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LSVW what happened?

Trogdor

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I've been searching the forums and I simply can't find what I want to know.

Does anyone here know why we chose to buy the LSVW?  I mean from what I hear it had failed the army's trials over and over again. 

I heard a rumour that it was due to Defence Minister at the time Kim Campbell.  Something about her having a stake in the company financially or that the factory where they were to be built was inher riding or something.

However, I don't know for sure the actually history of this choice. Can someone enlighten me as to what the freak happened with that project?
 
You had to bring up the Kim Campbell special, didn't you?

 
Well I just want to know what happened.  I mean I've heard a lot of rumours but never any definitive answer as to why she made us get that truck.
 
Wolfe117 said:
Well I just want to know what happened.  I mean I've heard a lot of rumours but never any definitive answer as to why she made us get that truck.

......and typical of back room, political decisions, you likely never will. One thing you can rest assured of, it wasn't because of the quality and durability.
 
Well can anyone tell me if the Western star factory where they were produced was in fact in her riding?
 
Wolfe117 said:
Well can anyone tell me if the Western star factory where they were produced was in fact in her riding?

Her riding was in British Columbia and so is Western Star.
 
I'm not sure of the "true" story, and I'm not sure i want to.  But yes the LSVW is a great vehicle in principle only.  I was in only a few years when it first made their appearance.  I do know for sure that it failed all of our testing. And was sent to the states to get tested, and I'm sure we paid for them to pass it.  i did take a couple of them to the western star dealer for warranty repair.  and nearly got thrown out of the dealer when i arrived.  the manager told me that no one and the dealer and other dealers at the time would believe that western star would put their name on such a vehicle.  and on a personal note.  I am surprised that a plastic truck rusts.  
 
The Factory, (at the time) was in Kelowna.  Some history for you on the then Western Star Company:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Motor_Company
From the 1950 until 1975, White Motors distributed Freightliner trucks under a agreement with Freightliner's parent, Consolidated Freightways Inc. by Volvo Trucks. White manufactured, under its own brands - White, Autocar and Western Star, as well, leading to the company becoming known as the "Big Four" through to the mid-70s.

By 1980, White was insolvent, despite importing Semon E. "Bunkie" Knudsen, son of General Motors legend Semon Knudsen, and President of Ford Motor Co. in 1969-70. AB Volvo acquired the U.S. assets of the company, while two, energy-related companies based in Calgary, AB, Bow Valley Resource Services and Nova, an Alberta Corp., purchased the Canadian assets, including the Kelowna, B.C., plant, and the Western Star nameplate and product range.

Auto World - May 1991
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3165/is_n5_v27/ai_10746616
AUSTRALIAN DISTRIBUTOR BUYS WESTERN STAR

Western Star Truck Inc. has been purchased by its distributor, Western Star Trucks, Australia.

Bought for an undisclosed price, the sale was announced at the Mid-America Truck Show in Louisville, Ky. A holding company, Western Star International Ltd., has been set up to control both Western Star Australia and Western Star North America.

The Mississauga, Ontario-based maker of customized Class 8 trucks had been jointly owned by Nova Corp. and Bovar Inc., both of Calgary, Alberta, since 1981 when Western Star was formed out of the Canadian assets of bankrupt White Motor Co. The sale allows Nova and Bovar to concentrate on their core businesses -- oil and gas. The companies reportedly had been trying to sell Western Star since the mid-'80s..............

Western Star recently inked an agreement with Iveco BV of Italy to assemble 3,000 light trucks for the Canadian Armed Forces.


http://www.thewednesdayreport.com/twr/gulfwar/twr12v5.htm
LSVW COMPETITION HEATS UP AS PMO EVALUATES BIDS THIS WEEK

The Light Support Vehicle Wheeled (LSVW) Project which will replace Mobile Command's geriatric fleet of 2,800 rusting, 5/4 ton Chevrolet cargo trucks has entered into the evaluation phase with the submission of four bids to the Military Operational Support Trucks Programme Management Office (MOST PMO). Competing for the contract to supply up to 3,300 vehicles in five configurations are Freightliner of Canada Ltd./Mercedes Benz Trucks; Invar Manufacturing Ltd. of Batawa, Ontario with Chrysler Canada; UTDC Inc. of Kingston, Ontario teamed with Steyr-Daimler-Puch AG of Austria; and Western Star Trucks Inc. in Kelowna, British Columbia associated with IVECO of Italy.

Colonel Malcolm Campbell, MOST Programme Manager said that evaluation teams gathered on Monday morning to begin reviewing four proposals which were submitted in time to meet the March 11 deadline. Six other companies which were also issued a Request For Proposal (RFP) in September 1990 — including British Aerospace, Flexicoil, Ford Canada, General Motors of Canada Diesel Division, LTV, and Oerlikon Aerospace — subsequently withdrew from the competition.

Campbell says that DND is seeking to acquire "a commercial vehicle with military enhancements" having a capacity in the range of 1.5 to 2.0 metric tonnes. The vehicle will be required to carry a shelter, three men and a trailer load. As price will be a major factor in determining the value of the contract, the new LSVW will represent a "minimum cost replacement to replace the existing capability". Central to the four bids is the vehicle being offered by each contending team.

Invar Manufacturing Ltd. submitted a uniquely all-Canadian bid disclosing that the main cab and chassis unit of its proposed vehicle is the Chrysler Canada Dodge W350 truck fitted with a turbo-charged diesel engine and a four-wheel drive line. The W350 truck would come directly off the Chrysler Canada production line and modifications to such parts as axles and tires would be undertaken by Chrysler prior to shipment to Invar for completion of the militarization. Company officials at Invar say they are pleased to be able to propose "the only all-Canadian bid" and single out this uniqueness as what they believe to be a `leg over' in the competition.

UTDC has proposed the `Noriker', a vehicle adapted by Steyr-Daimler-Puch for military applications which includes commercially proven equipment from the Volkswagen LT vehicle series. Bob Gawley, manager of Marketing and Communications at UTDC says that his company will provide a prototype built and tested in Austria and fully compliant with RFP specifications. The prototype will undergo further testing in Kingston to ensure that Canadian components can be successfully integrated into the vehicle.

Western Star Trucks hopes to fulfill DND's LSVW requirement with the IVECO (Fiat) Model 40.10 built by Western Star under Licensing Agreement with IVECO. The IVECO 40.10 is designed to perform for a twenty-year lifetime and is currently in military service with at least ten NATO countries. The Western Star LSVW bid contains the support of its dealer network which includes a dealership adjacent to every Canadian Forces Base in Canada.

Campbell told The Wednesday Report that Freightliner is offering a `Unimog' vehicle. Oddly, when contacted on Monday, Freightliner of Canada President John Mosier said he did not know if he should reveal this or other details of his company's bid. He was invited to think about it, but no further response had been received from his firm at press time.

The winning bid is expected to be announced between August and September and deliveries of the LSVWs will commence one year following the contract award. Campbell has been given no indication that the LSVW Project will be affected by budget constraints.

http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2000/07/19/2western000719.html
Western Star and Freightliner to merge
After the close of trading Wednesday, Western Star Trucks said it will be bought by DaimlerChrysler's Freightliner unit in a deal worth $670 million.

Oregon-based Freightliner, North America's largest heavy-duty truck producer, will pay $42 per share for all issued and outstanding shares of Kelowna-based Western Star. The two companies had been rumoured to be linking up and Western Star's shares were halted all day on the Toronto Stock Exchange.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You can probably read between the lines on this next document:

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/est-pre/19971998/CDND97E.PDF
pages 67-68

Light Support Vehicle Wheeled (LSVW) Project

1. Overview
The objective of the Light Support Vehicle Wheeled (LSVW) project is to acquire a minimum of 2,879
vehicles and associated logistics support to replace the 5/4 ton militarized commercial trucks which were
purchased in 1976. Authority was given for the procurement of an additional 128 vehicles which
increased the quantity from 2,751 to 2,879 vehicles.

On 1 March 1992, following a competitive bid process, a contract was awarded to Western Star
Trucks Inc. of Kelowna, British Columbia. Production of the vehicles commenced in February 1994 and
was completed in March 1996.

2. Lead and Participating Departments
• Lead Authority: Department of National Defence
• Service Department: Public Works and Government Services Canada
• Third Parties: Industry Canada
Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency
Western Economic Diversification Canada
Federal Office of Regional Development (Quebec)

3. Prime and Major Sub-Contractors, Address

Prime contractor: Western Star, Kelowna B. C.
Sub- contractor: Iveco, Bolzano Italy
DEW Engineering , Ottawa Ont.

4. Major Milestones
• Award of Contracts Mar 1992
• Prototype Delivery Sep 1992
• First Full Production Delivery Feb 1994
• Last Delivery Mar 1996
• Project Completion Mar 1998

5. Achievements and Explanations of Variances
T h e p roject completion has been delayed by one year and is now scheduled for March 1998. This one
year extension is primarily as a result of delays in obtaining the initial provision of repair parts.

6. Industrial benefits
The industrial and regional benefits commitment of Western Star Trucks Inc. includes direct in-vehicle
Canadian Content totalling approximately $103.5 million (1991 dollars) distributed as follows:

$ (millions)
Atlantic Region 3.9
Quebec Region 6.4
Ontario Region 32.2
Western Region 61.0

Achievements: to March 31,1996, the achievements are as follows:
• direct IRB’s $127.4 million
• Indirect IRB’s $79.3 million
• small business participation and development.

7. Summary of Costs
The non-recurring costs associated with the approved project are:

Figure 60: Cost and Expenditure Detail
(thousands of dollars)

Currently          Forecast         Future

Estimated          Expenditures     Years

Total           To March 31 Estimates   Require-

Cost           1997     1997-98       ments

              273,419     256,107                     17,312 -----

Once the Light Support Vehicle Wheeled (LSVW) is fully operational, the total reduction in
Personnel, Operations and Maintenance cost is estimated at $1.1 million.




http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?pub=hansard&mee=92&parl=35&ses=1&language=E
Monday, September 19, 1994

Question No. 59-Mr. Lavigne:

    With respect to the program to replace the 5/4 tonne vehicles built by General Motors for the Department of National Defence, (a) what is the cost of the new vehicle acquisition program, (b) what are the results of the tests carried out on these vehicles (i) by National Defence personnel and (ii) by civilian contractors, and (c) what is the value of the contracts awarded to civilian contractors to carry out these tests?

5827

Mr. Fred Mifflin (Parliamentary Secretary to Minister of National Defence and Minister of Veterans Affairs): The light support vehicle wheeled (LSVW) is the replacement for the 1 1/4 ton trucks built by General Motors. The LSVW is being produced by Western Star Trucks Inc. (WSTI) with a contract cost of $224.3M.

The LSVW has undergone one of the most comprehensive and thorough test programs ever undertaken by the Department of National Defence (DND) with a wheeled support vehicle system. Throughout this testing, as problems were identified, WSTI developed solutions and fully validated those solutions to DND's satisfaction. Because of these problems, the LSVW was judged to have failed the initial reliability, availability maintainability and durability (RAMD) tests conducted by DND in Canada. To validate the final modifications, WSTI was obligated to conduct a second set of RAMD tests at its expense at a test site fully acceptable to DND.

To avoid delays in fielding the LSVW, it was necessary to change the test site to the Nevada automotive test centre (NATC) because snow conditions in Petawawa masked the test track terrain, in effect reducing its severity. The testing carried out at the NATC was more severe than that encountered in Canada. Furthermore, to thoroughly prove the modifications, operation was skewed so that the largest percentage of testing was over severe cross-country. The terrain at the NATC is rugged and temperatures varied considerably. The NATC is a top-notch test facility with a worldwide reputation which has tested some 1,000 systems for the U.S. Department of Defense and major vehicle manufacturers. It is noteworthy that the LSVW has undergone more testing over more varied and more demanding conditions than any other wheeled army vehicle. This testing was continuously supervised by three to four Canadian forces engineers and technicians.

RAMD has done its intended job of identifying problem to permit the Canadian army and the manufacturer to fully debug the equipment prior to final production. As a result of this second test by NATC, all modifications were proven out and the vehicle was found to be fully acceptable.

The contract to NATC was paid for and managed by WSTI.



Tuesday, November 28, 1995
http://www.parl.gc.ca/35/Archives/committees351/govo/evidence/71_95-11-28/govo71_blk101.html

.1108

The Chairman: I call the meeting to order.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I would like to welcome and thank the Department of National Defence for appearing before the committee today. Colleagues, I would particularly like to introduce to you Mr. John McLure, the associate deputy minister; Mr. Pierre Lagueux, the assistant deputy minister; and Mr. Rick Burton, the general manager of materiel control and business management. Jean Boyle is not coming.


.1140

Mr. Bryden: It's very important, because I'm a numbers man. I like to see numbers before me so I can understand what's going on and see trends for myself.

I'll go on a little bit. I'm also interested in whatever history you can supply me with on what's called the light support vehicle wheeled project, LSVW, which has been subject to some controversy over the past while. There are a series of contracts that have been in some difficulty. Perhaps you could give us some detail about that. You can comment on it, if you like. But again, that's the kind of thing I'd like to look at to see as a model for what's going on....

.....<snip>.......

Mr. Bryden: I would like you to go a little bit further there and tell me the distinction between a classified audit and a non-classified audit. What is it I can't see? Can I see the audit of the LSVW?

Mr. Lagueux: If an audit was performed, I would expect it. But there are projects that procure classified material. Therefore, the audits of those projects would be classified.

Mr. Bryden: So it would have to be classified, like electronic equipment?

Mr. Lagueux: Yes.


http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/scondva/engraph/200498_e.asp
SCONDVA - Transcript - Monday, April 20, 1998

.2130
The Chairman: Corporal Tom Paisley.

Corporal Tom Paisley (Individual Presentation): Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. I have a few points.

......<snip>................

• 2135

And who decides what vehicles we buy? We bought the LSVW. I know three people personally who were on the committee that tested the LSVW and told them not to buy it. We go out on exercise and we have to come into a hide quietly. What's the first thing you hear?....................

http://www.journal.dnd.ca/engraph/Vol2/no2/pdf/59-66_e.pdf

footnote 36. Edgar and Haglund, p. 73. Some might
argue that even the issue of being operationally
acceptable is debatable. The vehicle problems
associated with the recent LSVW project are
considered by many to be a clear example of
IRB issues taking precedence over operational
capability. See the Land Engineering Test
Establishment LSVW Reliability, Availability,
Maintainability, Durability (RAMD) Test
Report of 20 May 1994 for details on the oper-
ational problems associated with the vehicle.


SENATE OF CANADA
Proceedings of the Standing
Senate Committee on
National Security
and Defence

http://parl11.parl.gc.ca/39/1/parlbus/commbus/senate/Com-e/defe-e/pdf/03issue.pdf

Monday, June 12, 2006 (in camera)
Page 138

The Forces will also soon need to replace its smaller logistics vehicle, the Light
Support Vehicle, Wheeled (LSVW). The LSVW is used throughout the battlefield
in such roles as troop transport, medical evacuation, maintenance, administration
and light cargo. It is transportable in a CC-130 Hercules aircraft.
These vehicles are, on average, 12 years old and will go beyond their service life
around the end of the decade.
The Light Support Vehicle, Wheeled (LSVW) provides transportation capacity
between that of the smaller Iltis and G-Wagon, and the larger 2 ½ ton Medium
Logistic Vehicle, Wheeled (MLVW). It is based on Italy’s Iveco Model 40.10 and
was built at the Kelowna plant of Western Star.
The LSVW's cargo capacity is too small for traditional tactical loads. Large
stowage boxes and a spare tire mount behind the cab result in a fairly short cargo
bed. To overcome the space restrictions, LSVW’s often tow an 850 kg trailer to
provide adequate carrying capacity. Towing trailers and piling on the cargo

exacerbates the LSVW’s other key limitation – the rather anaemic power provided
by its Fiat 2.5 litre diesel engine.
The LSVW is unpopular. It has been criticized for poor handling, top-heaviness,
unreliable brakes and transmission, and awkward engine access amongst other
things. However, much of the difficulty resulted from the original specifications.
The Department emphasized fuel efficiency and low purchase price when they
were looking for a new light support truck. That is what it got – a vehicle with top
speeds of 25 km/h off-road and only 90km/h on pavement.
Neither the small engine (only 115 hp despite turbo-charging) nor the weak
automatic transmission is adequate for tough military operational support duties.
The transmission occasionally pops out of gear under stress. Fading breaks and
rust have shown up far too early in the lives of these vehicles.
In the end the Canadian Forces got what they paid for – caveat emptor.105

The Committee believes that the Forces will require approximately 4,700
replacements for these trucks as the Army transforms into a larger, but lighter and
more mobile force. The Committee estimates that the cost of replacing the Light
Support Vehicle Wheeled will be $700-750 million. Replacing them as they reach
the end of their mandate service life will reduce excessive maintenance costs to
keep them running longer.
The Committee believes that planning for the next generation of Light Support
Vehicles should take into consideration the likely need to equip some or all of
them with armour.

The Committee recommends that:
33. The Government should accelerate the acquisition of the next generation
of light support vehicles, with the intent to take first delivery no later
than 2011.
 
George Wallace said:
::)

What is this compulsive questioning leading to?  You are a Reserve Cpl according to your profile.  I wonder why the childish insistance in your questioning.  Perhaps if you learned to do some research you could find out.  Here is a site that may help you the Wayback Machine

I'm on a dirvers course right now.  So it sparked my interest to find out why exactly the choice was made to buy it.  Just for general knowledge.
 
Ah, what's a "dirvers" course? Just messing with you.


Cheers,
TN2IC
 
Wolfe117 said:
I'm on a dirvers course right now.  So it sparked my interest to find out why exactly the choice was made to buy it.  Just for general knowledge.
brother, I think this is one of those cases where ignorance is bliss. The truth probably just made you more cynical and jaded, huh?
 
paracowboy said:
brother, I think this is one of those cases where ignorance is bliss. The truth probably just made you more cynical and jaded, huh?

Yup, because the one thing this place really needs more of is more jaded cynics  8)
 
Wolfe117 said:
Well can anyone tell me if the Western star factory where they were produced was in fact in her riding?

No, the MP for Kelowna at the time was Al Horning, a PC rep.  However, the Associate Minister was Mary Collins, who happened to be from North Vancouver.  IIRC (and I had something to do with the project on the peripheries), it was Collins who directed the purchase based on IRB considerations.  I remember chatting with both the PD (again, IIRC) and a couple of the EME advisors who were none too impressed.  ::)
 
As price will be a major factor in determining the value of the contract, the new LSVW will represent a "minimum cost replacement to replace the existing capability"

:rofl:
 
Exactly my thoughts, I took a calculator to it last night...
2879 trucks divided by 224 300 000.00 dollars = $77908.99 each
granted, different pods and configs, so that's an average price.

 
Wonder what they'll end up replacing them with. Anyone here ever driven one with an armour kit on it?  I figure they'd probably be really front heavy with that thing on them.

On another note anyone know if they've decided which truck will replace the MLVW?  I have had my money on the Oshcosh.  highest level of protection out of the bunch I hear.

Here's a marine one in Iraq
LAND_MTVR_w_MCATS_Gunshields_lg.jpg


 
George Wallace said:
::)

What is this compulsive questioning leading to?  You are a Reserve Cpl according to your profile.  I wonder why the childish insistance in your questioning.  Perhaps if you learned to do some research you could find out.  Here is a site that may help you the Wayback Machine
Do You have a problem with Reserves ? Would it had been better if he was in the Regs ?
Many a soldier has asked that question when they first see and drive/ride it .
 
startbutton said:
Do You have a problem with Reserves ? Would it had been better if he was in the Regs ?
Many a soldier has asked that question when they first see and drive/ride it .

Reel in your neck. It has nothing to do with it. Don't like a comment? PM and ask him. Just keep it civil and off the thread.
 
old medic said:
Exactly my thoughts, I took a calculator to it last night...
2879 trucks divided by 224 300 000.00 dollars = $77908.99 each
granted, different pods and configs, so that's an average price.

That's actually pretty cheap, it's a government contract. A big part of the answer is in what you wrote. Less than 3000 vehicles, that's a very very small production run thus the price increases per unit. R&D costs as well as set up costs have to amortized over smaller number of units. Also, like I said, it's a gov't contract, there is all sorts additional costs included. Ever look at the price tag of G-Wagon?
 
Well, by comparison, the Ottawa Citizen quoted the original price of the Iltis at $84,000 each.  Guess you don't get what you pay for...  :-\
 
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