LSVW what happened?

[WogCpl]

As for finding a use for the LS, give them to all of the schools throughout Canada and use them for training only. Operationally, i cant see anything good about them unless your just running around the FOB. I worked on and drove all 3 of the trucks you mentioned LR, and I can say with a great deal of experience that the LS is a POS. I liked my M113 Fitter better than my LS, now thats saying something, us in the Regs never got the CUCV, that was given to the reserves only, the only imporvement I can see in changing from the 5/4 to the LS is that the LS is diesel. The CUCV was great for about 250 000km, then the blocks would crack and the crankshaft would snap in two. The hummer is a good solid truck with the 6.5L diesel and a 2.5 ton payload (not the earlier 6.2, same engine as the CUCV), not to mention the parts are easy to get, the $73 000 dollar price tag on the LS included spare parts for each truck, by the way . As far as an ML frame, forget it. The ML was underpowered from day 1 the 8.2 fuel pincher just does not have enough snot to get it moving, although i must admit that i have never changed many of them. Wook, your right about the brakes too, DOT has not let prime movers on the road with air over hydraulic single cyl master cylinders brake systems since the late 60's but they are still legal on trailers. In short, we really have no operational need for an LSVW, as log as we have the "G" for a whistle head runner and maybe an ML type veh(oshkosh or FMTV) as a tpt/cargo truck. I think that we can all agree that force protection is paramount and hopefully we don't see CSS guys doing anything in an LS operationally. I still remember how gutless my LS up armored MRT w/nonworking airconditioner was going round trip to Bihac, after that one trip it stayed on camp and i used the Bison!

 

[recoverygod]

I do agree that everyone complains about the kit that is issued.  We are Canadian, its our past time.  But when I am changing and engine with in 2 weeks of delivery, there is an issue.  The LS is a POS  no doubt.  and nothing can be done about it now.  The MILCOT Idea is a great idea.  For one of many main reasons, Quality control.  the vehicle that is sent out, is most part ready to go.  the LS had QA problems as well.  As for the ML.  I love that truck.  it is very solid, and yes it could use a better engine, but apart from that.  its a great truck, and if a engine replacement was done, the truck would last for ever.  That's my 3 cents in

 

[Wookilar]

FatwogCpl,

Yes, to all the above. I really don't see the need for such a small vehicle, especially when the price tag for replacement is not really that far off from the ML replacement project.

Saying that you actually liked your Fitter has me wondering about your sanity though  ;D. FRG in Calgary? (I was BRP then FRG for the move to Edmonton).

Imagine: an Army without an under-powered, over-weighted vehicle. All Ambs, MRT's (anything with a SEV box) on a medium truck frame (except for the few heavies on HL frames). A whole line of parts, gone out of the system. One less vehicle type to manage, same number of vehicle totals. What a wonderful world we could live in. Ohh well, at least we got the whole fleet on diesel now. Only took 100 years.

Wook

 

[WogCpl]

My fitter was great, we had a resurgence in 1 svc bn a couple years ago (2001ish) and used them on every ex! The heater always worked and nav with the PLGR was simple cause it was all x-country, on the down side my elbows did tend to get a little beat up in the crew cmdrs hatch. Both my personalities also question my sanity, so i guess all three of us think i'm nuts.
I am with you Wook, we really have no need for a "little" truck.
RecGod, as far as the ML goes, i think it's had it's day, i will agree that the frame and drive train are bulletproof but i hate changeing battery boxes and fenders, and i have yet to be in one in the winter and find a heater that will put out enough BTU's to at least keep my canteen from freezing. I would scap both the ML and LS and go with the FMTV or Oshkosh if i had my way.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The MLVW had lots of issues when they came out and the 5/4 tons were useless offroad, especially the box versions. There is nothing about the M35 design that can’t be updated and there are armour kits available for it. I would like to see the old deuce spare tire hanger design brought back, simple and workable. The LSVW screeching is a brake lining issue from what I can tell, I also see people traveling around the world in IVECO based trucks and they are happy with them. Europeon vehicles have always depended more on the gearbox to provide the right amount of torque rather than a larger engine. I find many North Americans concept of successful offroad is merely pushing the gas pedal to the metal and going till they stop.

The G-wagons are a decent design for a ¼ ton truck, and the Pinzauger is still in production and is a proven military design, they could be replacing the LSVW with them right now if they wanted to.

 

[lostrover]

Take at the remanufacturing of the M35 into the M35A2 and A3 variants, same engine and transmission as the FMTV's, CTIS, all kinds of goodies on a simple platform (and yes the air over hydraulic issue was dealt with).  I haven't a clue how to attach a picture on here, but for a feasible option to an LSVW, take an MLVW and remove one rear axle, and go the route of an M35A3.   Imagine a fleet of three support vehicles all sharing common components.

http://www.m35products.com/images/shorty2lg.jpg  Add a SEV box to it and off we go.  I will try to locate a paper I had written on the M35A2-3 project with relevant references (yeah continuing studies was fun).  

 

[WogCpl]

Colin I agree, but EVERYTHING about the ML needs to be updated. from the grease lubed wheel bearings you need to put a chunk of cork in to keep the gear oil out on up.
I will agree we need to keep mil vehicles simple, personally i am still a big fan of vehicles that can still operate if the electrical system goes in the toilet,(at least you can limp your @ss out).
Iveco's are good...for europe. for short people driving twisty little roads sure. but for trying to run from an ambush or escape an IED, i'll take horsepower.
And as far as off roading goes, wheel spin is the enemy, regardless of how much power you have some people just haven't figured that out yet.

 

[lostrover]

Well I have yet to see a vehicle that will outrun a bullet/rpg or what have you.  Yes faster moving vehicles present a harder target to hit (lead time is a bummer), but if the bad guys want to get you, regardless they will (my personla view)

And as far as off roading goes, wheel spin is the enemy, regardless of how much power you have some people just haven't figured that out yet.

Yet some say there is not a lack of driver training, and currently overseas in the light fleet there are alot of band-aid attempts to overcome the shortfalls of training, and reasoning.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Colin I agree, but EVERYTHING about the ML needs to be updated. from the grease lubed wheel bearings you need to put a chunk of cork in to keep the gear oil out on up.
I will agree we need to keep mil vehicles simple, personally i am still a big fan of vehicles that can still operate if the electrical system goes in the toilet,(at least you can limp your @ss out).
Iveco's are good...for europe. for short people driving twisty little roads sure. but for trying to run from an ambush or escape an IED, i'll take horsepower.
And as far as off roading goes, wheel spin is the enemy, regardless of how much power you have some people just haven't figured that out yet.

Hey I drive a Landrover with Ligmun Vitate bushings!!! Cork gaskets are nice because it's easy to make your own. The MLVW never struck me as a happy meeting between the engine and tranny. I do remember the increase horsepower was nice over the old 302 inline 6 in the deuce, not to mention the fuel range increase! The 5tons were in really rough shape when I was driving them and the gas wrecker were all on their last legs. Going to Germany and watching the MAN trucks and that MAN wrecker(thing of beauty)was pure joy!!!

 

[WogCpl]

Ah the 5 ton! I can not believe that people complained about getting rid of that wrecker to make way for the HLVW.
Q: Why do brits drink warm beer?
A: Lucas makes fridges!
A little Landrover/Triumph humor for you Colin, and if your rovers a gasser, you'll definately know what i am talking about ;D.
Hey, if we had defenders, i would be all for a re-life project, but we might as well start fresh and strike while the irons hot with our currently op focused CDS.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

3 positions of a Lucas switch:

1  flicker

2 dim

3 smoke

;D

All Lucas products worked on smoke, if the smoke escaped it didn't work anymore!!

Lucas made vacum cleaners for awhile, it was the only product they made that didn't suck 

My 87 Range Rover is an excellent vehicle, although a pig on gas. Disc brakes and coil springs work great off-road.

 

[recoverygod]

By design the Ml should have oil through the bearings.  It is an oiled lube design from day one.  The reason why we Greece them now is because the fleet doesn't move as much, so greasing them stopped the parts from rusting solid.  Which would actually improve the stupid park brake.  We should have bought the unimogs instead of ivecos.  yes iveco are great trucks.  but i rarely ever heard of a complaint from a unimog.  and you can now by them here in north America. At any freightliner dealer.  Which is owned by chrysler, who is owned by mercades. 

 

[AideMemoire]

When I was still in, I heard the prototype built and submitted for trials by Western Star (i.e., the one that passed those trials) incorporated a number of improvements over the sorely lacking original IVECO design.  As the story goes, as this new and improved unit was getting ready to go into production for CF, IVECO got wind of it and essentially told Western Star:

"You have a contract to build our truck under license, so you're going to build OUR truck under license, or you're in breach of contract."

Needless to say, IVECO appears to have had its way, and the Little Squeaky Vehicle Wheeled we all know and love entered service to replace the five-quads and CUCVs.  Personally, apart from watching entire formations of U.S. troops laughing their asses off as we passed them with our brakes screeching like a boiled cat, I didn't really mind them so much.  Cramped cab, poor ventilation, stupid high-idle neutral lockout which pissed us off when we were running line -- but halfway decent turning circle and not-too-shabby offroad compared to the CUCVs.    We did have a couple of outright dogs though.  One kept going back to ASU because you'd be driving along and suddenly you couldn't do anymore than about 50 km/h with your foot through the floor -- and each time it came back from (*cough*) 'repair' - it wound up doing the same thing on the way back to the unit.  Another one -- rad truck -- had some weird-ass wiring problems and either wouldn't charge or would grossly overcharge.  I was doing a shift in the back of that thing when the sigs batteries essentially started gassing out the pod.  Yeahnice.  P.O.S.  I certainly don't miss that one.

When we did Cougar Salvo one year we had a bunch of the DND procurement people and a bunch of Western Star folks present to see the LSVW's shortcomings in action.  One problem we had with the trucks was entirely DND's creation, as the comms pods originally designed specifically for the LSVW were nice and light and perfectly suited for the IVECO design -- but expensive -- so Ottawa elected to re-use the comms pods off of the old Five-Quads and CUCVs that the LS was replacing.  Those pods were re-skinned, had their internal arrangements changed around, and had extra stuff bolted on the outsides to support VIXAM masts etc. -- but were otherwise the same pod that was on the older vehicles.  The weight of this pod with all its associated kit (and CRTTZ was still around then - and that's a *lot* of add'l weight in a pod) apparently was too much given the specs of the IVECO design, and stuff began to bend and warp and crack and give out well before the vehicle and its components neared the end of their projected design life.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I haven't heard any italian soldier truely hate their version and the Inveco chassis is quite common on around the world caravans and the people that owned them were very happy with them. I think Western Star screwed up a fair bit all on their own.

 

[chrisf]

With regards to the speed limit of an SMP vehicle, I was recently "pooped" on by our course warrant on a drivers course, after he came up behind myself and a student on a highway doing approx 95km/h in an ML vs the "limit" of "80km/h". I was confident I had done nothing wrong, so we looked it up, and lo and behold, it is definitly max 100km/h, not to exceed posted limit.

 

[AideMemoire]

With regards to the speed limit of an SMP vehicle, I was recently "pooped" on by our course warrant on a drivers course, after he came up behind myself and a student on a highway doing approx 95km/h in an ML vs the "limit" of "80km/h". I was confident I had done nothing wrong, so we looked it up, and lo and behold, it is definitly max 100km/h, not to exceed posted limit.

I used to see DND SMP stuff of all shapes and sizes come out surplus with those "MAX SPEED 80 KM/H" stickers stuck somewhere, so at one point it must've been the reg for anything that wasn't a panel or a staff car.  Chances are pretty good your Warrant still has that stuck in his head from the early 1990's or whatever and figures nothing ever changes.  It definitely, definitely should be covered in the driver wheeled course though. 

 

[chrisf]

It's only changed in the last few years. maybe 2005.

 

[geo]

an old holdover from the Max 50 MPH from the Miles per hour generation.
50mph / 6 X 10 = 80 KPH

 

[AideMemoire]

an old holdover from the Max 50 MPH from the Miles per hour generation.
50mph / 6 X 10 = 80 KPH

Plus I guess the 80 km/h stickers gave the old gas-powered deuces something to strive for.

 

[geo]

Heh....
If you looked after your deuce & knew how to wind her up.... you would be amaazed at the speed you could get outa her..... however - trying to slow her down with those mud tires on a wet / slippery surface.... gives you some grey hair