• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Manufacturing history, or did it really happen? The CBC Strikes Again ..

whiskey601 said:
That was some time ago, and I don't recall anyting persuasive in the opinion that the territorial integrity of Quebec would be status quo. The borders of Quebec were arbitraily and artificially created by Royal proclamation, parts of which are of questionable validity in the current context. Personally, it seems to me the determining factor would be variations of the level of support within the voting ridings within succeeding territory, minus all first nation land claims. Basically, an ugly result.

I agree with what you're saying and I think that would be a large part of what would be negotiated.

paracowboy said:
yes, but if a Province is seceding, would it care what the Supreme Court of the nation it's seceding from had to say? After all, the ridiculous and flagrantly biased decisions of our hypothetical Supreme Court are part and parcel of why that province is leaving its' former country.

I think they would care, since if they want to cite that decision as confirmation of their right to separation (which they need to do) then they have to abide by that decision. While it wasn't the affirmative response to a right to "unilateral secession" that they wanted, it's enough. They'd also stand a MUCH worse chance of being recognized internationally if they separated "illegally" when the only legal condition placed on them (after an affirmative vote by a majority) was to negotiate their secession.

Infanteer said:
What is "Quebecois"?   Certainly Quebec (the province) doesn't have any significant claim for seperation - as Whiskey said, it is artiface, a province created by the British Crown.   Will all the Native groups of the PQ have the right to seperate from Quebec?

Is it language?   If I learn to speak French, does this give me equal entitlement to a French homeland, despite not living in Quebec?   What about the Anglo population of Quebec, which has only 150 years less heritage in the province.

Aren't we all Canadian?   Can I not move to the province of Quebec when I feel like it (aren't mobility rights guranteed by the Charter?).   So, if I am, as a Canadian, permitted to move to Quebec because it is part of my country, should I, and all other Canadians, not have a say in whether a group of people decides to take Crown land (meaning "all of ours") away from us?   How long does it take to become a Quebecois?   Does 6 months in St. Jean cut it?

You're preaching to the choir - I love Quebec and I have a great deal of respect and affection for French-Canadian culture but I don't believe they should have the right to secede. Unfortunately, the Supreme Court disagrees.
 
From what I understand, the 1998 Supreme Court Reference and the 1999 Clarity Bill made it much harder for the Seperatiste crowd - it seems to me that no "unilateral" declaration of independence means that more is needed then a simple "Oui" vote.

Anyways, found an interesting passage that was in my head after reading and agreeing with Ape's original post:

To set and protect its own interests, Canada needed to set clear and demanding rules and conditions under which secession could take place.   By making clear the difficulties and costs involved in separation, moreover, such rules might well cause Quebeckers to think twice before voting Yes in the next independence referendum.   This was Plan B.

The essential components of Plan B were set out in a remarkable exchange of open letters in the late summer of 1997 between Stephane Dion, the federal minister for intergovernmental affairs, and the premier (Lucien Bouchard) and deputy premier (Bernard Landry) of Quebec.   Dion's version of Plan B had three main elements.   First, although Quebec was entitled to separate, a unilateral declaration of independence (UDI) would be illegal under both Canadian constitutional law and international law.   If Quebec wished to respect the rule of law, separation would have to be achieved through an amendment of the existing Canadian constitution.   Since such an amendment would require the consent of other Canadian legislatures, including the Parliament of Canada, the details of the disengagement - e.g., the division of the debt - would have to be negotiated first, while Quebec was still part of Canada, not after a UDI.   As part of this dimension of its Plan B strategy, the Chretien government had referred the question of the legality of a UDI to the Supreme Court of Canada [which, as we discussed above, makes it clear that a UDI is not permissable - Infanteer]

Second, Dion questioned the assumption that a 50 percent plus one Yes vote in an independence referendum would be sufficient to trigger even a legal secession process.   "Secession, the act of choosing between one's fellow citizens," argued Dion, "is one of the most consequence-laden choices a society can ever make."   It is one of those "virtually irreversible changes that deeply affect not only our own lives but also those of future generations," and should thus be subject to more than an ordinary majority decision rule.   "It would be too dangerous," he continued, "to attempt such an operation in an atmosphere of division, on the basis of a narrow, 'soft' majority...which could evaporate in the face of difficulties."   A more substantial consensus would have to be shown.

Third, Dion raised the contentious issue of the partition of Quebec.   If Quebec could separate from Canada, he suggested, parts of Quebec might with equal legitimacy secede from Quebec and remain in Canada.   Dion highlighted the right of Quebec's Aboriginal peoples to remain in Canada.   This example was no doubt strategically chosen, for immediately before the 1995 referendum, three Aboriginal nations held their own votes on whether to stay in an independent Quebec.   "The Cree voted 96% No; the Inuit voted 95% No; and the French-speaking Montagnais voted an astonishing 99% No."   Clearly, there would be pressure for the partition of Quebec, and Dion asserted that no one could "predict that the borders of an independent Quebec would be those now guaranteed by the Canadian Constitution."

Archer, Gibbons, Knopff, Pal, Parameters of Power: Canada's Political Institutions; pp 120-121.

Needless to say, I agree with Dion's assertions.


 
Good passage. I'd never heard of that before. It seems to me that excising one of the provinces, especially one as large as Quebec, would be so costly and difficult that it's possible the public will would drain away before it could be done (as the passage makes reference to).
 
"have gripes credible enough to warrant separation, though the right exists. I'm not saying we should go the way of the US during the Civil War (though I believe they were right and am not entirely opposed to the idea here) or Russia with the Chechens but we shouldn't just roll over and say "uncle" either."

- From such thinking, blood flows.

-The idea is to make it as PAINLESS and as PROFITABLE as possible for all concerned.  This is nothing new.  Countries move their borders all the time.  Last I looked, Poland was doing just fine.

-Let them go.  Let them keep whatever they want.  If the north of the province explodes in a  follow on secessionist movement, don't get involved, and just let Darwin take his course. 

Then, adapt our own constitution so NEVER AGAIN can one social/cultural group hold an entire nation of 33,000,000 people hostage to the point where we let down our allies and cost lives.

Tom
 
I agree with your reasoning on your last post, Tom. I also feel that the people in the province of Ontario would have a much greater heartache then those from the western provinces, if Quebec was to make a concerted effort to separate from Canada. If Quebec was to leave I don't think there would be much point in having the Ontario powerbase continuing to abuse the folks in the west.

I suspect cooler heads will prevail and I find it highly unlikely Canadians in any province will get sucked into a death spiral that will allow any province to leave without a very painful separation.
 
maybe I'm just obtuse, but I seem to missing something. If a province decides to secede from the nation, why would it care what the Supreme Court of that nation has to say about it? Why would a province care whether the secession was "illegal"? They are leaving the country in which that ruling applies, and starting their own, or joining another. The laws of the previous nation to which they belonged no longer apply.

If New Brunswick decided today, "That's it! We're outta here!" it wouldn't matter what Ottawa had to say about it. They're gone. Unless Ottawa decided to use force, it's a done deal, Supreme Court or not.

What have I missed?
 
paracowboy said:
maybe I'm just obtuse, but I seem to missing something. If a province decides to secede from the nation, why would it care what the Supreme Court of that nation has to say about it? Why would a province care whether the secession was "illegal"? They are leaving the country in which that ruling applies, and starting their own, or joining another. The laws of the previous nation to which they belonged no longer apply.

If New Brunswick decided today, "That's it! We're outta here!" it wouldn't matter what Ottawa had to say about it. They're gone. Unless Ottawa decided to use force, it's a done deal, Supreme Court or not.

What have I missed?

Quebec seperatistes know that the international community won't regard a seccession as legitimate - their political capital will be nil and no one will care when we march in and throw them into jail.

As the Supreme Court says, it must be legal - meaning both parties recognize things as being done right - to be recognized; the government of Canada has to say "uncle".

As you say, the power of force has more weight than legality (look at the American Revolution), but I don't think there is much of a credible threat in Canada of that (look what we did with the FLQ).
 
They would not be separate for long once they got their share of the bill we as a Nation owe.It would break them right off the bat.
Also  I don't think they would get any financing and if they did they would be owned by whom ever loaned them the money and the running of their new land in regards to natural resources etc. would be dictated by said money lenders.
 
We're still going back the the Supreme Court, here. I'm suggesting that if Quebec decides tomorrow that they no longer subject to Canadian Law, the Supreme Court's rulings are, for them, invalid. And as for the debt Canada owes, that would be Canada's problem, not the sovereign nation of Quebec's. They can simply say "We ain't a gonna pay". Canada can then say "Yes you are" but if they decide not pay, they don't have to pay. They're a seperate country.

And I'm certain they could find any number of other countries to recognize them. They may not be countries with any real pull, but if Mozambique, RhodesiaZimbabwe, East Timor, and Belize decide to recognize Quebec, we've effectively gained a new entry into the League of Nations UN. Granted, they now owe whichever countries recognize their seperate status, but such is politics.

The only way Ottawa could prevent this is by use of force. And that ain't gonna happen. So, we'd have a rogue province (from Canada's point of view) ignoring the Law, and we'd have a seperate state (from Quebec's point of view) resisting an illegal aggressor.
 
The debt is irelevant.  if you want to collect it, you simply stop paying Pensions to those living in the area that broke away.  watch the negotiations start real quick then.

Tom
 
Oooh I forgot about that one. :o
You are a evil one you are Tom. ;D
 
There are actually two different outcomes possible; if a wealthy province were to decide to leave (Alberta, Ontario), they have the means to go it alone. Indeed, should Ontario or Alberta ever decide to take a walk, it is questionable if Canada would be able to survive. Who would pay the freight for the other provinces? Should the remaining provinces want out, they simply do not have the resource base (human, natural or financial) to carry on with anything approaching their current standard of living.

Of course if the Federal government were to scale back a lot of its "Social spending" and "redistributive" activity, and get out of areas like health, education and natural resources which are constitutionally mandated to the Provinces, then spending and taxes would be reduced to the point everyone would have a much higher standard of living anyway.
 
Haven't we gone "off topic" here?

On a practical nature - the chances of Alberta & BC separating from Canada are just as high as of Quebec deciding to go it alone... a lot of unhappy campers out there - everywhere... which is how the Canadian Reform Alliance & the Bloc Quebecois got their origins in Ottawa.

If you have listened to any of the Quebec rhetoric in the past - they have always talked about negociating their going their own way - no hostage taking, no grabbing whatever is out in the open, no nationalisation of others property and no Quebec "Renés" or "Louis" to replace the soaring Loonie.
 
To really test this theory, one only has to ask a couple of pointed questions.  Was the Royal Canadian Mint instructed to remove French from all of our currency being produced, in the event Quebec separated?  Was Supply and Services instructed to stop printing contracts, so as to remove half the documents, as there would no longer be a requirement to print everything in English and French?  Were any Government Translators put on notice?

Why would they?  NB is still a bilingual province.
 
Michael Moore does not like CBC by this article:

http://entertainment.sympatico.msn.ca/tv/articles/1318858.armx

Michael Moore weighs in on CBC dispute, calls lockout 'abhorrent'
September 16, 2005
TORONTO (CP) - Famed American documentarian Michael Moore demanded Friday that the CBC drop plans to air this weekend his Academy Award-winning film, Bowling for Columbine, because of the month-long lockout at the public broadcaster.
"I do not want my film being broadcast on the network unless it is willing to let its own workers back in to work and promises to bargain with them in good faith," Moore said in a statement Friday.
"CBC has locked out its union workers, an action that is abhorrent to all who believe in the rights of people to collectively bargain. Why the great and honourable CBC is behaving like an American corporation is beyond me."
Bowling for Columbine, an examination of America's obsession with guns and violence, is scheduled to air Sunday night on CBC and a spokesman for the broadcaster said the documentary will be shown despite Moore's objections.
"We've promoted the film heavily and our audiences are expecting it to be on," said Jason MacDonald. "We will broadcast it."
Moore won an Oscar for best documentary for the film in 2003.
He used his acceptance speech at the Oscar ceremony as an opportunity to launch a broadside against President George W. Bush and his participation in the war in Iraq, which had been launched only a few days earlier.



 
I can appreceate Mr Moore's position AND
I can appreceate the CBC management's position that "the show must go on"
 
www.moorecxposed.com

Michael Moore is a retard, who is in the business of pulling people's heartstrings with dubious facts and misrepresentations. Anyone who has seen Farenhype 9-11, or remembers the portly producer from such brilliant pieces as "What Terrorist Threat" (February 2001) can vouch for this.

His comments should be recognised for what they are, a thinly disguised attempt to keep his pathetic face in the news. 
 
Paracowboy...

If New Brunswick decided today, "That's it! We're outta here!"

;D That's really funny!! I'm a native Herringchoker and this ain't even fathomable because this province can't afford it...even it's was FREE!!  ;D Really really good one though....my taxes go each month to keep my Miramichi relatives in the cheques!! ^-^
 
Back
Top