Loading the Tac Vest

[brihard]

IMHO, extra snivel kit like socks, ranger blankets, extra rations, ETC are what I bought my nuke bag for. Granted, I'm a reservist with little experience, but having read many of the threads here I appreciate the need for having all your MISSION ESSENTIAL gear immediately on-hand. I NEED my Ammo. I NEED my pyro. I NEED my navigation tools. I (may) NEED Field Dressings (And bloody well better have 'em if I do). I NEED to carry my share of any Comms, section LMG ammo, or any other mission essential gear. Water can go on the back, or if you actually have the space (unlikely), carry a 2L.

I may need new socks, but I can survive without them for a little while. Besides that, I generally wear my Gortex socks anyway to make sure my feet'll stay dry. These and anything not on that list are wants, not needs. Only combat/mission essential kit should go in the Tac Vest, as space is at an absolute premium in that POS.

I think the best compromise is to coordinate, at the section or platoon level, where that mission essential kit goes in the Tac-Vest. After that, anything else should be left to the individual. The combat pants have enough space left over for anything else you may need; notebook, your other couple of mags, etc.

thinking logically, in a combat situation, frigging with all the pockets to grab the gear would probably take longer than grabbing on the web handle at the top of the vest and jus dragging buddy to where you've got some cover. Absent that, jsut taking off his entire vest would probably be relavtively quick. I can think of very VERY few situations where one would be limited to rooting through each and every pouch and pocket individually while being shot at. I have to think in most cases it's easier to drag him to cover...

 

[foerestedwarrior]

Let me clarify, standarization of kit to include things like rainsuit complete, and all that weird crap, is usless, but, like I said, making everyone carry the same thing in the same way, forces say a C9/C6 gunner to compensate for the odd layout.

 

[big bad john]

You don't get it.  It means that you standarize as much as possible.  That is all C9 Gunners carry the same load in the same place on their vests, all battle dressings in the same place, no Yorkie bars in your compass pouch, ect..

 

[JimmyPeeOn]

As of now, our "Garrison wear"  (when the **** do you wear the TV in garrison? hehe)

Right side
2X c7 mag
1X Mag light
C13
1 qt canteen horizontal or vertical (horizontal rocks!)
1Xsmoke
and in the front pouch
Wpn EIS sling (good luck with the "patrol" sling)
50' para cord
KFS
grey socks

lLeft side
2X C7mag
map/munchies
C13
C9 pouch is rain suit.  (total ******* hassle and i would rather get wet than have to put it back)
1X smoke
whistle (never seen it)
and in the front
Cbt golves(old style w/ liners)
Lypsol
Earplugs
Gas pouch sling
boot laces
2Xfield dressing

Anyways, its ridiculous and once you get in the field you can do what you want as long as you have ammo water and what you need to bring a fight.

 

[foerestedwarrior]

You don't get it.   It means that you standarize as much as possible.   That is all C9 Gunners carry the same load in the same place on their vests, all battle dressings in the same place, no Yorkie bars in your compass pouch, ect..

I know that, I mean that to make everyone carry the same thing,in the same pouch, regardless of role is, IMO, wrong.

 

[KevinB]

BBJ - let me get this straight - you want to enforce placing all kit in the same area?

I fail to see your logic - first aid stuff - to a point and mark it with a red cross - its pretty simple.
Mags - if I am scrurrying along the dead - I am taking their LBE compete not doign a fucking inventory of their OP150 kit list.  Once under cover I will sort out what is needed from not.
My kit won't bear C9 ammo - so I'd need to lift the gunners LBE anyway.  This is why Matt Fisher and few others proposed the M203 grenadier belt - so one can grab it can the grenadiers wpn and go.


I'll add some other issue I think relevant - which came from a discussion over on the Lightfighter board - regarding E&E kit


my comments

What exactly are we considering E&E here?

Is it gear to exist for a short space of time to assist you in evading contact - possibly doign first aid and rejoining friendlies?

Or is it kit designed to keep the user alive in a SR type mission setting where things have goen wrong and he will have to exist for a long period of time with no expectation for recovery?


I think too many are reading into the B20 setting. IMHO if I have to drop my ruck in a firefight on a recce - 1) I am fucked already 2) I am dropping my kit and we are going hell bent for leather - I won't have time to dock and lock or what have you if it aint on my LBV/Chestrig - it aint coming...

I think some are mistaking gear issues - Whike I have a detachable "patrol pack" on my ruck - I make no illusions that I could grab it and go if we drew attention. I use it a day+ pack when moving from a patrol base or cache to do something for a shorter period of time and/or stay lighter/stealthier.

and Razor (as US #rd TF guy) 's responce

Ah, Kevin pops the golden question. Along with that, what's your mission, and what is the disposition of forces around you? Truth is, very, very few folks will ever be in the position to be executing a 100km evasion in enemy-controlled territory, so why spend so much energy trying to plan for one? Far and away, most guys are conventional troops and are relatively close to friendly forces should they need to evade capture, so the focus should be as Kevin stated in #1--evade for a short period of time, apply medical aid as necessary, and fight like hell to link back up with the good guys. Shouldn't last more than 24-48hrs, tops. So, what would you need to do this? In a perfect world, a radio, spare ammo, and extra med supplies would do the trick. However, in all likelyhood if you're running for your life, you'll have what's on your fighting load and not much else. Really hope you have comms, though, as trying to effect a link-up in indian country without any comms would be really, really dicey.

So I will make a point that I think some of the ideals of everyone the same is not a valid as other beleive.

1) We get hit - and am either - trying to beat feet ASAP - or we are tryign to win the firefight and close with and destory the en.
- until either is done I am not visiting the deadand wounded - unless a C9 gunner drops dead at my feet when we are closing and destroying - they I will simply take his wpn and LBE in addition to my own until I can pawn it off.

 

[big bad john]

Maybe it is different in Canada, please tell me if it is.  But when you start letting people decide how they will pack and load their belt kit, next they will decide what they want to carry.  "I really don't need a compass because the Cpl has a GPS and he has extra batteries so I don't need to carry any", ect..  Please consider that it not as easy to remove someones belt kit as you might think.  I have seen it done in an active situation.  Many times it is easier to remove what you need.  During the Great Yomp across East falkland for nearly 36 hours we survived on ammunition from our dead, wounded and what we could take from the Arggies.  You went through their kit and took what you needed.  Stripping Squaddies took twice as long as most of them customized their load.  Stripping Marines was simple you knew where and what they would be carrying.

All you need do is catch 1 Private carrying and wearing his Belt load differently once and the rest will conform.

My 2 pence.

 

[KevinB]

Usually I make it a point to try to soldier with troops that know what to pack - If one has to tell them what to pack I am not sure I want to be soldiering with them.

 

[Fusaki]

This is what I'm currently carrying in Kabul, Afghanistan...

Left C9 pouch - C9 ammo
Left smoke pouch - smoke, if issued.
Left grenade pouch - compass
Left utility pouch - foot powder gun taped shut, to use if I ever have to prod my way out of a mine field. Black electrical tape.
Left mag pouches - flex cuffs (an IR glowstick is also tied to my shoulder strap and tucked into a mag pouch when not in use)

Right utility pouch - field dressing, small bottle of hand sanitizer, spare batteries.
Right C9 pouch - MNVG
Right smoke pouch - field dressing and latex gloves
Right grenade pouch - small CLP bottle and rag
Right mag pouches - Green and IR glowsticks

PRR on my left shoulder
Camelbak on my back
Map in its pocket
Helmet clipped with a caribiner on my right side.
Bayonet worn on the front of the vest

A strict kit layout is not currently enforced in my unit, but you'd better have everything you need when the time comes. I don't know about you guys, but most people I work with have a field dressing in one of their smoke pouches. Its sort of an unofficial standardization. As for the rest of the stuff, I think I've cut my own kit list down to the bare minimum. I might be a little light on the ammo, but we never get too far from the LAV. Besides, the threat is from a handfull of fanatics, NOT the Red Army. The odds are I'll use flex cuffs and glowsticks before I burn 400 rounds 5.56.

 

[big bad john]

Usually I make it a point to try to soldier with troops that know what to pack - If one has to tell them what to pack I am not sure I want to be soldiering with them.

I wasn't aware that you could pick and choose who you serve with.

 

[KevinB]

I wasn't aware that you could pick and choose who you serve with.

No but you should not be deploying on operations with troops that can't find their ass with both hands.

ANY trained soldier should not need a kit list - they should learn through training and if they are still unsure a little NCO assistance as to should be brung and what should not. 

In recent times (US) studies have found that soliders who can assemble their gear the way they want, that is the most ergonomically effective for them, and can gain muscle memory in that set up, will perform better under stress when one loses fine muscle control. 

 

[big bad john]

No but you should not be deploying on operations with troops that can't find their ass with both hands.

ANY trained soldier should not need a kit list - they should learn through training and if they are still unsure a little NCO assistance as to should be brung and what should not.  

In recent times (US) studies have found that soliders who can assemble their gear the way they want, that is the most ergonomically effective for them, and can gain muscle memory in that set up, will perform better under stress when one loses fine muscle control.  

I was under the impression that most Soldiers under go OJT with their units, at least that is how it is in the UK.  Load list can be modified by units (Battalion level decision).

Muscle memory is gained by repetition The "Sellers Study" at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore determined that muscle memory can be gained by repetitious use and memory mapping.  Which is why blinded training is done.  That is for example stripping a weapon blindfolded ect..

 

[KevinB]

BBJ - no we get troops after they have done their Basic and Infantry Battleschool - no OJT - so they have about 9 months of "training" behind them - more often than not they then get sent on a month or longer Ex with the Bn about as soon as they arrive.

In theory after that they should be able to make an informed decision as to what they ned to fight and die with - of course there are the obvious exceptions...

Much more recent studies of US SOF are highlighting certain issues - problem is it is not filtering down past the SO force (especially true in Canada)

Of course I have also seen a WO drop the ammo load out for his troops for it did not really fit the tacvest well   ???




Ghost - your right in principle - however what happens if the LAV gets hit - will you have time to grab your extra kit and go?   For a C9 gunner I find 400rds VERY light - even for an expected LIGHT opposition - sooner or later a bunch of folk that don't like us very much are going to hit a convoy - and watching the apathy level like they do - they will know exaclty how long they think you can stay in the fight, and how long the SLF â„¢ takes to deploy...



*SLF (Slow Reaction Farce) is a QRF trademark of RotoII B Coy 1PPCLI   ;D

 

[KevinB]

A different PSP vest (both CADPAT and CADPAT AR versions)

and the Paraclete RAV and AR10T (gun porn for no real reason )

FWIW the PSP vest is of MUCH higher quality than the issued one  : (go figure)

 

[Infanteer]

I'm just wondering if, with all the recent US experience in the sandbox, what their AAR's and Lessons Learned are saying about "wear your gear in the same place, troops".   It seems to be that they all (most) have some sort of modular PALS system and they add and subtract carrying capacity as needed - kinda pointless to issue out a modular load carriage system if you're going to put an "RSM strait-jacket" on them and make them all configure it in the same way.

Kit lists are important - you want to make sure all the bases are covered and not everyone in the Platoon is going to be a JTF assaulter - so it is important to cover the basics with a soldier proof method.   However, kit lists need to adhere to some form of packing discipline - from SLA Marshall's The Soldiers Load and the Mobility of a Nation to some recent US Army material that Kevin sent me, the obvious trend still exists that higher echelons like to load down the pointy end with too much junk, for both administrative and tactical loadouts.   I'm still trying to figure out why I deployed to Bosnia with fighting order, a ruck, two duffel bags, three barrack boxes, and a backpack; I don't think I even opened most of that shit while I was there.   This is dangerous if not properly observed, soldiers arrive wherever they need to go exhausted and unprepared for the fight.

So we give everyone a basic kit list (you - NVG's, batteries, 10 mags, 1 C-6 belt, couple frags, etc, etc).   Is it really necessary to tell everyone where to put everything?   I mean, most of that is quite intuitive (mags go in the mag pouches, Bloggins) while the rest, if required, can be hammered out in a section SOP (ok guys, lets have a bandage here - just in case someone wins an enemy marksmanship prize...).  

I mean, in an ideal setup,   there is only a few places that a guy can stick first-line gear; he's got a few pouches on his LBE   and a functional assault-pack/hydration carrier that he can dump the junk in (rats/socks/porn/support ammo).   Is a couple pouches really so complicated that it has to come with instructions?   I think Kevin has said that we're moving away from the "Pre-9/11" mentality of putting the kitchen sink on the first-line load out.  

It's funny how we in Canada have adopted "mission command" and "commander's intent" as part of our Maneuverist Doctrine yet we still insist on straight-jacketing our approach to loadouts.   With a decent kit list and some SOP's any small unit can have the Sergeant/Lt explain what the situation we'll be going into is and have the troops use their initiative and judgment (aren't these the magical things we are always trying to encourage?) to best figure out (or follow the lead of those who can) how to prepare for battle in the manner that suits their unique role, kit, physique, and preference.

Cheers,

Infanteer - who never makes Ding Chavez dress the same gear as the others.

(PS: Wait until I get my camera up and running and show of my new TacTailor A-Pack/Hellcat 3 porn....)

 

[Canadian Sig]

*SLF (Slow Reaction Farce) is a QRF trademark of RotoII B Coy 1PPCLI   ;D

  Kevin,

I'm pretty sure the French beat you to it. During Roto 0 A few of us sigs caught 2 locals stealing explosives from the Halo Trust demo range. We were out in the French sector so when we called to ask what to do with these two we were told that the French qrf would come and take them off our hands.........and 3 hours later they did! No wonder they did so well in both world wars! :threat:

 

[KevinB]

Yeah - but they showed up...


  Better than the Germans who's solution to those pesky folk who shoot that them was just not to patrol that area  - Hmm, more rocket attacks from the unpatrolled German sector - go figure  :



Infanteer -- The AAR's we have gotten at work seems to allow troops the leeway --
  We have A LOT of leeway at work and our chain is really diggin the WARRIOR / GUNFIGHTER mentality.  3VP brought Grossman by for the leadership symposium, and I cant say enough about him.
 

 

[Gunnerlove]

  I am really looking forward to getting the small pack. Then I will have a place to stuff the misc junk I need to do my job as well as the rest of a decent ammo load.