripens

It's pretty clear to anyone paying attention that the Saab engagement is about a whole lot more than 72 fighters. The current Greenland tension puts us in a really tough spot in implementing the broader play without pulling DJT's crosshairs onto us. Straddling the fence between being a partner in a Europe reducing reliance on the US and having to be neighbours with the US for defense and trade is not an enviable task.

we'd be better off with 72000 Carl Gustafs

 

[Deleted member 175000]

we'd be better off with 72000 Carl Gustafs

A Carl G purchase doesn't put us in pole position to slide into an immediate and major vacuum that the US has created in the last year. An Aerospace partnership can.

To quote the CBC article from last week:

By setting up factories in Canada, Saab would produce fighter jets and surveillance aircraft for both the Royal Canadian Air Force and the export market.


Ukraine has shown interest for more than 100 Gripens, while potential customers for the GlobalEye include France and Germany.

To create more than 10,000 direct and indirect jobs in Canada, Saab plans production centres in Ontario and Quebec with a pan-Canadian supplier network.

Of course, Gripen sales are far from a sure thing. But- Ukraine is looking. The Swiss are considering options. It's not outside the realm of possibility.

But Global Eye has a stands a very good chance of becoming the defacto standard AEW&C aircraft for Europe.

 

[suffolkowner]

A Carl G purchase doesn't put us in pole position to slide into an immediate and major vacuum that the US has created in the last year. An Aerospace partnership can.

Im interested in the aerospace partnership, its the only reason to purchase a Gripen. A Swedish/German/Canadian 6th gen consortium beckons.

 

[Altair]

A Carl G purchase doesn't put us in pole position to slide into an immediate and major vacuum that the US has created in the last year. An Aerospace partnership can.

The Gripen talk has been done to death, but it boils down to this.

To some people, nothing the USA has done, can do, or will do in the future can ever knock them off the pedestal of trusted ally.

And if they are a trusted ally you can buy their military equipment.

Meanwhile others view the USA as a geopolitical adversary and as such we shouldn't buy their military equipment any more than we buy Russian t90s or Chinese J35s.

I'm of the view that America is a geopolitical adversary and a threat to our allies, and as such we definitely should not buy their jets.

That said, what people feel about the USA doesn't matter much. It depends what Carney and his government thinks. Based on reading tea leaves, he's much more Eurocentric and he is moving to make deals elsewhere, since America isn't playing ball. Based on that, I think he might make the choice to move away from the F35.

 

[Jarnhamar]

"lead a horse to water...." territory

Ahh see now, I don't prescribe to that kind of can't do mentality that people (not you specifically) use to absolve themselves of failure. We need a generational shift to people who are confident they can not only lead a horse to water, but also make them drink.

Now, engineers use engine thrust (force) rather than horsepower.

The F35 has approx. 28,000 lbf dry thrust (without afterburner) and about 43,000 lbf with afterburner.

The Gripen E has a lame showing of
Approx. 22,000 lbf thrust with afterburner.

Altair's on to something. We need to pick a lane. Lets pick the Hammer lane.

 

[Altair]

Ahh see now, I don't prescribe to that kind of can't do mentality that people (not you specifically) use to absolve themselves of failure. We need a generational shift to people who are confident they can not only lead a horse to water, but also make them drink.

Now, engineers use engine thrust (force) rather than horsepower.

The F35 has approx. 28,000 lbf dry thrust (without afterburner) and about 43,000 lbf with afterburner.

The Gripen E has a lame showing of
Approx. 22,000 lbf thrust with afterburner.

Altair's on to something. We need to pick a lane. Lets pick the Hammer lane.

If we are in the business from buying shit from our enemies, let's consider the J35 beside the F35 shall we?

 

[Deleted member 175000]

@ Altair - Prior to this Greenland move my hope was that we bought as many 35's as reasonably possible while still having the horsepower to pursue the Saab deal.

The 35 is undeniably the better plane, and short of an absolutely worst case scenario we're not fully decoupling from the US.

Saab/ Sweden need a patron with some financial and diplomatic weight, we need technical expertise. It's a good match with some seriously ambitious potential.

 

[Jarnhamar]

If we are in the business from buying shit from our enemies, let's consider the J35 beside the F35 shall we?

Temu stealth aircraft to go along with their Temu electric vehicles we're bringing in by the tens of thousands.

Imagine if their version of "Loyal Wingman" drones were gangly spy balloons they release to float around, and when they land they change into gangly secret police stations that send out bounties on our citizens.

 

[Altair]

Carney is also moving to where the voters are.

Most polls said that people wanted a deal with China if we couldn't get a deal with the USA. Carney did that.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/saab-canada-gripen-globaleye-f35-9.7043896#:~:text=According%20to%20an%20Ekos%20survey,American%2Dbuilt%20F%2D35s.

According to an Ekos survey released last month, 43 per cent of Canadians want the federal government to acquire a fleet of Gripen fighters to replace its aging CF-18s, while 29 per cent are in favour of a mixed fleet made up of Gripens and American-built F-35s.

The option of a single fleet of F-35s was the least popular choice in the survey, at 13 per cent support.

Quebec and British Columbia are the two provinces where purchasing a fleet of F-35s is the least popular option (nine per cent), while the option is most popular in the Atlantic provinces (16 per cent) and in Alberta (18 per cent).

So buying just the F35 is favoured amongst just 13 percent of the population.

I'm sure Carney, who has to date, followed the public in terms of decision making will just ignore the ...let me do math...43+29, carry the 1...72 percent of the Canadian population who want some form of Gripen purchase.

I'm sure. Especial since the F35 is SOOOOOOO popular in Quebec.

 

[suffolkowner]

If we are in the business from buying shit from our enemies, let's consider the J35 beside the F35 shall we?

No, too far lol. One year of the Orange Mad King is not a reason to throw out 100 yrs it just requires some tapdancing that IMO neither Trudeau or Poilievre were capable of

 

[Altair]

@ Altair - Prior to this Greenland move my hope was that we bought as many 35's as reasonably possible while still having the horsepower to pursue the Saab deal.

The 35 is undeniably the better plane, and short of an absolutely worst case scenario we're not fully decoupling from the US.

Saab/ Sweden need a patron with some financial and diplomatic weight, we need technical expertise. It's a good match with some seriously ambitious potential.

I'm happy to note I was team Gripen before it was cool.

But I'm happy people here, and 72 percent of the Canadian public, are coming along to the idea.

 

[Altair]

No, too far lol. One year of the Orange Mad King is not a reason to throw out 100 yrs it just requires some tapdancing that IMO neither Trudeau or Poilievre were capable of

What, his first term didn't count? And his acolytes who have taken over the Republican party won't just continue his nonsense next time they are in power, assuming the Democrats can take the time to get their collective heads out of their asses to actually win an election?

We have seen the signal chat, they people talk like this even when he's not in the room. Vance, Miller, noem, they aren't just playing along to get along, they are MAGA through and through and any assumptions this ends with trump is naivety at best.

 

[Jarnhamar]

So buying just the F35 is favoured amongst just 13 percent of the populatuon

Should we buy our fighter jets based on what the population wants?

Espeically when 44% of said population was somehow unaware the government was releasing a budget?

 

[suffolkowner]

What, his first term didn't count? And his acolytes who have taken over the Republican party won't just continue his nonsense next time they are in power, assuming the Democrats can take the time to get their collective heads out of their asses to actually win an election?

We have seen the signal chat, they people talk like this even when he's not in the room. Vance, Miller, noem, they aren't just playing along to get along, they are MAGA through and through and any assumptions this ends with trump is naivety at best.

i think its fair to say that this term is qualifiably different from the first term yes.
I think PMMC goes as slow as hes possible on these things to buy as much time as he can. Im going to guess that we need to put an F35 order in at some point this year to continue some sort of sensible roll out