Liberal (Minority/Majority) Government 2025 - ???

[Czech_pivo]

In Canada and the US, most people and families earn below average. When talking about average income or taxes, you are describing a group that is above typical. If you want to make honest comparisons between countries and understand what is going on within a country, you need to look at median incomes and median taxes paid.

And then there is this -

Putting America’s staggering federal debt load in a perspective Canadians can understand — The Globe and Mail

U.S. now spends enough on interest costs in one year to pay off Canada’s entire federal debt – and then some

stocks.apple.com

Currently 9 cents of every tax dollar received by our Federal Government goes to pay the interest on our federal debt. As a comparison, it’s 21 cents of every tax dollar received in the US to just cover the interest payments on the federal debt. In 10yrs it will be 26 cents of every dollar received.

Sooner or later it will break them.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Consumer?

Pretty rough out there. Up 11.5% from last year.

 

[Altair]

Pretty rough out there. Up 11.5% from last year.

A couple of things.

First, 5 year fixed rate mortgages. someone getting it at rock bottom interest rates in 2020-2021 will be coming up for renewal at much higher rates now.

Second, flat housing prices. People cannot use equity to bail out their new higher rates

Third, consumer proposals allows people to bail themselves out while staying in their now much more expensive mortgages. (unlike in the USA where you lose your house in a lot of cases)

So, yeah, it's rough, but this was always going to be a slow moving tidal wave the second people bought in at rock bottom rates with the assumption that house prices only go up.

 

[MilEME09]

We're lagging like crazy....

Beyond GDP: Americans’ net wealth has doubled over last decade, while Canadians’ lag far behind​

Canada’s growth trajectory relative to the U.S. is concerning, particularly when it comes to the measures most closely tied to income and work.

Specifically, over the past decade, Americans have seen much stronger financial gains compared to here at home. Average after-tax incomes stateside have risen by about 22 percent, and median net wealth has more than doubled.

In Canada, the progress has been far slower—about 8 percent and 57 percent, respectively. So, while some may criticize per capita GDP as an incomplete, abstract measure of income and prosperity, these OECD findings suggest that its decline is showing up in people’s paycheques, savings, and financial security.



View attachment 101742

Beyond GDP: Americans’ net wealth has doubled over last decade, while Canadians’ lag far behind

The wealth gap between Americans and Canadians has exploded over the past decade. The numbers will surprise you.

thehub.ca

Funny thing about averages, when you got people like Elon Musk pulling that average stupid high, you dont see the proper picture of the average American.

 

[Altair]

Funny thing about averages, when you got people like Elon Musk pulling that average stupid high, you dont see the proper picture of the average American.

Yeah, but its a good tool to use to try to bash Canada so why not post it i guess...

 

[Jarnhamar]

A couple of things.

First, 5 year fixed rate mortgages. someone getting it at rock bottom interest rates in 2020-2021 will be coming up for renewal at much higher rates now.

Second, flat housing prices. People cannot use equity to bail out their new higher rates

Third, consumer proposals allows people to bail themselves out while staying in their now much more expensive mortgages. (unlike in the USA where you lose your house in a lot of cases)

So, yeah, it's rough, but this was always going to be a slow moving tidal wave the second people bought in at rock bottom rates with the assumption that house prices only go up.

Thats why the purchasing economy is worse than the headline numbers we're suggests.

A lot of the pressure is being absorbed through tbose delayed mortgage renewals, consumer proposals, depleted savings, and people simply cutting back. It's not necessarily showing up as immediate defaults or falling GDP.

The system preventing a wave of foreclosures doesn't mean households are healthy. Deterioration is being spread out over time, that might make the economy look healthier on paper.

 

[Altair]

Thats why the purchasing economy is worse than the headline numbers we're suggests.

A lot of the pressure is being absorbed through tbose delayed mortgage renewals, consumer proposals, depleted savings, and people simply cutting back. It's not necessarily showing up as immediate defaults or falling GDP.

The system preventing a wave of foreclosures doesn't mean households are healthy. Deterioration is being spread out over time, that might make the economy look healthier on paper.

I mean, the alternatives were keep pushing higher and higher immigration to juice the housing market and then these folks would not be facing consumer proposals, or flatten immigration and people who bought in 2020 and 2021 would be sacrificed for the greater good.

The truth is, the damage is largely isolated to those 2 years. I have no doubt it will trend back down once those bankruptcies work their way through the system.

Not great news, but not a widespread structural failure either.

I bought in 2023, and my rates have only been going down.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Funny thing about averages, when you got people like Elon Musk pulling that average stupid high, you dont see the proper picture of the average American.

This is one of the reasons Canada fails. Misplaced arrogance about some kind of imagined superiorities.

 

[Brad Sallows]

A country really depends on its top 10% of achievers (it might only be about 5%) to keep it moving forward. Canada has one problem for being next door to the USA and having to compete with it, and then another kind of problem with the tranche of Canadians who think the problem can be ignored.

 

[Altair]

A country really depends on its top 10% of achievers (it might only be about 5%) to keep it moving forward. Canada has one problem for being next door to the USA and having to compete with it, and then another kind of problem with the tranche of Canadians who think the problem can be ignored.

Compare Canada with every other G7 nation and we are on the same trajectory despite being attached to the hip with the highest performer.

The only problem is people thinking that Canada is in a position to try to out compete the Americans.

We don't have a reserve currency.

We cannot just run 6 percent of GDP deficits year after year and print money without the currency falling out from under us.

We don't have the largest capital market in the world making money just slosh around willy nilly inside our economy.

We don't have the petro dollar, where most financial transactions are made in our currency.

We don't have silicon valley where companies can run up valuations way out of touch from their revenue base.

We are a typical middle sized nation with a top 10 GDP that does middle sized nation things. We benefit from being so close to the USA while also suffering, especially in terms of brain drain.

Yet people hold up the USA and compare us to them like we are meant to somehow outperform them.

Meanwhile we stack up nicely to our actual peer nations, France, the UK, Germany, Italy, Japan, Spain, Brazil, our actual peers.

Can we do things better? Sure, everyone can, nobody is perfect. But the constant, oh look at what the USA is doing is complete and utter BS.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Compare Canada with every other G7 nation and we are on the same trajectory despite being attached to the hip with the highest performer.

The only problem is people thinking that Canada is in a position to try to out compete the Americans.

We don't have a reserve currency.

We cannot just run 6 percent of GDP deficits year after year and print money without the currency falling out from under us.

We don't have the largest capital market in the world making money just slosh around willy nilly inside our economy.

We don't have the petro dollar, where most financial transactions are made in our currency.

We don't have silicon valley where companies can run up valuations way out of touch from their revenue base.

We are a typical middle sized nation with a top 10 GDP that does middle sized nation things. We benefit from being so close to the USA while also suffering, especially in terms of brain drain.

Yet people hold up the USA and compare us to them like we are meant to somehow outperform them.

Meanwhile we stack up nicely to our actual peer nations, France, the UK, Germany, Italy, Japan, Spain, Brazil, our actual peers.

Everything up to this point is just decoration, because after all the excuse-making we are left with...

Can we do things better? Sure, everyone can, nobody is perfect. But the constant, oh look at what the USA is doing is complete and utter BS.

...with or without another parting shot at exhortations to do better using the USA as a milestone - a self-crippling exercise, because that's the benchmark to aim for.

We have to do better. If we don't, eventually the gaps will be so large that there will be no statistical measures which can paper over obvious differences between how we can consume and how Americans consume.

The kinds of lives most people could lead in Canada, Mexico, US in 1820.
In 1920.
In 2020.

Seeing any differences?

 

[Altair]

Everything up to this point is just decoration, because after all the excuse-making we are left with...

...with or without another parting shot at exhortations to do better using the USA as a milestone - a self-crippling exercise, because that's the benchmark to aim for.

We have to do better. If we don't, eventually the gaps will be so large that there will be no statistical measures which can paper over obvious differences between how we can consume and how Americans consume.

The kinds of lives most people could lead in Canada, Mexico, US in 1820.
In 1920.
In 2020.

Seeing any differences?

Every developed nation strives to the best it can.

Every developed country is filled with smart and educated individuals.

But be that as it may, all things being equal, a 100 smart people in the sahara are not going to do as well as 100 smart people in new york, or paris, or london.

The USA has several structural advantages over Canada. Larger population base. Better climate. More liveable land. More ports. Larger industrial and financial bases. These advantages existed from before Canada was or the USA was a nation.

So naturally, via circumstance, we are not going to be able to keep up. The extent we have been able to throughout our history is a testiment to how well we have been able to do as a nation.

But the fact remains, the USA is a superpower, and can do superpower things. We are not. When we look globally, and we are top 20, or top 10 in certain categories, that's not a slight. We are performing exactly where we shoud be, all things being equal. We have a top 10 GDP in the world, we are 38th biggest in terms of population, and we are performing as well as the European heavyweights, if not better. We are performing as well as the 2nd biggest economy in Asia, if not better. We are performing as well as the largest GDP in South America, if not better.

Yeah, we don't do as well as China or the USA. The fallacy is that we ever should.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Every developed nation strives to the best it can.

Every developed country is filled with smart and educated individuals.

I don't believe all nations do. I believe there are a lot of cultural impediments. I believe a lot of the people who get into high positions are driven by ideologies that are sub-optimal, and are (even worse) driven by an impulse to impose their sub-optimal ideologies on others.

The USA has several structural advantages over Canada. Larger population base. Better climate. More liveable land. More ports. Larger industrial and financial bases. These advantages existed from before Canada was or the USA was a nation.

Lots of countries have favourable geography and climate. And ports and all the rest are outputs, not inputs. Depriving Canada of infrastructure is something we do to ourselves. (I don't give any countenance to arguments that there are particular tracts of land or stretches of coastline that need to be pristine for the handfuls of people who live in them.)

Yeah, we don't do as well as China or the USA. The fallacy is that we ever should.

Sure we should. I'm not writing about the sum of national power; I'm writing about the things ordinary people can consume and aspire to. Most Canadians are clearly ahead of most Chinese; ergo, it's possible for the people in less blessed countries to do better.

Canada doesn't do better because even with the good examples and horrible warnings around the world right in front of our faces, we are unable to make big changes to how we govern ourselves and in the relationships between individuals and between individuals and the governments.

 

[Altair]

I don't believe all nations do. I believe there are a lot of cultural impediments. I believe a lot of the people who get into high positions are driven by ideologies that are sub-optimal, and are (even worse) driven by an impulse to impose their sub-optimal ideologies on others.

Lots of countries have favourable geography and climate. And ports and all the rest are outputs, not inputs. Depriving Canada of infrastructure is something we do to ourselves. (I don't give any countenance to arguments that there are particular tracts of land or stretches of coastline that need to be pristine for the handfuls of people who live in them.)

Sure we should. I'm not writing about the sum of national power; I'm writing about the things ordinary people can consume and aspire to. Most Canadians are clearly ahead of most Chinese; ergo, it's possible for the people in less blessed countries to do better.

Canada doesn't do better because even with the good examples and horrible warnings around the world right in front of our faces, we are unable to make big changes to how we govern ourselves and in the relationships between individuals and between individuals and the governments.

Let's shrink the scale here.

Are New Brunswickers failures for not keeping up with Alberta? Are Albertans failures for not having the financial sector of Ontario? Are Saskatchewanians failures for not keeping up with Quebec? Are Nova Scotians failures for not keeping up with British Colombia? Are Prince Edward Islanders failures for not keeping up with Newfoundlanders?

Naturally, no. Each province has its own set of circumstances and strengths and weaknesses.

Expecting PEI to keep up economically with Ontario is kind of foolish, but somehow Canada is meant to keep up with the USA.

Alright then.