Light Support Weapons & Infantry Automatic Rifles

[daftandbarmy]

I like th bayonet idea.....

Serious, two per section? Very cool and a good idea.
Or will some big brain decide since its 7.62 then it's too expensive for two per section, and doctrine will change to one/section?

I led platoons with 2 x C6 per section, albeit in peacetime training, and it worked great. At the section level, each 4 man team had its own 2 man fire base and 2 man assault team. Talking to my colleagues who used that org in the Falklands it was one of the biggest success factors when fighting through positions where you generally had little idea where the bad guys would pop up which, IIRC, would be like most situations during the real thing. The argument that the gun is 'too heavy' is ridiculous, of course, when the question of life or death pops up.

They were pretty adamant about the need for a belt fed 7.62 weapon too as the weight and continuity of fire was critical.

 

[GAP]

I'm dated, but we always were more comfortable with a M60 in friendly reach

 

[a_majoor]

Could go to HK and ask them to do same thing with HK417 they just did for Marines with HK416 in creating the M27 (IAR).

That would be cheating.......

 

[Jarnhamar]

M27 is interesting. C9 replacement that's also accurate enough to be used as a designated marksman rifle apparently.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I'm dated, but we always were more comfortable with a M60 in friendly reach

Get some

 

[MilEME09]

M27 is interesting. C9 replacement that's also accurate enough to be used as a designated marksman rifle apparently.

The M27 I like because of the short stroke pistol action, but really slap a C7 on full auto and give it a bi-pod (if you desire) and you basically have the same thing. I would like to see the stress test's and combat reports for the M27. The barrel of the FN Minimi family get's hot, and fast, how bad is this in the M27? how fast is the heat dissipated? and many other questions I have about the M27. It's a different way to do things for sure, but this shift for the USMC will have it's drawbacks as well.

 

[MilEME09]

I heard and saw pictures over a year ago but it is official now.

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/news/2017/07/new_machine_gunsforcanadianarmedforces.html

July 26, 2017 – Ottawa – National Defence / Canadian Armed Forces

The Government of Canada is committed to providing the women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces with the equipment and training they need to do their jobs. To support this commitment, the Government of Canada will purchase 1148 new C6A1 FLEX General Purpose Machine Guns (GPMG) from Colt Canada, Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan announced today.

The current C6 machine guns were procured over 30 years ago. Some have been removed from service due to wear and tear and others are reaching the end of their service life. This purchase will provide the Canadian Armed Forces with a modern and reliable weapon to support training and operations.

The new C6A1 FLEX (flexible) is designed to be carried by soldiers or attached to vehicles such as the new Tactical Armoured Patrol Vehicle. The new machine gun will feature a durable polymer butt stock instead of the current wooden style. Additionally, soldiers will be able to attach pointing devices and optical sighting systems to the new weapon to help increase their operational effectiveness.

The contract with Colt Canada will result in approximately 13 new jobs and contribute to maintaining approximately 100 jobs at the company.

This procurement aligns with the commitment under Canada’s defence policy, Strong, Secure, Engaged, to modernize, renew and restore Canada’s military by providing them with the tools they need to succeed in operations. As outlined in Strong, Secure, Engaged, such investments will improve the Canadian Army’s operational capability, and will help provide an advantage over potential adversaries.

 

[a_majoor]

The M27 I like because of the short stroke pistol action, but really slap a C7 on full auto and give it a bi-pod (if you desire) and you basically have the same thing. I would like to see the stress test's and combat reports for the M27. The barrel of the FN Minimi family get's hot, and fast, how bad is this in the M27? how fast is the heat dissipated? and many other questions I have about the M27. It's a different way to do things for sure, but this shift for the USMC will have it's drawbacks as well.

I'm pretty sure that Canada was offered a version of the C-7 as a SAW when it was first brought out (I think the Dutch Marines actually bought it). Heavy barrel, bipod etc. I personally don't see anything like this being an improvement over a C-9 or similar LMG, the increase in firepower due to belt feed and changeable barrels is far greater than anything an assault rifle on steroids can produce.

As a counterpart, the US Army seems to be planning to recreate the M-2 HMG in an all titanium version in order to radically reduce the weight. While the idea of a much lighter gun has lots of merit, it should be noted the "Dover Devil" HMG prototype was made of steel and far lighter than the M-2. The CIS .50 was reverse engineered from many of the ideas of the Dover Devil, and only weighs 30kg. I suspect that a similar design scaled down for 7.62 would be significantly lighter than the current C-6 (and having a dual feed would provide for interesting options, assuming there is the desire to purchase different types of 7.62 X 51 ammunition).

Of course, if I was in charge of things, we would be diligently working to get a 7mm LSAT into production as the single calibre for infantry rifles, section and platoon machine guns instead....

 

[Underway]

I led platoons with 2 x C6 per section, albeit in peacetime training, and it worked great. At the section level, each 4 man team had its own 2 man fire base and 2 man assault team. Talking to my colleagues who used that org in the Falklands it was one of the biggest success factors when fighting through positions where you generally had little idea where the bad guys would pop up which, IIRC, would be like most situations during the real thing. The argument that the gun is 'too heavy' is ridiculous, of course, when the question of life or death pops up.

They were pretty adamant about the need for a belt fed 7.62 weapon too as the weight and continuity of fire was critical.

Were the platoons you lead equipped with body armour?  I'm sure the Falklands ones weren't just for comparison.  Not saying that too heavy is or isn't a problem but it's probably less of a problem when you don't have the extra 13.5lb of body armour on.  If you add the extra C-6 does that mean you should drop the armour in the platoon? Just throwing that out there as a potential snag.  Also does CSOR wear body armour on a regular basis? I'll sit back and let the experts talk again.  :nod:

 

[MilEME09]

The US recently did test on a .338 mmg that found that it had similar stopping power to a .50 for minimal loss of range, and a substantial decrease in weight. It is perfectly possible that the wide spread use of the .50 could be declining in the near future.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Were the platoons you lead equipped with body armour?  I'm sure the Falklands ones weren't just for comparison.  Not saying that too heavy is or isn't a problem but it's probably less of a problem when you don't have the extra 13.5lb of body armour on.  If you add the extra C-6 does that mean you should drop the armour in the platoon? Just throwing that out there as a potential snag.  Also does CSOR wear body armour on a regular basis? I'll sit back and let the experts talk again.  :nod:

No, we never wore body armour (or helmets if we could get away with it). Except in the cities in Northern Ireland where we wore INIBA (no helmet again) and carried as little as possible to facilitate sprinting after pond life, and endless foot patrols. On an average tour it was estimated that a squaddy could cover over 200kms weekly on foot. No INIBA or helmets in the cuds in 'Bandit Country'.

We did, however, regularly practice moving quickly across country/mountains on foot, up to 40-60 miles over the course of 4-5 days. We carried 4 days rations per man as an SOP. And C6 SF, and 84mm MRAW, and 81mm MOR etc etc. Personal kit was bare bones: 3 pairs of socks, rain jacket (semi-waterproof) and a 'wooly pully'.

 

[a_majoor]

The US recently did test on a .338 mmg that found that it had similar stopping power to a .50 for minimal loss of range, and a substantial decrease in weight. It is perfectly possible that the wide spread use of the .50 could be declining in the near future.

The "Dover Devil" and the CIS .50 HMG weigh in at @ 30kg, how does this .338 MG compare?

Truthfully, I also see a decline in the venerable.50 HMG as well, but think that automatic grenade launchers, especially with ballistic computers and advanced ammunition (think of programmable shells like the XM-25, but these fuses are fitted to 40mm grenades) are probably the next wave in heavy direct fire weapons. Bringing the weight of these weapons down to the level of the AGS-30 (16 kg complete with tripod) is needed to make them much more useful on the battlefield, however.

 

[MilEME09]

The "Dover Devil" and the CIS .50 HMG weigh in at @ 30kg, how does this .338 MG compare?

Truthfully, I also see a decline in the venerable.50 HMG as well, but think that automatic grenade launchers, especially with ballistic computers and advanced ammunition (think of programmable shells like the XM-25, but these fuses are fitted to 40mm grenades) are probably the next wave in heavy direct fire weapons. Bringing the weight of these weapons down to the level of the AGS-30 (16 kg complete with tripod) is needed to make them much more useful on the battlefield, however.

The .338 LWMMG produced by GD is about 10kg, effective range by it self on a bi-pod is 1700m, max range 5,642m, 500RPM, Give it a SF kit and I'm sure it will work great.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The .338 LWMMG produced by GD is about 10kg, effective range by it self on a bi-pod is 1700m, max range 5,642m, 500RPM, Give it a SF kit and I'm sure it will work great.

Give me great arty/mor support and a butter knife, and I'll trade you for the long range rifle 'bells and whistles.'

The weaker the indir fire support, the more the infantry has to rely on DIY options, sadly...

 

[brihard]

Were the platoons you lead equipped with body armour?

Bear in mind that there are new hard armour plates in the system that are down to a couple of pounds each. The big ceramic bastards we were wearing in Kandahar are still in general circulation, but the CAF can easily choose a much lighter option for conventional forces should they be willing to spend the money.

 

[PuckChaser]

Its a question of how much risk we're willing to take. I was in Kandahar when they started replacing the crappy shoulder flaps with full bicep protection, and when I went to Kabul 4 years later we had neck protection as well. No option to remove some of that soft armor, full thing had to be worn. We're so risk adverse, if someone sold a ballistic bubble wrap that said it would stop someone from ever being injured, the Puzzle Palace would decree everyone will be required to be wrapped in it, regardless if they could complete their mission or not.

Super lightweight plates are out there, but when that weight comes off, so does the protective levels, especially from high velocity rounds.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Its a question of how much risk we're willing to take. I was in Kandahar when they started replacing the crappy shoulder flaps with full bicep protection, and when I went to Kabul 4 years later we had neck protection as well. No option to remove some of that soft armor, full thing had to be worn. We're so risk adverse, if someone sold a ballistic bubble wrap that said it would stop someone from ever being injured, the Puzzle Palace would decree everyone will be required to be wrapped in it, regardless if they could complete their mission or not.

Super lightweight plates are out there, but when that weight comes off, so does the protective levels, especially from high velocity rounds.

Here's a theory for you: the less we care about flak jackets, the more we care about national survival.

Discuss....

 

[Ostrozac]

Here's a theory for you: the less we care about flak jackets, the more we care about national survival.

Discuss....

Due to geography, Canada's not in a position to fight a war of national survival, nor arguably have we ever been in such a position. Even during the War of 1812 the US was never in a position to fully seize all of what would become British North America; 'adjustments' to the borders were a more reasonable war aim.

But by looking at other countries, casualty aversion doesn't seem tied directly to wars of national survival. Israel is very casualty averse, despite being in a vulnerable strategic position. There are other factors at play.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Israel is very casualty averse, despite being in a vulnerable strategic position. There are other factors at play.

People are harder to replace than equipment.  At least I think that is their theory.

 

[Blackadder1916]

People Public opinion is harder to replace than equipment people.  At least I think that is their theory.

TFTFY  Probably the same theory of political practice in Canada.