Light Mortars

[big bad john]

I have heard little and seen less on the use of the 60mm mortar by the Canadian Forces.  Can anyone enlighten me?

 

[AmmoTech90]

Bah!
Posted this first by accident under the SA mortar thread...

Well as far as the ammo goes there are three types of non-practice rounds in sevice.
The C110 HE round, the C112 Illum round, and the C157 WP Smk round.  You may also encounter the C111 Smk RP round still kicking around in places.  They all use a common tail unit (C2), increment charges, and primary cartridges.  More information may be obtained by pulling up the Canadian Forces Technical Order on 60mm Ammunition from Pubs Depot site (DWAN users only).

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

BigBadJohn,

I'm out of my lane here but I'll tell you what I know!

I believe that the 60mm mortar is part of the Platoon Weapons Det (1 x 60mm mortar per platoon) and one is in the Coy HQ, but I am not sure how much they are used.  In a previous life I spent a summer as an Infantry Platoon Commander and I had one 60mm mortar that we carried around.  As a tank Troop Leader on exercise with a mech infantry unit in 1998 I had to adjust a Leopard run-up position because it was interfering with the platoon 60mm mortar  ???.  We have some in our unit (RCD) that were for our Recce Sqn Assault Troop but it has been some time since they were used.  The QL3 Inf (reg force) taught 60mm three years ago but I do not know if it is currently taught on the BIQ.

I read a paper in the old Infantry Journal some years back that suggested forming a Coy Mortar Det of four 60mm mortars (like the USMC).  As for the present and future of the 60mm Mortar I am not sure.  M203s and AGLs might spell the doom of light mortars in our army, but I think that light mortars actually have some capabilities that the various grenade launchers do not.

Here is a thread that touches on the 60mm Mortar (but is mostly about the removal of the 81 mm from the Infantry Battalion).

http://army.ca/forums/threads/1910.0.html

Cheers (and my apologies if didn't actually tell you anything you didn't already know),

2B

 

[dangerboy]

The 60 mm in the bipod is taught on the DP2A . It is taught in the direct fire role only, we do not cover indirect fire.

 

[big bad john]

I started the thread because of a discussion with an old friend last evening.  He started telling me about this "new miracle" long range 60mm Mortar that the South African Army had just bought.  I realized that I had never seen a Canadian 60mm mortar at BATUS.  I checked the mortar thread under Arty but as has been said, it is mostly on the 81mm.

 

[BernDawg]

I can assure you that we used one there in 86.  Much to the dismay of the boys that have to fix the target mechanisms!

 

[big bad john]

LOL  I was there last year, I must have missed out!

 

[BernDawg]

Oops.  I guess I'm dating myself!  Good piece of kit though.
Later

 

[Infanteer]

As a tank Troop Leader on exercise with a mech infantry unit in 1998 I had to adjust a Leopard run-up position because it was interfering with the platoon 60mm mortar    ???.

Why do I find that amusing (or disturbing)... :blotto:

I read a paper in the old Infantry Journal some years back that suggested forming a Coy Mortar Det of four 60mm mortars (like the USMC).

In every company attack I did on work-up, all the Platoon mortars were gathered up and a company mortar section was formed.

Flexibility can overcome all those silly doctrinal problems....

 

[Michael OLeary]

Flexibility can overcome all those silly doctrinal problems....

When I was the SME Mortars at the School of Infantry in the late 80s, my cell was responsible for the instruction of NCOs and officers in fire control, safety and tactics for the 81 mm. The 60 mm was under the purview of the Small Arms Section and, doctrinally, we only used it in the dismounted, handheld role.

We knew that various units were experimenting withe the 60 mm on the old bipods and baseplates, using experienced Advanced Mortar NCOs to train soldiers in bipod mounted direct fire drills, using the sights with modified drills, and adapting existing mortar and machine-gun C2 sightunit drills. This was apparent from the contacts we had in the units, as well as a few prominent photos from a base newspaper showing them in use.

At the time I offered to develop and write bipod and indirect fire drills for the 60 mm, ensuring compatibility with the existing drills in the battlaion mortar platoons. I was told, in no uncertain terms, that I was not to write a single word on the 60, both because it wasn't under my area of responsibiity and because our doctrine doesn't employ it on the bipod. Since then we have seen them used more often as a bipod mounted weapon system and grouped at company level weapon in training (and probably on operations - pbi, Mark C?) yet we still do not have a documented set of drills and fire control processes.

 

[Infanteer]

See what I mean!!!    ;D

 

[MG34]

We use the 60mm quite often,espescially as of late ,in one shoot we (my Platoon) fired over 200 rounds of C110 HE,a good shoot had by all. Although there is no hard and fast doctrine,we simple adopted the 81mm drills and skills for our mortar teams.It works quite well and we can do indirect fire to a point. Since the Army in it's total lack of vision has removed our organic fire support the 60mm is being used more often in the role the 81mm had,not as effective but it is something.

 

[big bad john]

More and more militaries are going to the new Long Range 60mm Motars.  The US for example.  The RM has just aquired some from the US.

 

[Britney Spears]

<a href=http://www.geocities.com/equipmentshop/realmountaindivision.htm>Long, rambling sumary of Op Anaconda </a>

Equipment wise, our greatest shortcomings were optics and organic or direct support long-range weapons. After the initial fight all our targets were at a minimum of 1500m all the way out to as far as you could see. Our 60[mm] and 81[mm]'s accounted for most of the kills. Next was a Canadian Sniper team with a MacMillian .50 cal [sniper rifle]. They got kills all the way out to 2500m.

The other problem was the Air Force could never fly in small groups of Personnel, I watched and called corrections on numerous sorties and they could never hit the targets. My verdict is if you want it killed use your mortars.

We all carried in 2 mortar rounds apiece and that was more than enough. We took mix of everything; the only thing we used was wp [White Phosphorous] and he [High Explosive]. All together we took in at least 120 rounds as a company air assault.

- The enemy is as tactically proficient as we are. They are professional soldiers, even if they don't wear helmets and patches. They are superior marksmen, not only with rifle and machine guns but with mortars and RPGs as well. They specifically targeted our mortar, but not necessarily our leaders (more on that later). They adapt quickly and change tactics as required.

No matter how many air strikes he called in and how many smart bombs were dropped, his company continued to receive incoming mortar fire and small arms fire from caves hidden in the ridgelines above him. At times, the Al Qaeda fighters would emerge from their caves and taunt our boys, making fun of our inability to kill them with our smart bombs. Captain Butler eventually killed a number of these jokers, using a dime store 60mm mortar and timing an airburst above them as they emerged from a cave to taunt him once again.

This is evidence that taking-the-fight-to-the-enemy with rifles, pistols, grenades and mortars proved to be more effective in this terrain than the use of airstrikes.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Britney,

Good AAR post!  My own (non-Infantry) opinion is that there is a place for a 60mm mortar detachment of several tubes at Company level.  AGLs are gaining in popularity, but the comparative light weight and similicity of the 60mm mortar makes it attractive.  I went on an exercise with a USMC Weapons Company and althouth they had Mk19s and 81mm mortars the line companies still retained their 60mm mortars.  A briefing from a USMC officer who served in Fallujah also indicated that the 60mm mortars were used, while 81mms and artillery were not.  Based on MG34's post the 60mm still has some supporters!  I have yet to hear, however, about the 60mm in the various weapons briefings that I have attended recently.  ALAWS and CASW seem to be the cause celebre right now.  A light infantry company with a "platoon" of 60mm mortars and some indirect fire procedures would give some options to the Company Commander.

MG34,

Is the 60mm still a platoon weapon in your unit or do you practice grouping them?

Mike,

I love stories like that about how doctrine and school-house turf protection becomes a straight-jacket.  :blotto:  Sometimes our Army (institutionally, not individually) is about as flexible as a lead pipe.

Infanteer,

To be fair to the platoon commander in question, my Troop had been plunked into his area after the position had been sited.  We had just come from a day-long delay operation (good cold war stuff) and had not been incorporated into the plan.  I requested and received permission for a boundary change and spread out. :warstory:

Cheers,

2B

 

[big bad john]

In the RM every Troop has a 60mm and it is indispensable. 

In the South Atlantic we actually had 2 per Troop for the attack on the Two Sisters.  These were not kept at the Company level.  The only problem was keeping enough ammunition stocked as we were deficient in Helo support.

These days with one tube per Troop, you see them grouped at the Company level more often than not.  Every Marines in proficient in their use. 

Here in Canada they seem to be orphans, so to speak.

 

[Britney Spears]

As mentioned fleetingly in the previous post, did 2/3 Para have mortars for the attack on Goose Green?

 

[big bad john]

At the time I was elsewhere some what engaged myself.  I know that they had 81mm's for sure.  I don't know how there 60mm were organized.  The Army being somewhat different from the Royals.

 

[Kirkhill]

Big Bad John

Doesn't the Brit Army and the RAF Regiment - as opposed to the Marines - still use the 51mms at platoon level?  They are strictly hand-held and don't have a bipod as I understand it so there generally wouldn't be a grouping of them.  The Battalions seem to rely strictly on the 81s for fire support.  I guess that this is based on an intention to use the Battalion as a unit rather than, potentially, as three independent sub-units.

Can you clarify and correct here?

Cheers.

 

[baboon6]

According to Mark Adkin's book about Goose Green, 2 Para's mortar platoon took two 81mm with, the rest of the platoon carried ammo. Most of the rest of the battalion did too- 500 bombs altogether. B and D Coys took their platoon 2inch mortars (1 tube per platoon), A Coy did not. There were no HE bombs for the 2inch- just illum and smoke.